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On October 20 2011 00:09 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. Nah; I've heard at least as many Protoss complain about them as T or Z, simply because they're so good that the rest of the race has had to be balanced around 'what can a Protoss army do with 4-5 colossi in it?', which means a Protoss army without 4-5 colossi in it is distinctly sub-par.
It's more about the warp gate than it is the colossus. Because toss's easily massable units(gateway units) need to be weak to compensate for the warp gate mechanic, the sentry needs to exist and the colossus needs to be so good at what it does.
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On October 20 2011 00:14 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. No it's because the Collosi has a flawed design since it is intended as the Protoss ''siege'' unit. Check this out. In BW Siege Tank - Strong but immobile, needs to siege for AoE attack. Lurker - Strong but immobile, needs to burrow to attack. Reaver - Sick AOE but really slow, needs to build scarabs and ''aim'' with it's missle attacks. In SC2 Siege Tank - same as in BW. Broodlord - strong and immobile. Collosi - Mobile and can walk cliffs. Do you see how flawed this is?!
Perhaps it would make more sense if you looked at it from relative mobility.
Terran and Zerg both have ridiculously mobile armies and quick units in many categories, meanwhile Protoss, aside from Blink Stalkers (which has to be researched) and Colossi, the army is much less mobile than the Terran or Zerg, therefore some of the traditionally less mobile units are more mobile, at the cost of the rest of our units being less mobile in comparison to the other races.
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On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling.
Hell no. I've discussed it with a few of my friends that play toss, and we all wish browder hadnt brought this pile of shit over from cnc. There'd obviously need to be some other form of splash/aoe damage, but fuck collosus man
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On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault.
the deathball actually is completely because of the colossus. I gave the reason up above. It can be hit by everything! This means you need to have anti air with your army even if you have no air units! That fact is why the death ball exists. I guarantee if the colossus was instead a reaver, which cannot be hit by anti air, there would not be deathballs like the ones we see.
This is what I meant by boring, not just a-move, but boring from a composition point of view as well. Seeing a colossus means the opponent gets vikings/corruptors, which means toss has to have stalkers to defend their colossi, which creates the death ball aspect.
The fact that the colossus is so much better in terms of stats and price and build time compared to the carrier, is the reason why it overshadows it. The only thing the carrier has over the colossus is that it can't be hit by ground attacks, but the fact that every other aspect is soooo much worse than the otherwise similar colossus makes using it not very feasible.
That's the problem with the design of the colossus. It was made to be a very efficient, powerful, splash damage, siege unit with great mobility. Blizzard made its weakness be that it can be hit by air. While that kind of design is definitely thinking outside the box and is very innovative, Blizzard did not think enough about the interactions with the rest of the protoss arsenal and with the other races, and the end result leaves a lot to be desired.
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On October 20 2011 00:19 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Perhaps it would make more sense if you looked at it from relative mobility.
Terran and Zerg both have ridiculously mobile armies and quick units in many categories, meanwhile Protoss, aside from Blink Stalkers (which has to be researched) and Colossi, the army is much less mobile than the Terran or Zerg, therefore some of the traditionally less mobile units are more mobile, at the cost of the rest of our units being less mobile in comparison to the other races.
Actually, people tend to gloss over the fact that Colossi are only as fast as Hydras OFF OF CREEP (which people complain about all the time). The only reason people think they count as mobile is their cliff walking ability, which rarely actually adds to their mobility much. Admittedly, they are fast for AoE damage, but aren't in the same league as Blink Stalkers.
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I think it's a anti ground stargate unit that fires splash damage. That way protoss could to stargate tech and not being outplayed by hydras/marines.
Would really like to see that type of unit introduced ^^That way protoss could mix their strategy a bit more.
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On October 20 2011 00:19 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:14 Zorgaz wrote:On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. No it's because the Collosi has a flawed design since it is intended as the Protoss ''siege'' unit. Check this out. In BW Siege Tank - Strong but immobile, needs to siege for AoE attack. Lurker - Strong but immobile, needs to burrow to attack. Reaver - Sick AOE but really slow, needs to build scarabs and ''aim'' with it's missle attacks. In SC2 Siege Tank - same as in BW. Broodlord - strong and immobile. Collosi - Mobile and can walk cliffs. Do you see how flawed this is?! Perhaps it would make more sense if you looked at it from relative mobility. Terran and Zerg both have ridiculously mobile armies and quick units in many categories, meanwhile Protoss, aside from Blink Stalkers (which has to be researched) and Colossi, the army is much less mobile than the Terran or Zerg, therefore some of the traditionally less mobile units are more mobile, at the cost of the rest of our units being less mobile in comparison to the other races.
This basically. I find it so interesting that hydras are so god awfully slow and unusable at 2.25 movement speed when that is the same base speed for almost all basic protoss ground units t.t (zealots, imortals, sentry, colosus)
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On October 20 2011 00:26 iLike413 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:19 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 20 2011 00:14 Zorgaz wrote:On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. No it's because the Collosi has a flawed design since it is intended as the Protoss ''siege'' unit. Check this out. In BW Siege Tank - Strong but immobile, needs to siege for AoE attack. Lurker - Strong but immobile, needs to burrow to attack. Reaver - Sick AOE but really slow, needs to build scarabs and ''aim'' with it's missle attacks. In SC2 Siege Tank - same as in BW. Broodlord - strong and immobile. Collosi - Mobile and can walk cliffs. Do you see how flawed this is?! Perhaps it would make more sense if you looked at it from relative mobility. Terran and Zerg both have ridiculously mobile armies and quick units in many categories, meanwhile Protoss, aside from Blink Stalkers (which has to be researched) and Colossi, the army is much less mobile than the Terran or Zerg, therefore some of the traditionally less mobile units are more mobile, at the cost of the rest of our units being less mobile in comparison to the other races. This basically. I find it so interesting that hydras are so god awfully slow and unusable at 2.25 movement speed when that is the same base speed for almost all basic protoss ground units t.t (zealots, imortals, sentry, colosus)
tis an excellent point
they are just spoiled because all their other units are so frickin fast
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On October 20 2011 00:09 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. I am pretty sure there are enough Protoss that dont like the Colossus either. And I dont think there is anybody that wants the colossus removed without a proper replacement. (I get the feeling that, that is what you think is the case)
Yeah; I mean, with my proper silver-level Zerg head on I detest Colossus because there we are, head to head, gateway/immortals/stargate versus ling/roach/hydra/muta, with a roughly equal burden of micro/macromanagement/positioning on each, and then bam, bam, bam the Protoss player gets to massively inflate the head-to-head DPS of his army in (say) the time it takes to make four units out of two robotics bays, without making it any harder to control or position his forces. In a couple of minutes we go from a situation where we would trade armies to one where absolutely everything I have dies in exchange for ten zealots.
It's not imbalance, because obviously there are ways and means to deal with it. It's more that the most natural-feeling progression of the matchup (namely aggression and counter-aggression while working up the tech trees) funnels into this extremely abrupt and one-sided leathering, and to avoid it Zergs have had to skirt around the margins of 'natural' play, going for one-dimensional roach all-ins, or hydra timings, or weird zergling/infestor into hive tech.
If the Colossus were replaced with something that wasn't just a DPS multiplier but required careful use, something that could be soft-countered with army control and positioning rather than flatly obliging me to rewind the last four minutes and make a spire instead, the rebalancing of the races that could ensue would give both players more room to breathe.
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On October 20 2011 00:19 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:14 Zorgaz wrote:On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. No it's because the Collosi has a flawed design since it is intended as the Protoss ''siege'' unit. Check this out. In BW Siege Tank - Strong but immobile, needs to siege for AoE attack. Lurker - Strong but immobile, needs to burrow to attack. Reaver - Sick AOE but really slow, needs to build scarabs and ''aim'' with it's missle attacks. In SC2 Siege Tank - same as in BW. Broodlord - strong and immobile. Collosi - Mobile and can walk cliffs. Do you see how flawed this is?! Perhaps it would make more sense if you looked at it from relative mobility. Terran and Zerg both have ridiculously mobile armies and quick units in many categories, meanwhile Protoss, aside from Blink Stalkers (which has to be researched) and Colossi, the army is much less mobile than the Terran or Zerg, therefore some of the traditionally less mobile units are more mobile, at the cost of the rest of our units being less mobile in comparison to the other races.
You got to be kidding me. Ridiculously mobile compared to toss ? More like ridiculous bias...
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New protoss air unit that furfills the lack of harrasment choices early game for the race. Kind of clear...
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On October 20 2011 00:33 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:19 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 20 2011 00:14 Zorgaz wrote:On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. No it's because the Collosi has a flawed design since it is intended as the Protoss ''siege'' unit. Check this out. In BW Siege Tank - Strong but immobile, needs to siege for AoE attack. Lurker - Strong but immobile, needs to burrow to attack. Reaver - Sick AOE but really slow, needs to build scarabs and ''aim'' with it's missle attacks. In SC2 Siege Tank - same as in BW. Broodlord - strong and immobile. Collosi - Mobile and can walk cliffs. Do you see how flawed this is?! Perhaps it would make more sense if you looked at it from relative mobility. Terran and Zerg both have ridiculously mobile armies and quick units in many categories, meanwhile Protoss, aside from Blink Stalkers (which has to be researched) and Colossi, the army is much less mobile than the Terran or Zerg, therefore some of the traditionally less mobile units are more mobile, at the cost of the rest of our units being less mobile in comparison to the other races. You got to be kidding me. Ridiculously mobile compared to toss ? More like ridiculous bias...
Oh yeah, MMM force is immobile as fuck. Fucking medivacs slowing down that already snail-like infantry!
Dont fucking talk about bias when you're bathing in it
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On October 20 2011 00:22 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:19 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Perhaps it would make more sense if you looked at it from relative mobility.
Terran and Zerg both have ridiculously mobile armies and quick units in many categories, meanwhile Protoss, aside from Blink Stalkers (which has to be researched) and Colossi, the army is much less mobile than the Terran or Zerg, therefore some of the traditionally less mobile units are more mobile, at the cost of the rest of our units being less mobile in comparison to the other races. Actually, people tend to gloss over the fact that Colossi are only as fast as Hydras OFF OF CREEP (which people complain about all the time). The only reason people think they count as mobile is their cliff walking ability, which rarely actually adds to their mobility much. Admittedly, they are fast for AoE damage, but aren't in the same league as Blink Stalkers.
Haha why on earth would you compare them with blink stalkers!?
I'm not talking about move speed here, I'm sure Collosi and tanks have about the same.
BUT, tanks need to SIEGE for their AoE damage. That limits their mobility very much.
Collosi can just A-move around, AND they can walk cliffs. It's just so ridiculous i still don't get why it was added in the game.
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On October 20 2011 00:16 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:09 Umpteen wrote:On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. Nah; I've heard at least as many Protoss complain about them as T or Z, simply because they're so good that the rest of the race has had to be balanced around 'what can a Protoss army do with 4-5 colossi in it?', which means a Protoss army without 4-5 colossi in it is distinctly sub-par. It's more about the warp gate than it is the colossus. Because toss's easily massable units(gateway units) need to be weak to compensate for the warp gate mechanic, the sentry needs to exist and the colossus needs to be so good at what it does.
That too  Warpgate is such a massive facepalm of an idea as far as I'm concerned. "I know: let's make every map 32x32 in PvP, and 32x32 for the Protoss only in all the other matchups."
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On October 20 2011 00:33 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:19 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 20 2011 00:14 Zorgaz wrote:On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. No it's because the Collosi has a flawed design since it is intended as the Protoss ''siege'' unit. Check this out. In BW Siege Tank - Strong but immobile, needs to siege for AoE attack. Lurker - Strong but immobile, needs to burrow to attack. Reaver - Sick AOE but really slow, needs to build scarabs and ''aim'' with it's missle attacks. In SC2 Siege Tank - same as in BW. Broodlord - strong and immobile. Collosi - Mobile and can walk cliffs. Do you see how flawed this is?! Perhaps it would make more sense if you looked at it from relative mobility. Terran and Zerg both have ridiculously mobile armies and quick units in many categories, meanwhile Protoss, aside from Blink Stalkers (which has to be researched) and Colossi, the army is much less mobile than the Terran or Zerg, therefore some of the traditionally less mobile units are more mobile, at the cost of the rest of our units being less mobile in comparison to the other races. You got to be kidding me. Ridiculously mobile compared to toss ? More like ridiculous bias...
MMM and most of zerg units aside from hydras, queens and brood lords are quicker then anything protoss has, save for blinkstalkers and phoenix. It isn't that weird of a thought.
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I like how protoss players and non-protoss players all come together and hate on the colossus, it's a beautiful thing. Let's just hope blizzard actually does something about it. I'm hoping this unit is a replacement for the mothership though, since it doesn't look like it would be a siege unit like the colossus is.
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On October 20 2011 00:20 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. the deathball actually is completely because of the colossus. I gave the reason up above. It can be hit by everything! This means you need to have anti air with your army even if you have no air units! That fact is why the death ball exists. I guarantee if the colossus was instead a reaver, which cannot be hit by anti air, there would not be deathballs like the ones we see. This is what I meant by boring, not just a-move, but boring from a composition point of view as well. Seeing a colossus means the opponent gets vikings/corruptors, which means toss has to have stalkers to defend their colossi, which creates the death ball aspect. The fact that the colossus is so much better in terms of stats and price and build time compared to the carrier, is the reason why it overshadows it. The only thing the carrier has over the colossus is that it can't be hit by ground attacks, but the fact that every other aspect is soooo much worse than the otherwise similar colossus makes using it not very feasible. That's the problem with the design of the colossus. It was made to be a very efficient, powerful, splash damage, siege unit with great mobility. Blizzard made its weakness be that it can be hit by air. While that kind of design is definitely thinking outside the box and is very innovative, Blizzard did not think enough about the interactions with the rest of the protoss arsenal and with the other races, and the end result leaves a lot to be desired.
True. The Colossus is by far the worst designed unit ever to come out from Blizzard, and I am pretty sure they will remove it from HotS. Knowing how Blizzard want Starcraft 2 to succeed as an esport (even inviting Jaedong et al to Blizzcon) it surely will be removed due to how stale it makes any PvX game spectator and esport-wise.
They probably noticed this design flaw early on but it would be strange of them to remove it before HotS. I just wish they would bring in Bill Roper to head HotS, but I realize that is just wishful thinking.
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On October 20 2011 00:40 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:22 SeaSwift wrote:On October 20 2011 00:19 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Perhaps it would make more sense if you looked at it from relative mobility.
Terran and Zerg both have ridiculously mobile armies and quick units in many categories, meanwhile Protoss, aside from Blink Stalkers (which has to be researched) and Colossi, the army is much less mobile than the Terran or Zerg, therefore some of the traditionally less mobile units are more mobile, at the cost of the rest of our units being less mobile in comparison to the other races. Actually, people tend to gloss over the fact that Colossi are only as fast as Hydras OFF OF CREEP (which people complain about all the time). The only reason people think they count as mobile is their cliff walking ability, which rarely actually adds to their mobility much. Admittedly, they are fast for AoE damage, but aren't in the same league as Blink Stalkers. Haha why on earth would you compare them with blink stalkers!? I'm not talking about move speed here, I'm sure Collosi and tanks have about the same. BUT, tanks need to SIEGE for their AoE damage. That limits their mobility very much. Collosi can just A-move around, AND they can walk cliffs. It's just so ridiculous i still don't get why it was added in the game.
tanks can't be hit by vikings >.>
they are different units.
On October 20 2011 00:20 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. the deathball actually is completely because of the colossus. I gave the reason up above. It can be hit by everything! This means you need to have anti air with your army even if you have no air units! That fact is why the death ball exists. I guarantee if the colossus was instead a reaver, which cannot be hit by anti air, there would not be deathballs like the ones we see.This is what I meant by boring, not just a-move, but boring from a composition point of view as well. Seeing a colossus means the opponent gets vikings/corruptors, which means toss has to have stalkers to defend their colossi, which creates the death ball aspect. The fact that the colossus is so much better in terms of stats and price and build time compared to the carrier, is the reason why it overshadows it. The only thing the carrier has over the colossus is that it can't be hit by ground attacks, but the fact that every other aspect is soooo much worse than the otherwise similar colossus makes using it not very feasible. That's the problem with the design of the colossus. It was made to be a very efficient, powerful, splash damage, siege unit with great mobility. Blizzard made its weakness be that it can be hit by air. While that kind of design is definitely thinking outside the box and is very innovative, Blizzard did not think enough about the interactions with the rest of the protoss arsenal and with the other races, and the end result leaves a lot to be desired.
no, even when there is no colossus on the mix, protoss still avoid spreading his unit.
it is not good to spread units as protoss. It is not the colossus fault.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 20 2011 00:16 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:09 Umpteen wrote:On October 20 2011 00:04 Daralii wrote:On October 19 2011 23:51 rpgalon wrote:On October 19 2011 22:30 Fig wrote:On October 19 2011 22:21 Fragile51 wrote:On October 19 2011 22:18 BeeNu wrote:On October 19 2011 22:08 tnud wrote:On October 19 2011 21:50 Alejandro wrote:
Why is everyone talking about removing a unit from the game?
Did anyone from Blizzard hinted that some units might be gone for the new ones to appear? Or is it just guessing?
Not trying to troll, it´s a serious question.
They have said they will remove/replace some units. They have also said they "don't like" some units, like the corruptor. I also think the Colossus is pretty high up on the "do not like" list. It's a complete mismatch of a unit for Starcraft. Every other ranged aoe unit in the all of SC history has been difficult to use and control with a decent amount of risk/reward attached to it or it was a melee unit. Think of the Lurker, Siege Tank, Reaver, all of these required good placement and micro and positioning and forethought into actually using, the Colossus is just A-Move unit with very minimal micro, it's kinda stupid. Yeah agreed. An added problem is that the Collosus gets countered by the exact same unit Carriers are weak against (Vikings and Corruptors). I really hope that the robo end unit gets replaced by something cooler. Yep the colossus is a boring unit that promotes boring gameplay. Blizzard made it an easy unit to use, with a very low skill ceiling so pros can't show their stuff, and gave it very obvious and easy counters (vikings, corruptors). It's a unit that dumbs down the game. The fact that it's design also causes it to overlap with all protoss air units is just horrible. Think about this. Out of the Robo facility, 3 of the 4 units available can be hit by anti air. Then you have all 3 of the Stargate units (plus the mothership) that can be hit by anti air. This is TERRIBLE DESIGN! I don't know how Blizzard let it end up like this, but something needs to change, and it starts with the colossus. the colossus is as boring as ultralisk/broodlords/carriers/thors/battlecruiser all A move, if you want to remove colossus, you should remove the whole T3 units too. people think protoss goes deathball because of colossus, but it is because the units protoss have needs to stick together and are so slow that after moving out, they can't retreat, so it is like an all in everytime you move out with your army. it is not the colossus fault. At this point, I'm pretty sure most people calling for the removal of colossi are T/Z players that go pure marine or hydra/ling. Nah; I've heard at least as many Protoss complain about them as T or Z, simply because they're so good that the rest of the race has had to be balanced around 'what can a Protoss army do with 4-5 colossi in it?', which means a Protoss army without 4-5 colossi in it is distinctly sub-par. It's more about the warp gate than it is the colossus. Because toss's easily massable units(gateway units) need to be weak to compensate for the warp gate mechanic, the sentry needs to exist and the colossus needs to be so good at what it does.
Finally someone else that gets it. The reason colossi are so good at amoving and settings things on fire is because of warpagates and sentries. As long as those two exist, the colossus isn't going anywhere.
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Back in the Brood War, dark archons mind controlled some ultralisks. This unit is clearly an ultralisk that is geneticly engineer for larger tusks and with some protoss armor cover.
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EPT
