[September] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 17

On October 12 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:


in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, yes.
how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used...

On October 12 2011 07:07 -_- wrote:



Warpgate cooldown?

On October 12 2011 07:10 doko100 wrote:


You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss.

the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that.

You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in.



actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on.

On October 12 2011 07:15 Trusty wrote:


2-base 2-ghost timing is far from all-in, it was very common 2~ months ago on KR server.

On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:



But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds.

Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units.

On October 12 2011 07:17 doko100 wrote:


I don't know the exact build order, but I'm pretty sure it auto-loses to collossus doesn't it?

On October 12 2011 07:22 Trusty wrote:


It hits before HT's with storm, or 2x Collosus (from 2 base). It will lose to 1/2gate Robo -> Nexus -> Collosus rush, but you can usually kill 1gate Robo FE with 2rax opening (which is a good opening for 2-ghost timing).

It's similar to 2x medivac poke/drop, scan before you engage, if he's sentry heavy you can probably just win the game.

I think it went out of favour, since it's as easy to retreat if he's gone quick charge, or you get flanked (stim yourself to death).

Also the lack of 8:00 medivacs means he doesnt need to keep some stalkers @ main to protect from drop when you move out with 2-ghost.

Edit: I'm obviously a P player, and I don't know the exact BO, just that it can hit between 8:30 to 9:30 ish. Haven't seen it in a while on KR server myself.

On October 12 2011 07:25 doko100 wrote:


Well I personally still think it's all in, because if the protoss defends the push and gets 4-5 collossus out there is absolutely nothing you can do. no medivacs, no vikings. I find it really hard to not call it an all-in when you are essentially dead if it fails. Know what I mean?

On October 12 2011 07:25 doko100 wrote:


Well I personally still think it's all in, because if the protoss defends the push and gets 4-5 collossus out there is absolutely nothing you can do. no medivacs, no vikings. I find it really hard to not call it an all-in when you are essentially dead if it fails. Know what I mean?

On October 12 2011 07:34 Trusty wrote:


How are you dead if it fails? It's exactly the same as a medivac-poke. Your Starport is completed by the time you hit the P's base. You're in a position to build reactor'd vikings.

When you poke at 9:00~ with 2 medivacs, you'll kill him if he rushed collosus, and if he's not, you can THEN start making vikings..... you won't have any vikings right then.

Totally the same as arriving @ 9:30 with 2 medivacs, finding out he's rushing storm (kill him), or he's not rushing it, go home, get ghosts.....

The only difference is you can't drop-harass as you to your first push.

On October 12 2011 07:42 doko100 wrote:


I want to see a build order for that please. I just think it's nonsensical to get ghosts instead of medivacs, unless he has mass sentry of course, but that's a different story. I wouldn't actually want to use this build as a standard tvp build, it seems really bad against quick collossus and you can easily die to overstimming, like you said. And I'm sure it's very easy to scout the build and if the toss sees you are going ghosts and not medivac he can just use his entire army to defend the push since he doesn't have to fear any drops at all.

So yeah I can kind of understand why koreans are not using the build anymore. I didn't actually know that you get a starport behind that aswell, but it seems really counter intuitive, this build is clearly designed to deal damage, but the fact that you build a starport behind it indicates that you are setting up for a longer game, in that case however it would make more sense to go for medivac first because you can drop and harrass, whereas this seems more like a "i hope i can do some damage" attack.

On October 12 2011 00:06 SeaSwift wrote:


Fixed that for you.

I highly doubt they were UNPLAYABLE, just not as fun I suspect. But yes, sometimes Blizzard does have to think about casual players, but if they want it to become a really successful E-sport, they're going to have to make some sacrifices when it comes to casuals.

On October 12 2011 07:10 doko100 wrote:


You can't get ghosts earlier than High templars usually, it's usually the protoss who goes high templar or collossus and the terran then responds with either vikings or ghosts. it's not vikings and ghosts, it's vikings or ghosts. You can't build the ghost academy earlier either because you really need starport tech for medivacs, you can't play bio without medivacs, so if the protoss goes for high templars, he has the advantage that you need to spend alot of ressources in stargate tech, you have to... you cant just go bio+ghost with no medivacs mid-lategame vs. protoss.

the only strategy where T can get a ghost faster than a P can get a high templar is a ghost rush, but that is all-in and the terran has no medivacs when he does that.

You as a protoss player should really know that,this is pretty much how every TvP plays out, Terran scouts robo or templar archives, then goes vikings or ghosts. no way you can get ghosts before the protoss can get high templars, unless you play without medivacs, and the only build that let's you do that is a ghost rush and that is an all in.



actually makes the difference even larger. if we are talking about one production cycle the overall difference is 50 seconds. if we are talking about 2 production cycles the difference is 65 seconds. 3 production cycles its 80 seconds... and so on.

On October 12 2011 07:57 -_- wrote:


Here's how I see it. I don't exactly understand what you're saying, so please correct me.

First, let me give you some times from liquipedia.

Marine: 25 build time.
Marauder: 30 build time.
Ghost: 40 build time.

Zealot: 38 cooldown.
Stalker: 42 cooldown.
Sentry: 37 cooldown.
HT: 55 cooldown.

To make my example simple, lets say you and me are playing a bronze league PvT, where I have warp gate, and you have one barracks. I plan on going stalker high templar, you plan on going marauder ghost.

Your ghost building isn't done, so you start a marauder. My templar archives isn't done, so I start a stalker. Interestingly, after 5 seconds, I have a stalker and you have nothing. However, after 30 seconds, you have a marauder and I still only have the stalker.

I still have 12 seconds left on cooldown, and you start another maruader. Now, at 42 seconds since you started your first marauder, my cooldown is done, and at 47 seconds I have 2 stalkers and you have one marauder. Then, at 1 minute you have 2 marauders and I have 2 stalker. What's more, I have to wait until 1 minute 24 until I can start warping in stalker number 3, and until 1 minute 29 until I get it.

Let's do one more. Since I started warping in my stalker at 1 minute 24, I have to wait until 2 minutes 6 seconds to start warping in stalker 4, and finally I get the stalker at 2 minutes 11 seconds. Let's use numbers to make this clear.

At 0:00 P: warpgate T: Barracks
At 0:05 P: stalker T: Nothing
At 0:30 P: stalker T: marauder (25 second difference).
At 0:47 P: 2 stalker T: marauder
At 1:00 P: 2 stalker T: 2 marauder (13 second difference)
At 1:29 P: 3 stalker T: 2 marauder
At 1:30 P: 3 stalker T: 3 marauder (1 second difference)
At 2:00 P 3 stalker T FOUR MARAUDERS
At 2:11 P 4 stalkers T: 4 marauders (-11 seconds).

Now lets talker about templar and ghost. Ghosts build in 40 seconds. Templars build in 55. That's a difference of 15 seconds. The difference between Stalker and Marauder was only 12. So, what you'll see with templar ghost production will mirror the analysis done above, except Ghosts will "catch up" to the templar production even faster because of the greater time differential between Ghosts and Templar.

Thus, the difference doesn't get bigger between cycles, it gets smaller.

Now, what does this mean for a real game? After all, T will have more than 1 barracks with a tech lab, and P will have more than one gate. Well, the limiting factor for P warping in templars is gas. So what you should really compare is barracks with tech labs for T and gateways which Toss has enough to build HT from.

Basically, if T has more tech lab barracks than P has gas supported gateways then over time ghost production will get pretty far ahead of templar production... eh. Not too much you can get from that.

Also, obviously I can chrono boost and you get to mule, which complicates things further.




Anyways, you said the difference got bigger, I think it gets smaller. But I ain't great with math. Care to explain?

On October 12 2011 08:06 Trealador wrote:


Sweet it works for 1 gate vs 1 raxx. Please enlighten me when its 8 gate vs 3-4 raxx. Does it still add up? 16 vs at best 8 sounds fair. Because when you get the units doesn't matter, it's the fact that we can make more quicker down the line. Since when do Terran have same production as protoss? That's good.

On October 12 2011 08:06 Trealador wrote:


Sweet it works for 1 gate vs 1 raxx. Please enlighten me when its 8 gate vs 3-4 raxx. Does it still add up? 16 vs at best 8 sounds fair. Because when you get the units doesn't matter, it's the fact that we can make more quicker down the line. Since when do Terran have same production as protoss? That's good.