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On October 20 2011 00:32 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:09 Deckkie wrote:On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. I am pretty sure there are enough Protoss that dont like the Colossus either. And I dont think there is anybody that wants the colossus removed without a proper replacement. (I get the feeling that, that is what you think is the case) Yeah; I mean, with my proper silver-level Zerg head on I detest Colossus because there we are, head to head, gateway/immortals/stargate versus ling/roach/hydra/muta, with a roughly equal burden of micro/macromanagement/positioning on each, and then bam, bam, bam the Protoss player gets to massively inflate the head-to-head DPS of his army in (say) the time it takes to make four units out of two robotics bays, without making it any harder to control or position his forces. In a couple of minutes we go from a situation where we would trade armies to one where absolutely everything I have dies in exchange for ten zealots. It's not imbalance, because obviously there are ways and means to deal with it. It's more that the most natural-feeling progression of the matchup (namely aggression and counter-aggression while working up the tech trees) funnels into this extremely abrupt and one-sided leathering, and to avoid it Zergs have had to skirt around the margins of 'natural' play, going for one-dimensional roach all-ins, or hydra timings, or weird zergling/infestor into hive tech. If the Colossus were replaced with something that wasn't just a DPS multiplier but required careful use, something that could be soft-countered with army control and positioning rather than flatly obliging me to rewind the last four minutes and make a spire instead, the rebalancing of the races that could ensue would give both players more room to breathe.
Have you heard of brood lords? You just described exactly how every Protoss feels against broods. I can have a larger, stronger army, but once you get brood lords, I will simply lose every battle until I have sufficient VRs or you make a mistake.
Have you heard of infestors? It's better now, but that's how every Prototss feels about infestors, too. I can have a superior army and be ready for a deadly timing attack, but the second your first round of infestors pop, I simply must retreat because there's absolutely no way I can win; the DPS is suddenly just too high.
This is even worse than the colossus situation, because you can train as many infestors as you choose to and they'll be done in a few seconds. Colossus take a long time before they can be used (upgrade). The counter for colossus (corruptor) is also something that can be made in large quantities in a matter of seconds; and your scouting should always be good enough that you'll have a spire up before a 2-3 colossus push comes.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 20 2011 00:50 HowardRoark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:20 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. the deathball actually is completely because of the colossus. I gave the reason up above. It can be hit by everything! This means you need to have anti air with your army even if you have no air units! That fact is why the death ball exists. I guarantee if the colossus was instead a reaver, which cannot be hit by anti air, there would not be deathballs like the ones we see. This is what I meant by boring, not just a-move, but boring from a composition point of view as well. Seeing a colossus means the opponent gets vikings/corruptors, which means toss has to have stalkers to defend their colossi, which creates the death ball aspect. The fact that the colossus is so much better in terms of stats and price and build time compared to the carrier, is the reason why it overshadows it. The only thing the carrier has over the colossus is that it can't be hit by ground attacks, but the fact that every other aspect is soooo much worse than the otherwise similar colossus makes using it not very feasible. That's the problem with the design of the colossus. It was made to be a very efficient, powerful, splash damage, siege unit with great mobility. Blizzard made its weakness be that it can be hit by air. While that kind of design is definitely thinking outside the box and is very innovative, Blizzard did not think enough about the interactions with the rest of the protoss arsenal and with the other races, and the end result leaves a lot to be desired. True. The Colossus is by far the worst designed unit ever to come out from Blizzard, and I am pretty sure they will remove it from HotS. Knowing how Blizzard want Starcraft 2 to succeed as an esport (even inviting Jaedong et al to Blizzcon) it surely will be removed due to how stale it makes any PvX game spectator and esport-wise. They probably noticed this design flaw early on but it would be strange of them to remove it before HotS. I just wish they would bring in Bill Roper to head HotS, but I realize that is just wishful thinking.
No, there are deathballs other than the colossi death ball. I personally think a stalker/immortal/archon/high templar ball is even stronger than a colossi based death ball.
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On October 20 2011 01:12 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:50 HowardRoark wrote:On October 20 2011 00:20 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. the deathball actually is completely because of the colossus. I gave the reason up above. It can be hit by everything! This means you need to have anti air with your army even if you have no air units! That fact is why the death ball exists. I guarantee if the colossus was instead a reaver, which cannot be hit by anti air, there would not be deathballs like the ones we see. This is what I meant by boring, not just a-move, but boring from a composition point of view as well. Seeing a colossus means the opponent gets vikings/corruptors, which means toss has to have stalkers to defend their colossi, which creates the death ball aspect. The fact that the colossus is so much better in terms of stats and price and build time compared to the carrier, is the reason why it overshadows it. The only thing the carrier has over the colossus is that it can't be hit by ground attacks, but the fact that every other aspect is soooo much worse than the otherwise similar colossus makes using it not very feasible. That's the problem with the design of the colossus. It was made to be a very efficient, powerful, splash damage, siege unit with great mobility. Blizzard made its weakness be that it can be hit by air. While that kind of design is definitely thinking outside the box and is very innovative, Blizzard did not think enough about the interactions with the rest of the protoss arsenal and with the other races, and the end result leaves a lot to be desired. True. The Colossus is by far the worst designed unit ever to come out from Blizzard, and I am pretty sure they will remove it from HotS. Knowing how Blizzard want Starcraft 2 to succeed as an esport (even inviting Jaedong et al to Blizzcon) it surely will be removed due to how stale it makes any PvX game spectator and esport-wise. They probably noticed this design flaw early on but it would be strange of them to remove it before HotS. I just wish they would bring in Bill Roper to head HotS, but I realize that is just wishful thinking. No, there are deathballs other than the colossi death ball. I personally think a stalker/immortal/archon/high templar ball is even stronger than a colossi based death ball.
With that composition at least the protoss has to do a bit more micro and there's more opportunity for BOTH players to micro battle, dodge storms etc.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 20 2011 01:14 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 01:12 Whitewing wrote:On October 20 2011 00:50 HowardRoark wrote:On October 20 2011 00:20 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. the deathball actually is completely because of the colossus. I gave the reason up above. It can be hit by everything! This means you need to have anti air with your army even if you have no air units! That fact is why the death ball exists. I guarantee if the colossus was instead a reaver, which cannot be hit by anti air, there would not be deathballs like the ones we see. This is what I meant by boring, not just a-move, but boring from a composition point of view as well. Seeing a colossus means the opponent gets vikings/corruptors, which means toss has to have stalkers to defend their colossi, which creates the death ball aspect. The fact that the colossus is so much better in terms of stats and price and build time compared to the carrier, is the reason why it overshadows it. The only thing the carrier has over the colossus is that it can't be hit by ground attacks, but the fact that every other aspect is soooo much worse than the otherwise similar colossus makes using it not very feasible. That's the problem with the design of the colossus. It was made to be a very efficient, powerful, splash damage, siege unit with great mobility. Blizzard made its weakness be that it can be hit by air. While that kind of design is definitely thinking outside the box and is very innovative, Blizzard did not think enough about the interactions with the rest of the protoss arsenal and with the other races, and the end result leaves a lot to be desired. True. The Colossus is by far the worst designed unit ever to come out from Blizzard, and I am pretty sure they will remove it from HotS. Knowing how Blizzard want Starcraft 2 to succeed as an esport (even inviting Jaedong et al to Blizzcon) it surely will be removed due to how stale it makes any PvX game spectator and esport-wise. They probably noticed this design flaw early on but it would be strange of them to remove it before HotS. I just wish they would bring in Bill Roper to head HotS, but I realize that is just wishful thinking. No, there are deathballs other than the colossi death ball. I personally think a stalker/immortal/archon/high templar ball is even stronger than a colossi based death ball. With that composition at least the protoss has to do a bit more micro and there's more opportunity for BOTH players to micro battle, dodge storms etc.
Yeah, it is more difficult for the protoss to control, but balance needs to be discussed at the top level, and this ball is more powerful and effective than colossi based builds, and the best players can handle it. The colossus is an issue at lower levels, at least in terms of how boring it is, but I don't think it's as bad as people think.
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On October 20 2011 01:17 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 01:14 Zorkmid wrote:On October 20 2011 01:12 Whitewing wrote:On October 20 2011 00:50 HowardRoark wrote:On October 20 2011 00:20 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:
[quote]
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. the deathball actually is completely because of the colossus. I gave the reason up above. It can be hit by everything! This means you need to have anti air with your army even if you have no air units! That fact is why the death ball exists. I guarantee if the colossus was instead a reaver, which cannot be hit by anti air, there would not be deathballs like the ones we see. This is what I meant by boring, not just a-move, but boring from a composition point of view as well. Seeing a colossus means the opponent gets vikings/corruptors, which means toss has to have stalkers to defend their colossi, which creates the death ball aspect. The fact that the colossus is so much better in terms of stats and price and build time compared to the carrier, is the reason why it overshadows it. The only thing the carrier has over the colossus is that it can't be hit by ground attacks, but the fact that every other aspect is soooo much worse than the otherwise similar colossus makes using it not very feasible. That's the problem with the design of the colossus. It was made to be a very efficient, powerful, splash damage, siege unit with great mobility. Blizzard made its weakness be that it can be hit by air. While that kind of design is definitely thinking outside the box and is very innovative, Blizzard did not think enough about the interactions with the rest of the protoss arsenal and with the other races, and the end result leaves a lot to be desired. True. The Colossus is by far the worst designed unit ever to come out from Blizzard, and I am pretty sure they will remove it from HotS. Knowing how Blizzard want Starcraft 2 to succeed as an esport (even inviting Jaedong et al to Blizzcon) it surely will be removed due to how stale it makes any PvX game spectator and esport-wise. They probably noticed this design flaw early on but it would be strange of them to remove it before HotS. I just wish they would bring in Bill Roper to head HotS, but I realize that is just wishful thinking. No, there are deathballs other than the colossi death ball. I personally think a stalker/immortal/archon/high templar ball is even stronger than a colossi based death ball. With that composition at least the protoss has to do a bit more micro and there's more opportunity for BOTH players to micro battle, dodge storms etc. Yeah, it is more difficult for the protoss to control, but balance needs to be discussed at the top level, and this ball is more powerful and effective than colossi based builds, and the best players can handle it. The colossus is an issue at lower levels, at least in terms of how boring it is, but I don't think it's as bad as people think.
I agree that a stalker/immortal/archon/high templar ball is very powerful, and I like it a whole lot more than a ball that includes colossi. Specifically I like that nothing in it can be hit by air attacks. I just don't think it is smart design to have 3 of the 4 robo units be susceptible to anti air. That plus the stargate units means that about half of all toss units, and a majority of the late game ones, can be countered by anti air. I don't believe that overlap is very healthy for the game.
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On October 20 2011 01:07 Musketeer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:32 Umpteen wrote:On October 20 2011 00:09 Deckkie wrote:On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. I am pretty sure there are enough Protoss that dont like the Colossus either. And I dont think there is anybody that wants the colossus removed without a proper replacement. (I get the feeling that, that is what you think is the case) Yeah; I mean, with my proper silver-level Zerg head on I detest Colossus because there we are, head to head, gateway/immortals/stargate versus ling/roach/hydra/muta, with a roughly equal burden of micro/macromanagement/positioning on each, and then bam, bam, bam the Protoss player gets to massively inflate the head-to-head DPS of his army in (say) the time it takes to make four units out of two robotics bays, without making it any harder to control or position his forces. In a couple of minutes we go from a situation where we would trade armies to one where absolutely everything I have dies in exchange for ten zealots. It's not imbalance, because obviously there are ways and means to deal with it. It's more that the most natural-feeling progression of the matchup (namely aggression and counter-aggression while working up the tech trees) funnels into this extremely abrupt and one-sided leathering, and to avoid it Zergs have had to skirt around the margins of 'natural' play, going for one-dimensional roach all-ins, or hydra timings, or weird zergling/infestor into hive tech. If the Colossus were replaced with something that wasn't just a DPS multiplier but required careful use, something that could be soft-countered with army control and positioning rather than flatly obliging me to rewind the last four minutes and make a spire instead, the rebalancing of the races that could ensue would give both players more room to breathe. [...] I can have a superior army and be ready for a deadly timing attack, but the second your first round of infestors pop, I simply must retreat because there's absolutely no way I can win; the DPS is suddenly just too high.
If this statement is correct, then there are some major flaws in the game design. If you have zero chance of winning when infestors pop, the whole "Terrible terrible damage" and "Hard counter" nature that Bowder envisioned for Starcraft 2 has failed miserably. A player ought to be able to, with superior skill, outmicro the other player, but if this is not possible in Starcraft 2 due to game design choices built on "Hard counters" something went haywire.
You talk about Broodlords and Infestors, but are your standing that these also needs to be removed from the game because of blandness of game design, or was your post simple concerning balance? The reason why people want the Colossus gone is because it is a badly designed unit, not that they lose to it, that is simple a balance issue. But are Infestors really a game design issue? I find they are one of the few OK newly designed units in Starcraft 2.
If I were to face Flash in BW with me having a 200 psi Terran army, and Flash only a 40 psi Terran army, he would steamroll me, just because the skill differences and that it takes a lot of skill to micro. I like this because it makes pro matches interesting.
But, if I were to face the best Protoss in WoL, let us say MC(?), and I had a 200 psi P deathball, and he had a 100 psi or even a 150 psi P deathball, I would win, simply because a-moving the ball is not enough punishable, and this is the main problem with WoL game design. Even if he is 100 times better than me, it just does not matter, and the fault is for one thing Colossus.
What I hope this new unit is, is a unit that is hard to master but powerful if a skilled enough player use it, sort of like a Vulture, Lurker or Defiler.
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As a protoss player I wouldn't mind seeing Colossus removed provided of course there was some other buff (better storm? nerfed emp? other ranged AOE unit?) to balance things out. Colossus is just a dull boring unit. It wins you games but you don't feel like you've really earned it (aside from macro). A unit that powerful should be harder to use.
Same thing for Broodlords.
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I doubt you would win vs MC if the supply difference was only 50 lol, that's pretty standard in ZvP.
Edit: oh you mean PvP as well, then yeah
Forcefeild, Concussive and Fungal all should really be removed too. I'm on the fence slightly with forcefeild because it's a pretty high skill ability (still haven't seen a protoss who can forcefeild as well as MC can, those ones against STC were mind boggling) and all three races have some ways toescape it (medivacs/overlords/tunneling claws/massive units). But that and warpgate really screws up protoss Tier 1.
I dislike the Colossus too, and really wish they give us something with more potential
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On October 20 2011 01:07 Musketeer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:32 Umpteen wrote:On October 20 2011 00:09 Deckkie wrote:On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. I am pretty sure there are enough Protoss that dont like the Colossus either. And I dont think there is anybody that wants the colossus removed without a proper replacement. (I get the feeling that, that is what you think is the case) Yeah; I mean, with my proper silver-level Zerg head on I detest Colossus because there we are, head to head, gateway/immortals/stargate versus ling/roach/hydra/muta, with a roughly equal burden of micro/macromanagement/positioning on each, and then bam, bam, bam the Protoss player gets to massively inflate the head-to-head DPS of his army in (say) the time it takes to make four units out of two robotics bays, without making it any harder to control or position his forces. In a couple of minutes we go from a situation where we would trade armies to one where absolutely everything I have dies in exchange for ten zealots. It's not imbalance, because obviously there are ways and means to deal with it. It's more that the most natural-feeling progression of the matchup (namely aggression and counter-aggression while working up the tech trees) funnels into this extremely abrupt and one-sided leathering, and to avoid it Zergs have had to skirt around the margins of 'natural' play, going for one-dimensional roach all-ins, or hydra timings, or weird zergling/infestor into hive tech. If the Colossus were replaced with something that wasn't just a DPS multiplier but required careful use, something that could be soft-countered with army control and positioning rather than flatly obliging me to rewind the last four minutes and make a spire instead, the rebalancing of the races that could ensue would give both players more room to breathe. Have you heard of brood lords? You just described exactly how every Protoss feels against broods. I can have a larger, stronger army, but once you get brood lords, I will simply lose every battle until I have sufficient VRs or you make a mistake. Have you heard of infestors? It's better now, but that's how every Prototss feels about infestors, too. I can have a superior army and be ready for a deadly timing attack, but the second your first round of infestors pop, I simply must retreat because there's absolutely no way I can win; the DPS is suddenly just too high.
But that's exactly my point!
If I tech up in what you might call a standard way, (via roaches and hydra), there is a large timing window where your colossus will arrive and I won't have broodlords. I won't even have enough corruptors. But if I set aside enough resources for corruptors I'm vulnerable to a straight-up bigger gateway push. To have any kind of stability I need infestors, but now they have to be so strong that massing them gets ridiculous.
I want to emphasise: this is not a balance complaint. It's a complaint about how units that are too strong and too simple to use - units that can only be hard-countered with other units in a narrow timing window, rather than soft-countered with tactics and skill while army composition is adjusted - end up distorting and restricting the game.
EDIT: Counter-example: mutalisks vs marines, turrets and Thors.
When mutalisks come out, correctly positioned and microed marines suffice to deny harassment while turrets are constructed, at the expense of map presence. They are a tactical soft-counter to mutalisk harassment; a band-aid. They can also keep mutalisks at bay out on the map while Thors are produced, if that's how the Terran wants to protect their offensive force. That's a system working well: skill and tactics softening the impact of a unit while the counter-units are constructed.
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On October 20 2011 01:43 HowardRoark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 01:07 Musketeer wrote:On October 20 2011 00:32 Umpteen wrote:On October 20 2011 00:09 Deckkie wrote:On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:
[quote]
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. I am pretty sure there are enough Protoss that dont like the Colossus either. And I dont think there is anybody that wants the colossus removed without a proper replacement. (I get the feeling that, that is what you think is the case) Yeah; I mean, with my proper silver-level Zerg head on I detest Colossus because there we are, head to head, gateway/immortals/stargate versus ling/roach/hydra/muta, with a roughly equal burden of micro/macromanagement/positioning on each, and then bam, bam, bam the Protoss player gets to massively inflate the head-to-head DPS of his army in (say) the time it takes to make four units out of two robotics bays, without making it any harder to control or position his forces. In a couple of minutes we go from a situation where we would trade armies to one where absolutely everything I have dies in exchange for ten zealots. It's not imbalance, because obviously there are ways and means to deal with it. It's more that the most natural-feeling progression of the matchup (namely aggression and counter-aggression while working up the tech trees) funnels into this extremely abrupt and one-sided leathering, and to avoid it Zergs have had to skirt around the margins of 'natural' play, going for one-dimensional roach all-ins, or hydra timings, or weird zergling/infestor into hive tech. If the Colossus were replaced with something that wasn't just a DPS multiplier but required careful use, something that could be soft-countered with army control and positioning rather than flatly obliging me to rewind the last four minutes and make a spire instead, the rebalancing of the races that could ensue would give both players more room to breathe. [...] I can have a superior army and be ready for a deadly timing attack, but the second your first round of infestors pop, I simply must retreat because there's absolutely no way I can win; the DPS is suddenly just too high. If this statement is correct, then there are some major flaws in the game design. If you have zero chance of winning when infestors pop, the whole "Terrible terrible damage" and "Hard counter" nature that Bowder envisioned for Starcraft 2 has failed miserably. A player ought to be able to, with superior skill, outmicro the other player, but if this is not possible in Starcraft 2 due to game design choices built on "Hard counters" something went haywire.
As opposed to BW, where toss had a 0% chance to win against a maxed mech army?
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On October 20 2011 01:07 Musketeer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:32 Umpteen wrote:On October 20 2011 00:09 Deckkie wrote:On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. I am pretty sure there are enough Protoss that dont like the Colossus either. And I dont think there is anybody that wants the colossus removed without a proper replacement. (I get the feeling that, that is what you think is the case) Yeah; I mean, with my proper silver-level Zerg head on I detest Colossus because there we are, head to head, gateway/immortals/stargate versus ling/roach/hydra/muta, with a roughly equal burden of micro/macromanagement/positioning on each, and then bam, bam, bam the Protoss player gets to massively inflate the head-to-head DPS of his army in (say) the time it takes to make four units out of two robotics bays, without making it any harder to control or position his forces. In a couple of minutes we go from a situation where we would trade armies to one where absolutely everything I have dies in exchange for ten zealots. It's not imbalance, because obviously there are ways and means to deal with it. It's more that the most natural-feeling progression of the matchup (namely aggression and counter-aggression while working up the tech trees) funnels into this extremely abrupt and one-sided leathering, and to avoid it Zergs have had to skirt around the margins of 'natural' play, going for one-dimensional roach all-ins, or hydra timings, or weird zergling/infestor into hive tech. If the Colossus were replaced with something that wasn't just a DPS multiplier but required careful use, something that could be soft-countered with army control and positioning rather than flatly obliging me to rewind the last four minutes and make a spire instead, the rebalancing of the races that could ensue would give both players more room to breathe. Have you heard of brood lords? You just described exactly how every Protoss feels against broods. I can have a larger, stronger army, but once you get brood lords, I will simply lose every battle until I have sufficient VRs or you make a mistake. Have you heard of infestors? It's better now, but that's how every Prototss feels about infestors, too. I can have a superior army and be ready for a deadly timing attack, but the second your first round of infestors pop, I simply must retreat because there's absolutely no way I can win; the DPS is suddenly just too high. This is even worse than the colossus situation, because you can train as many infestors as you choose to and they'll be done in a few seconds. Colossus take a long time before they can be used (upgrade). The counter for colossus (corruptor) is also something that can be made in large quantities in a matter of seconds; and your scouting should always be good enough that you'll have a spire up before a 2-3 colossus push comes.
It took 80 pages but the thread finally turned into a balance discussion......
On that note I will put in my two cents. What this man said IS how every toss feels about hive tech and infestors. It near impossible to trade efficiently (which toss with the weakest economy of the three races combined with the most $$ units must trade armies efficiently in order to win) going against this unit mixture.
Inka and several other GM toss have said that you CAN'T beat/trade armies going head on with broodloord/infestor armies.... The closest I have seen is the Mothership+Archon "toilet" destroy broods effectively. As a toss player even I admit that is a complete gimmick. Its been 6 months since people (primarily zergs) were complaining about a 200/200 toss army being unbeatable but that is no longer the case. The "death ball" is a dead-end play style as far as I am concerned.....
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On October 18 2011 10:00 tnud wrote:
EDIT: It's very unlikely it's a new interceptor, way too detailed! Stop talking about Carriers
Lol wtf? People aren't able to speculate how they want in a speculation thread, and are not allowed to talk about Carriers? You serious?
In any event, I think it is going to be an air caster unit.
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To produce these I basically did my own photoshop level adjustments, and drew lines over wherever I could see obvious lines in the image, then I just filled it with colour and added a blured overlay of the original image, so I'm guessing it will look something like one of these.
The first one is with probe style colours, then dt style colours, then stalker style colours.
![[image loading]](http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3739/newsc2protossunit.jpg)
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Also, could it be a robo produced super AOE laucher? Rever style, with a slow fire rate. Like the sentries bigger brother that thought spells were dumb.
This is a unit I would endorse.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2011 02:48 skipgamer wrote:To produce these I basically did my own photoshop level adjustments, and drew lines over wherever I could see obvious lines in the image, then I just filled it with colour and added a blured overlay of the original image, so I'm guessing it will look something like one of these. The first one is with probe style colours, then dt style colours, then stalker style colours.
Nicely painted!
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On October 20 2011 00:51 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:40 Zorgaz wrote:On October 20 2011 00:22 SeaSwift wrote:On October 20 2011 00:19 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Perhaps it would make more sense if you looked at it from relative mobility.
Terran and Zerg both have ridiculously mobile armies and quick units in many categories, meanwhile Protoss, aside from Blink Stalkers (which has to be researched) and Colossi, the army is much less mobile than the Terran or Zerg, therefore some of the traditionally less mobile units are more mobile, at the cost of the rest of our units being less mobile in comparison to the other races. Actually, people tend to gloss over the fact that Colossi are only as fast as Hydras OFF OF CREEP (which people complain about all the time). The only reason people think they count as mobile is their cliff walking ability, which rarely actually adds to their mobility much. Admittedly, they are fast for AoE damage, but aren't in the same league as Blink Stalkers. Haha why on earth would you compare them with blink stalkers!? I'm not talking about move speed here, I'm sure Collosi and tanks have about the same. BUT, tanks need to SIEGE for their AoE damage. That limits their mobility very much. Collosi can just A-move around, AND they can walk cliffs. It's just so ridiculous i still don't get why it was added in the game. tanks can't be hit by vikings >.> they are different units. [
Amazed that you still don't see my point T_T. I'm just saying that the Collosi is the first ''Siege unit'' in ''Starcraft'' that is mobile, and it just doesn't fit. (Walking cliffs is just mobility and while it may be a cool thing it doesn't fit to a siege unit). Never said i wanted it to be a Siege Tank
Sry for double post T_T
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On October 20 2011 00:14 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. No it's because the Collosi has a flawed design since it is intended as the Protoss ''siege'' unit. Check this out. In BW Siege Tank - Strong but immobile, needs to siege for AoE attack. Lurker - Strong but immobile, needs to burrow to attack. Reaver - Sick AOE but really slow, needs to build scarabs and ''aim'' with it's missle attacks. In SC2 Siege Tank - same as in BW. Broodlord - Strong but immobile, ''summons broodlings''. Collosi - Mobile and can walk cliffs. Do you see how flawed this is?!
I agree 100%. If there was no collosus, it would be much easier to balance. Because of collosus, vikings are super strong. Same with corrupters. Also, because protoss can go collousus much easier than carriers, a transition into carriers doesn't make much sense since they are both hard countered by vikings. I hope this new unit replaces the collosus.
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On October 20 2011 01:43 HowardRoark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 01:07 Musketeer wrote:On October 20 2011 00:32 Umpteen wrote:On October 20 2011 00:09 Deckkie wrote:On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:
[quote]
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. I am pretty sure there are enough Protoss that dont like the Colossus either. And I dont think there is anybody that wants the colossus removed without a proper replacement. (I get the feeling that, that is what you think is the case) Yeah; I mean, with my proper silver-level Zerg head on I detest Colossus because there we are, head to head, gateway/immortals/stargate versus ling/roach/hydra/muta, with a roughly equal burden of micro/macromanagement/positioning on each, and then bam, bam, bam the Protoss player gets to massively inflate the head-to-head DPS of his army in (say) the time it takes to make four units out of two robotics bays, without making it any harder to control or position his forces. In a couple of minutes we go from a situation where we would trade armies to one where absolutely everything I have dies in exchange for ten zealots. It's not imbalance, because obviously there are ways and means to deal with it. It's more that the most natural-feeling progression of the matchup (namely aggression and counter-aggression while working up the tech trees) funnels into this extremely abrupt and one-sided leathering, and to avoid it Zergs have had to skirt around the margins of 'natural' play, going for one-dimensional roach all-ins, or hydra timings, or weird zergling/infestor into hive tech. If the Colossus were replaced with something that wasn't just a DPS multiplier but required careful use, something that could be soft-countered with army control and positioning rather than flatly obliging me to rewind the last four minutes and make a spire instead, the rebalancing of the races that could ensue would give both players more room to breathe. [...] I can have a superior army and be ready for a deadly timing attack, but the second your first round of infestors pop, I simply must retreat because there's absolutely no way I can win; the DPS is suddenly just too high. If this statement is correct, then there are some major flaws in the game design. If you have zero chance of winning when infestors pop, the whole "Terrible terrible damage" and "Hard counter" nature that Bowder envisioned for Starcraft 2 has failed miserably. A player ought to be able to, with superior skill, outmicro the other player, but if this is not possible in Starcraft 2 due to game design choices built on "Hard counters" something went haywire. You talk about Broodlords and Infestors, but are your standing that these also needs to be removed from the game because of blandness of game design, or was your post simple concerning balance? The reason why people want the Colossus gone is because it is a badly designed unit, not that they lose to it, that is simple a balance issue. But are Infestors really a game design issue? I find they are one of the few OK newly designed units in Starcraft 2.
What I meant is that I would be unable to win that particular battle. It would be perfectly possible to continue to play out the game and develop an army that would indeed be able to win. My point is that there's a timing window with infestors that renders a Protoss attack useless. I don't think that's a bad thing or in any way a problem with balance or a problem with design. It's just an aspect of how the game works, and colossus work in the similar way.
I did not ever suggest that there was any problem with game design or that any unit ought to be removed or changed. Nor was my post concerning balance. I don't understand why you're suggesting that.
On October 20 2011 01:52 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 01:07 Musketeer wrote:On October 20 2011 00:32 Umpteen wrote:On October 20 2011 00:09 Deckkie wrote:On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:
[quote]
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. I am pretty sure there are enough Protoss that dont like the Colossus either. And I dont think there is anybody that wants the colossus removed without a proper replacement. (I get the feeling that, that is what you think is the case) Yeah; I mean, with my proper silver-level Zerg head on I detest Colossus because there we are, head to head, gateway/immortals/stargate versus ling/roach/hydra/muta, with a roughly equal burden of micro/macromanagement/positioning on each, and then bam, bam, bam the Protoss player gets to massively inflate the head-to-head DPS of his army in (say) the time it takes to make four units out of two robotics bays, without making it any harder to control or position his forces. In a couple of minutes we go from a situation where we would trade armies to one where absolutely everything I have dies in exchange for ten zealots. It's not imbalance, because obviously there are ways and means to deal with it. It's more that the most natural-feeling progression of the matchup (namely aggression and counter-aggression while working up the tech trees) funnels into this extremely abrupt and one-sided leathering, and to avoid it Zergs have had to skirt around the margins of 'natural' play, going for one-dimensional roach all-ins, or hydra timings, or weird zergling/infestor into hive tech. If the Colossus were replaced with something that wasn't just a DPS multiplier but required careful use, something that could be soft-countered with army control and positioning rather than flatly obliging me to rewind the last four minutes and make a spire instead, the rebalancing of the races that could ensue would give both players more room to breathe. Have you heard of brood lords? You just described exactly how every Protoss feels against broods. I can have a larger, stronger army, but once you get brood lords, I will simply lose every battle until I have sufficient VRs or you make a mistake. Have you heard of infestors? It's better now, but that's how every Prototss feels about infestors, too. I can have a superior army and be ready for a deadly timing attack, but the second your first round of infestors pop, I simply must retreat because there's absolutely no way I can win; the DPS is suddenly just too high. But that's exactly my point! If I tech up in what you might call a standard way, (via roaches and hydra), there is a large timing window where your colossus will arrive and I won't have broodlords. I won't even have enough corruptors. But if I set aside enough resources for corruptors I'm vulnerable to a straight-up bigger gateway push. To have any kind of stability I need infestors, but now they have to be so strong that massing them gets ridiculous. I want to emphasise: this is not a balance complaint. It's a complaint about how units that are too strong and too simple to use - units that can only be hard-countered with other units in a narrow timing window, rather than soft-countered with tactics and skill while army composition is adjusted - end up distorting and restricting the game.
Unfortunately, infestors come out before colossus.
If I tech up in what you might call a standard way, (via a gateway army off of a FFE), there is a large timing window where your infestors will arrive and I won't have colossus. I won't even have enough templar. But if I set aside enough resources for colossus or templar, I'm vulnerable to a straight-up roach/hydra push. To have any kind of stability I need colossus before I can push against infestors.
It's the exact same thing. After the colossus-corruptor balance has been achieved in midgame (IE both players are on even ground), the same thing happens with broodlords and void rays. Brood lords must, then, be a unit that is too strong and simple to use, as they can only be hard countered with other units in a narrow timing window, rather than soft-countered with tactics and skill while army composition is adjusted. With Zerg, however, the timing window is so ridiculously small. A Protoss player has to sit around for a long time to get sufficient colossus, and they're extremely vulnerable during this time. With Brood lords and corruptors, as soon as you decide to build them, they're out within seconds.
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On October 20 2011 03:10 Zorgaz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 20 2011 02:48 skipgamer wrote:To produce these I basically did my own photoshop level adjustments, and drew lines over wherever I could see obvious lines in the image, then I just filled it with colour and added a blured overlay of the original image, so I'm guessing it will look something like one of these. The first one is with probe style colours, then dt style colours, then stalker style colours. Nicely painted!
Yeah, very cool, nice job  That first one is almost exactly what I imagine its actually going to look like.
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