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Hey guys, im high master protoss on NA server. Ive been having tons of trouble with the 2ghost push, just plain out dying to it so many times over the last couple weeks. Was hoping for a solution after watching MLG, but every PvT i saw where the terran actually did this push either killed the toss or made him very far behind in eco.
So im just curious, what do you guys do to combat it?
I usually 1gate FE or 2gate expand, and terrans usually 1rax expo and follow up with this push. I try to get 35-40 probes before i start cranking out units out of 5-6 gates about the 8 min mark just to prepare for the push.
Ive tried for lots of zealots with fast charge, didnt work too well (EMP literally halves the hp of all your zealots...lol)
Tried for fast archons and split the 2 i had, but stim, emp and focus fire ate them pretty bad. Guess it might work on maps like shakuras but iono.
Tried holding it with well placed force fields, but seriously it doesnt work too well...
Ive been trying to avoid going collosus this early, and instead holding it with templar route. I dont like going to straight blind collosus either, but maybe thats the easy solution? i saw socke vs someone and he would get a collo at exact time the push came, which allowed him to hold it. It still left him behind though, because it was easy to stim -> FF the collosus. Its just a push thats so hard to scout unless you go robo, but if u react by the time your observer gets there its too late tbh.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-224700.jpg)
In the replay, i made a few key mistakes. I think i coulda got 1 or 2 more sentries, i was 5 energy short of guardian shield, and i got supply blocked a couple times. But i think i would still be quite dead in spite of these mistakes. I think i got too much tech at once (DTs and HTs). Not really sure though!
Will try to upload more replays ASAP
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edit: will watch
edit2: You had 1 sentry at the engagement, 1 of your first archons was sent in and got attacked by all of his units at once. You needed to send your archons after the zealots. No Guardian shield on your zealots vs. marine heavy composition, and furthermore the zealots streamed in a line. You were way behind on economy even though he 1based for roughly 10 minutes, and you did a 20nexus.
Also, spread your sentries vs. EMP. 2 ghosts <<< sentries that arent stacked in a ball
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1st I think work on your macro. 2nd if you play vs this on small map lets say you do your stalker poke and you see like 1rax expand 1base colosuss is insta win. If you do your normal 2gate nexus and then more gates and a robo when your obs gets to his base and you see no tech to vikings well this means your colo is unstoppable get 1 colo as fast as possible and crank the other chrono on gates and warp zealots they are your best unit keep your colo in the back and you will clean it ez. The 2 base ghost push is designed for the Korean metagame with many gates and upgrades because korean T do more drops and with colossus you don't have a way to move out or stop those drops and thats why they don't do it so this means if you try to go the path of the koreans you will have hard time stoping it. Even if you do 6gate stuff with upgrades if the terran is doing 2base allin with alot of barracks marines+few rauders and emp will rip your gateway army part just like PuMa does in his TvP games with alot of rines. Going Archons in TvP i don't think is good because you need your opponent to make a mistake and don't hit his emps so in my opinion Archons in TvP are still just to do something with your HT's that don't have energy.
EDIT:Oh and one more thing if you do some kind of Alicia 3gate pressure or Naniwa's 2gate pressure you can just FF your opponent in his base and he has no chance of doing anything like ground push to you when he has no way of going out of his base.
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I don't use your style very often at all but it seemed like you lost because of an unrefined build order. By the time the push hit, you invested in twilight council and charge, forge and +1, a dark shrine, 3 more gates than you need to hold that push, and a templar archives. Out of those, the templar archives was the only one that paid for itself. Maybe the dark shrine too. You should streamline your build by cutting out the templar archives so that you have enough gas to finish charge by 10:00, at which point both of the major timing pushes (2 ghosts, or 2 medivacs) hit. I really don't think you need archons or until Terran gets closer to 150 supply.
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Okay from watching the replay here are my notes:
-You scout a 1 rax expand with no gas before 3 minutes, and do not try scouting again before expanding.... you also don't make the initial stalker zealot and are saving chrono for no reason. This mean you have a HIGHLY unsafe 1 gate expo, for all you know he could be 5 raxing and slamming you into the ground with 4 bazillion marines and ALL of his scv's in 30 seconds....
-You have all 4 gas by 8 minutes, while having seriously subpar saturation, what're you trying to do with all that gas? DT push? Blink archon push? You know you're at a decent econ edge, why push your luck by teching and expanding at the same time. Since you never really scouted his gas timing/you never really push up his ramp and check his bunker units for all you know they're a SLIGHTLY delayed banshee or even a funny 2 rax conc push to clear out your stalkers or push them back.
-Okay, all of your mistakes culminate in your demise. You go, in my opinion, at least 3 tech paths while expanding against a 1 base Terran with double mules. I make the same mistake often, you over estimate your 1.5 base play over his 1.2 base play. If you had simply had more gateways with faster Twilight upgrades you would have steam rolled him. If you went for storm quick you would have steam rolled him with decent micro. If you went for gateways and fast +1/+2 armor you would have torn him to shreds. If you had went serious DT delay, you could have held him off for even longer, gotten more probes, and smashed him down with a gateway army.... hell, you could have had out 2 colossi and a decent gateway army if you wanted to.
In the end, don't 1 forge/dt/ht/chrono probes all at the same time off of 1.5 bases.... it will not and should not work against ANY competent push by the terran... the emp's were just icing.
EDIT: On a lighter note, you almost could've won with a few money storms, seeing as your opponent had NO idea what he was doing and you were barely economically behind AFTER losing you natural. Spread your gateway army and, imo, you should have 2 obs per base. Observers are the Protoss Map hack 
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I'm at work and can't watch the replay right now, but I'll just comment on this.
On August 04 2011 18:15 HinagikUx wrote:
Ive tried for lots of zealots with fast charge, didnt work too well (EMP literally halves the hp of all your zealots...lol)
I agree that EMP is frustrating to deal with as protoss, but it's important to understand that EMP actually does not "literally half" the HP of your zealots, and it's hard to believe a high masters player would think this.
Zealots lose their 50 shields and keep their 100 HP which has 1 base armor. The 50 shields would take 9 marine shots or 5 marauder shots to deplete. The remaining 100 HP with 1 base armor would take 20 marine shots or 12 marauder shots to deplete. It's for this very reason - their high HP to shields ratio - that zealots do better than your average protoss unit against EMP; it effectively reduces their life by less than 1/3.
If you get charge, fast armor upgrades and spread your sentries enough that at least one avoids the EMPs and you can throw up a guardian shield, they become monsters. Zealots with +1 armor and guardian shield take 50(!) un-upgraded marine shots or 17 un-upgraded marauder shots to kill even after losing all their shields to EMP. Also remember not to just 1A, spam G and watch, micro your sentries forward to make sure the zealots are covered by the guardian shield; leaving your zealots outside it will lose you battles/games.
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I seriously dont think this needs any specific counters, just make enough sentries and units. I hold this always quite easily just splitting my 5-6 sentries and making lots of zealots and forcefielding+guardianshielding
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After reading all your comments, i think I'd need to fucuz on army positioning more mostly. ive been under-utilizing sentries alot in favor or more tech/upgrades, but I guess thats the wrong direction to go (only had 1 sentry in the engagement). Will try it out, and repost afte results:p thanks!
On August 05 2011 00:52 sleep wrote:I'm at work and can't watch the replay right now, but I'll just comment on this. Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 18:15 HinagikUx wrote:
Ive tried for lots of zealots with fast charge, didnt work too well (EMP literally halves the hp of all your zealots...lol) I agree that EMP is frustrating to deal with as protoss, but it's important to understand that EMP actually does not "literally half" the HP of your zealots, and it's hard to believe a high masters player would think this. Zealots lose their 50 shields and keep their 100 HP which has 1 base armor. The 50 shields would take 9 marine shots or 5 marauder shots to deplete. The remaining 100 HP with 1 base armor would take 20 marine shots or 12 marauder shots to deplete. It's for this very reason - their high HP to shields ratio - that zealots do better than your average protoss unit against EMP; it effectively reduces their life by less than 1/3. If you get charge, fast armor upgrades and spread your sentries enough that at least one avoids the EMPs and you can throw up a guardian shield, they become monsters. Zealots with +1 armor and guardian shield take 50(!) un-upgraded marine shots or 17 un-upgraded marauder shots to kill even after losing all their shields to EMP. Also remember not to just 1A, spam G and watch, micro your sentries forward to make sure the zealots are covered by the guardian shield; leaving your zealots outside it will lose you battles/games.
Yea, thats true. I was just a bit flustered when i wrote this, because i was so frustrated with dealing with emp. thanks for the advice though!
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On August 05 2011 05:18 HinagikUx wrote:After reading all your comments, i think I'd need to fucuz on army positioning more mostly. ive been under-utilizing sentries alot in favor or more tech/upgrades, but I guess thats the wrong direction to go (only had 1 sentry in the engagement). Will try it out, and repost afte results:p thanks! Show nested quote +On August 05 2011 00:52 sleep wrote:I'm at work and can't watch the replay right now, but I'll just comment on this. On August 04 2011 18:15 HinagikUx wrote:
Ive tried for lots of zealots with fast charge, didnt work too well (EMP literally halves the hp of all your zealots...lol) I agree that EMP is frustrating to deal with as protoss, but it's important to understand that EMP actually does not "literally half" the HP of your zealots, and it's hard to believe a high masters player would think this. Zealots lose their 50 shields and keep their 100 HP which has 1 base armor. The 50 shields would take 9 marine shots or 5 marauder shots to deplete. The remaining 100 HP with 1 base armor would take 20 marine shots or 12 marauder shots to deplete. It's for this very reason - their high HP to shields ratio - that zealots do better than your average protoss unit against EMP; it effectively reduces their life by less than 1/3. If you get charge, fast armor upgrades and spread your sentries enough that at least one avoids the EMPs and you can throw up a guardian shield, they become monsters. Zealots with +1 armor and guardian shield take 50(!) un-upgraded marine shots or 17 un-upgraded marauder shots to kill even after losing all their shields to EMP. Also remember not to just 1A, spam G and watch, micro your sentries forward to make sure the zealots are covered by the guardian shield; leaving your zealots outside it will lose you battles/games. Yea, thats true. I was just a bit flustered when i wrote this, because i was so frustrated with dealing with emp. thanks for the advice though!
I second that +1 armor, having an upgrade advantage makes your zealots beastly, with or without charge. It's also why I like going double forge then colossus, tyler style.
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I have also faced something similar as well while doing a double forge tyler style build and not sure how to hold this off. I often get caught off guard and they EMP my sentries and therefore I have no GS, then i get steamrolled afterwards.
Is this a case of just scouting the Terran and if I know they are going ghost, to quickly build up Colossus??
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From my humble high diamond experience, going a gateway heavy twighlight upgrade focused build keeps you safe from this and any non-starport terran openings. Chargelots with preemptive Guardian Shield will crap all over it. Keeping your zealot and sentry line spread out is vital, and try contest the xelnaga towers with stalkers so you know its coming.
This build is indeed very tough to hold off if you have invested in a standard colossus timing, and any early colossus builds lose to a lot of other things, so I would advise gateway focused builds in response to rax-based aggression in the current PvT metagame.
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EPT
