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On October 12 2011 06:25 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. Are you playing in like diamond level? who the hell is going to stock 750 gas? Please exaggerate more.
Really? Stop rushing every game and play maxed vs. maxed army and maybe you'll find out.
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On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed.
how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then?
Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs!
This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc.
Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers.
And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then.
Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.!
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Doko, you have to remember that because of how terran works you have to rally units. So either A) you just had units finish and they are all in your base/ heading towards where the battle just was and can be moved back or B) They are close to completing. Protoss on the other hand has a very high chance of warping in units very close into the battle using a pylon. If protoss does lose that battle then their warp in was nullified and there is no way they could get two warp ins before an attack. And Dfgj makes a good point in that protoss gateway units tend to be much less cost effective then terran units in small battles.
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On October 12 2011 06:29 kingjames01 wrote:
Come on guys, respond to arguments by attacking premises and revealing fallacies.
Stop attacking each other; it's frustrating to read and it's only going to aggravate you guys to the point where you'll face punishment.
It seems to me that most people need help developing their argumentative skills. Lack of clarity also seems to cause some problems.
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On October 12 2011 06:30 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:25 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. Are you playing in like diamond level? who the hell is going to stock 750 gas? Please exaggerate more. Really? Stop rushing every game and play maxed vs. maxed army and maybe you'll find out.
Terrans have had it hardest since beta, we get it.
Arguing with hypotheticals with people you don't know almost always gets ugly.
We should just let the results speak for themselves: based on these statistics, T > P and T > Z.
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On October 12 2011 06:27 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:24 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:18 Drowsy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:11 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:08 sjschmidt93 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:04 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 05:59 Drowsy wrote:
Marines are too strong. Nerfing their damage output (in the form of attack speed) would solve pvt and zvt. I don't understand why marines would be a problem in PvT, I also think that they might be slightly too strong in TvZ (at pro level that is, below grandmaster nobody has good enough micro to make marines look imbalanced). I never felt like Marines were a good unit in PvT anyway, Marauders yes, but Marines in PvT? Storms and Collossus completely destroy marines. Also if you decrease the rate of fire what's terran bio gonna do against chargelots? Just auto-lose? Have you seen Puma play TvP (no not his 1-1-1s) That isn't evidence for imbalance though.Marines are easily countered by HTs and collossi in big numbers and stalkers in small numbers. Marines definitely aren't imbalanced in PvT and "puma's pvt" definitely doesn't count as evidence either. Easily countered by Hts and colossus lol. If toss makes it to the point where 6+ colossi with stalker support and a decent economy, he can usually win. Marines make it pretty damn difficult to reach this point because they are insanely cost efficient tier 1 units. And besides, we KNOW marines are imbalanced in zvt. It's kind of ridiculously obvious and has pretty much been that way since release. PVT is obviously terran favored, if they just nerfed marines to fix tvz it would be worth it and it would very likely alleviate pvt imbalance in the same blow. Well I heard forcefields are good and stalkers fare quite well against marines in small numbers aswell. Don't really see what your point is. Midgame you get collossi, early game you have forcefields and stalkers to counter big marine numbers. Or let me guess, we are assuming that the terran has dropped your mineral line with marines and killed all your probes so you are massively behind right now... or no he sniped the robo and you can't build collossi... are there any other worst case scenarios you can come up with so that marines can actually be overpowered in PvT? Just wondering, I can.... I could also come up with scenarios where zerglings might seem overpowered or sentries....."I have no ghosts - i have no burrow...imba imba". Completely pointless. You still haven't addressed zvt. Marines are clearly a problem there, and given the fact that terran is way ahead in pvt, marines being nerfed to fix only ZvT probably still wouldn't break pvt.
Like I said, Marines might be imba in high level TvZ. I won't say they definitely are, because I'm not a fan of imba-whining, I think most people use statistics like the ones in this thread to justify their losses rather than look at their own gameplay and improve it. "Oh I play race x and he plays race y and race y has won GSL so therefore race y is imba and there is no way I can win"... seriously none of us play at the same level as top players do and in lower leagues terran (especially masters- platinum) terran is having a very hard time. I personally play in low-mid master league, so I don't know about you guys but pro-balance doesn't affect me at all and I'm sure it doesn't affect any of you guys either. Stop blaming imbalance for losses or switch races, simple.
On October 12 2011 06:36 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:30 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:25 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. Are you playing in like diamond level? who the hell is going to stock 750 gas? Please exaggerate more. Really? Stop rushing every game and play maxed vs. maxed army and maybe you'll find out. Terrans have had it hardest since beta, we get it. Arguing with hypotheticals with people you don't know almost always gets ugly. We should just let the results speak for themselves: based on these statistics, T > P and T > Z.
At pro level yes, casual level (everything below grandmaster) no. especially in masters-platinum terran is having the hardest time of all 3 races and I'm sure you are no pro, so does pro balance really affect you? give me an honest answer.
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Who the hell cares about KA? PVT late game isn't that bad, it's just early mid game terran dominates so hard. KA wouldn't really help there anyway.
And PVT isn't as bad as zvt anyway, I'm surprised so much discussion is centered around protoss given how un-fun tvz is becoming to watch/play. I'll say it again: the core tvz unit, the marine, is just too strong and cost effective.
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On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.!
QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously.
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On October 07 2011 22:52 RealQ wrote:Thats alot of sad zealots as usual 
Yeah.
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On October 12 2011 06:37 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:27 Drowsy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:24 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:18 Drowsy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:11 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:08 sjschmidt93 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:04 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 05:59 Drowsy wrote:
Marines are too strong. Nerfing their damage output (in the form of attack speed) would solve pvt and zvt. I don't understand why marines would be a problem in PvT, I also think that they might be slightly too strong in TvZ (at pro level that is, below grandmaster nobody has good enough micro to make marines look imbalanced). I never felt like Marines were a good unit in PvT anyway, Marauders yes, but Marines in PvT? Storms and Collossus completely destroy marines. Also if you decrease the rate of fire what's terran bio gonna do against chargelots? Just auto-lose? Have you seen Puma play TvP (no not his 1-1-1s) That isn't evidence for imbalance though.Marines are easily countered by HTs and collossi in big numbers and stalkers in small numbers. Marines definitely aren't imbalanced in PvT and "puma's pvt" definitely doesn't count as evidence either. Easily countered by Hts and colossus lol. If toss makes it to the point where 6+ colossi with stalker support and a decent economy, he can usually win. Marines make it pretty damn difficult to reach this point because they are insanely cost efficient tier 1 units. And besides, we KNOW marines are imbalanced in zvt. It's kind of ridiculously obvious and has pretty much been that way since release. PVT is obviously terran favored, if they just nerfed marines to fix tvz it would be worth it and it would very likely alleviate pvt imbalance in the same blow. Well I heard forcefields are good and stalkers fare quite well against marines in small numbers aswell. Don't really see what your point is. Midgame you get collossi, early game you have forcefields and stalkers to counter big marine numbers. Or let me guess, we are assuming that the terran has dropped your mineral line with marines and killed all your probes so you are massively behind right now... or no he sniped the robo and you can't build collossi... are there any other worst case scenarios you can come up with so that marines can actually be overpowered in PvT? Just wondering, I can.... I could also come up with scenarios where zerglings might seem overpowered or sentries....."I have no ghosts - i have no burrow...imba imba". Completely pointless. You still haven't addressed zvt. Marines are clearly a problem there, and given the fact that terran is way ahead in pvt, marines being nerfed to fix only ZvT probably still wouldn't break pvt. Like I said, Marines might be imba in high level TvZ. I won't say they definitely are, because I'm not a fan of imba-whining, I think most people use statistics like the ones in this thread to justify their losses rather than look at their own gameplay and improve it. "Oh I play race x and he plays race y and race y has won GSL so therefore race y is imba and there is no way I can win"... seriously none of us play at the same level as top players do and in lower leagues terran (especially masters- platinum) terran is having a very hard time. I personally play in low-mid master league, so I don't know about you guys but pro-balance doesn't affect me at all and I'm sure it doesn't affect any of you guys either. Stop blaming imbalance for losses or switch races, simple. Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:36 Condor Hero wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:25 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. Are you playing in like diamond level? who the hell is going to stock 750 gas? Please exaggerate more. Really? Stop rushing every game and play maxed vs. maxed army and maybe you'll find out. Terrans have had it hardest since beta, we get it. Arguing with hypotheticals with people you don't know almost always gets ugly. We should just let the results speak for themselves: based on these statistics, T > P and T > Z. At pro level yes, casual level (everything below grandmaster) no. especially in masters-platinum terran is having the hardest time of all 3 races and I'm sure you are no pro, so does pro balance really affect you? give me an honest answer.
Pro balance affects every single game of Starcraft that you play.
Just at low levels you cannot cite it as a reason for losing since no one plays near optimal level.
I care very little about balance in the games I play but I do get pissed at seeing every single Protoss getting smashed left and right in GSL.
I care about it as a spectator so don't tell me this shit doesn't affect me.
Got a question for you:
You happy with the state of balance in SC2 right now?
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On October 12 2011 06:26 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:25 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. Are you playing in like diamond level? who the hell is going to stock 750 gas? Please exaggerate more. Never seen a late game I take it?
Defining late game as 3 bases I take it?
Discussing scenarios involving poor macro, breeds poor strategy.
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On October 12 2011 06:46 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:26 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:25 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. Are you playing in like diamond level? who the hell is going to stock 750 gas? Please exaggerate more. Never seen a late game I take it? Defining late game as 3 bases I take it? Discussing scenarios involving poor macro, breeds poor strategy.
banking ressources once you are maxed has nothing to do with poor macro.... you know... it just happens.
On October 12 2011 06:46 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:37 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:27 Drowsy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:24 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:18 Drowsy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:11 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:08 sjschmidt93 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:04 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 05:59 Drowsy wrote:
Marines are too strong. Nerfing their damage output (in the form of attack speed) would solve pvt and zvt. I don't understand why marines would be a problem in PvT, I also think that they might be slightly too strong in TvZ (at pro level that is, below grandmaster nobody has good enough micro to make marines look imbalanced). I never felt like Marines were a good unit in PvT anyway, Marauders yes, but Marines in PvT? Storms and Collossus completely destroy marines. Also if you decrease the rate of fire what's terran bio gonna do against chargelots? Just auto-lose? Have you seen Puma play TvP (no not his 1-1-1s) That isn't evidence for imbalance though.Marines are easily countered by HTs and collossi in big numbers and stalkers in small numbers. Marines definitely aren't imbalanced in PvT and "puma's pvt" definitely doesn't count as evidence either. Easily countered by Hts and colossus lol. If toss makes it to the point where 6+ colossi with stalker support and a decent economy, he can usually win. Marines make it pretty damn difficult to reach this point because they are insanely cost efficient tier 1 units. And besides, we KNOW marines are imbalanced in zvt. It's kind of ridiculously obvious and has pretty much been that way since release. PVT is obviously terran favored, if they just nerfed marines to fix tvz it would be worth it and it would very likely alleviate pvt imbalance in the same blow. Well I heard forcefields are good and stalkers fare quite well against marines in small numbers aswell. Don't really see what your point is. Midgame you get collossi, early game you have forcefields and stalkers to counter big marine numbers. Or let me guess, we are assuming that the terran has dropped your mineral line with marines and killed all your probes so you are massively behind right now... or no he sniped the robo and you can't build collossi... are there any other worst case scenarios you can come up with so that marines can actually be overpowered in PvT? Just wondering, I can.... I could also come up with scenarios where zerglings might seem overpowered or sentries....."I have no ghosts - i have no burrow...imba imba". Completely pointless. You still haven't addressed zvt. Marines are clearly a problem there, and given the fact that terran is way ahead in pvt, marines being nerfed to fix only ZvT probably still wouldn't break pvt. Like I said, Marines might be imba in high level TvZ. I won't say they definitely are, because I'm not a fan of imba-whining, I think most people use statistics like the ones in this thread to justify their losses rather than look at their own gameplay and improve it. "Oh I play race x and he plays race y and race y has won GSL so therefore race y is imba and there is no way I can win"... seriously none of us play at the same level as top players do and in lower leagues terran (especially masters- platinum) terran is having a very hard time. I personally play in low-mid master league, so I don't know about you guys but pro-balance doesn't affect me at all and I'm sure it doesn't affect any of you guys either. Stop blaming imbalance for losses or switch races, simple. On October 12 2011 06:36 Condor Hero wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:25 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. Are you playing in like diamond level? who the hell is going to stock 750 gas? Please exaggerate more. Really? Stop rushing every game and play maxed vs. maxed army and maybe you'll find out. Terrans have had it hardest since beta, we get it. Arguing with hypotheticals with people you don't know almost always gets ugly. We should just let the results speak for themselves: based on these statistics, T > P and T > Z. At pro level yes, casual level (everything below grandmaster) no. especially in masters-platinum terran is having the hardest time of all 3 races and I'm sure you are no pro, so does pro balance really affect you? give me an honest answer. Pro balance affects every single game of Starcraft that you play. Just at low levels you cannot cite it as a reason for losing since no one plays near optimal level. I care very little about balance in the games I play but I do get pissed at seeing every single Protoss getting smashed left and right in GSL. I care about it as a spectator so don't tell me this shit doesn't affect me. Got a question for you: You happy with the state of balance in SC2 right now?
We just recently had a new patch that buffed protoss and nerfed terran. Give it time.
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edit: sry for double post. mod pls delete
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On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously.
then you should reread, balance threads from back then.
It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know)
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On October 12 2011 06:48 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:46 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 06:26 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:25 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. Are you playing in like diamond level? who the hell is going to stock 750 gas? Please exaggerate more. Never seen a late game I take it? Defining late game as 3 bases I take it? Discussing scenarios involving poor macro, breeds poor strategy. banking ressources once you are maxed has nothing to do with poor macro.... you know... it just happens. Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:46 Condor Hero wrote:On October 12 2011 06:37 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:27 Drowsy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:24 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:18 Drowsy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:11 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:08 sjschmidt93 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:04 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 05:59 Drowsy wrote:
Marines are too strong. Nerfing their damage output (in the form of attack speed) would solve pvt and zvt. I don't understand why marines would be a problem in PvT, I also think that they might be slightly too strong in TvZ (at pro level that is, below grandmaster nobody has good enough micro to make marines look imbalanced). I never felt like Marines were a good unit in PvT anyway, Marauders yes, but Marines in PvT? Storms and Collossus completely destroy marines. Also if you decrease the rate of fire what's terran bio gonna do against chargelots? Just auto-lose? Have you seen Puma play TvP (no not his 1-1-1s) That isn't evidence for imbalance though.Marines are easily countered by HTs and collossi in big numbers and stalkers in small numbers. Marines definitely aren't imbalanced in PvT and "puma's pvt" definitely doesn't count as evidence either. Easily countered by Hts and colossus lol. If toss makes it to the point where 6+ colossi with stalker support and a decent economy, he can usually win. Marines make it pretty damn difficult to reach this point because they are insanely cost efficient tier 1 units. And besides, we KNOW marines are imbalanced in zvt. It's kind of ridiculously obvious and has pretty much been that way since release. PVT is obviously terran favored, if they just nerfed marines to fix tvz it would be worth it and it would very likely alleviate pvt imbalance in the same blow. Well I heard forcefields are good and stalkers fare quite well against marines in small numbers aswell. Don't really see what your point is. Midgame you get collossi, early game you have forcefields and stalkers to counter big marine numbers. Or let me guess, we are assuming that the terran has dropped your mineral line with marines and killed all your probes so you are massively behind right now... or no he sniped the robo and you can't build collossi... are there any other worst case scenarios you can come up with so that marines can actually be overpowered in PvT? Just wondering, I can.... I could also come up with scenarios where zerglings might seem overpowered or sentries....."I have no ghosts - i have no burrow...imba imba". Completely pointless. You still haven't addressed zvt. Marines are clearly a problem there, and given the fact that terran is way ahead in pvt, marines being nerfed to fix only ZvT probably still wouldn't break pvt. Like I said, Marines might be imba in high level TvZ. I won't say they definitely are, because I'm not a fan of imba-whining, I think most people use statistics like the ones in this thread to justify their losses rather than look at their own gameplay and improve it. "Oh I play race x and he plays race y and race y has won GSL so therefore race y is imba and there is no way I can win"... seriously none of us play at the same level as top players do and in lower leagues terran (especially masters- platinum) terran is having a very hard time. I personally play in low-mid master league, so I don't know about you guys but pro-balance doesn't affect me at all and I'm sure it doesn't affect any of you guys either. Stop blaming imbalance for losses or switch races, simple. On October 12 2011 06:36 Condor Hero wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:25 Trusty wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. Are you playing in like diamond level? who the hell is going to stock 750 gas? Please exaggerate more. Really? Stop rushing every game and play maxed vs. maxed army and maybe you'll find out. Terrans have had it hardest since beta, we get it. Arguing with hypotheticals with people you don't know almost always gets ugly. We should just let the results speak for themselves: based on these statistics, T > P and T > Z. At pro level yes, casual level (everything below grandmaster) no. especially in masters-platinum terran is having the hardest time of all 3 races and I'm sure you are no pro, so does pro balance really affect you? give me an honest answer. Pro balance affects every single game of Starcraft that you play. Just at low levels you cannot cite it as a reason for losing since no one plays near optimal level. I care very little about balance in the games I play but I do get pissed at seeing every single Protoss getting smashed left and right in GSL. I care about it as a spectator so don't tell me this shit doesn't affect me. Got a question for you: You happy with the state of balance in SC2 right now? We just recently had a new patch that buffed protoss and nerfed terran. Give it time.
Okay, when there are 30 Terrans, 1 Protoss, and Nestea in GSL we have your permission to speak up?
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Reading this thread makes my brain bleed...
Before you have an argument about a scenario, at least define clearly and make sure the other person understands which scenario you are talking about.
One person is defining "lategame" as 3bases, one is defining "lategame" as maxed with surplus resources in the bank. That combined with the excessive hyperbole (sure, it might be fine IRL in a conversation, but tone doesn't carry on the Internet and people don't know whether you mean it or not) and random ad hominem attacks ruin the thread, which tbh wasn't fantastic from page 1. Stop fucking about and throwing insults at each other and start a proper discussion.
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On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know)
But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds.
Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units.
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On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units.
in a world were Ghosts and HT are build at the same time, have all spells already researched and enough energy, too.
how is that a fair comparison, when Ghosts Academy can be build after a Rax/techlab = the first building a terran usually builds, while Storm is the highest techtree that needs additional research of the spell to be even able to be used + the energy upgrade which are both quite expensive spells that take quite a while to research.
The reason that fast ghosts is a viable opening, while fast ht is a death sentence against a good terran player should tell you that such comparison never made sense but was used as QQ as you do right now.
and yet i don't see terran or zerg players asking for the removal of the storm research or the buffing of hightemplar movement speed.
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On October 12 2011 06:59 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:53 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously. then you should reread, balance threads from back then. It funny how not even once KA was discussed before regarding balance, but the moment it appeared in the balance changes, every terran jumped on the qq-train. (despite not using ghosts properly as we today know) But it's still a massive difference. ghosts have to be produced in barracks for 50 seconds and then they have to physically run/walk to the rest of the army. Which can depending on the map and army positioning take up to 30 seconds aswell. But I'll be nice and go with 10 seconds. So that's 1 minute until a ghost is ready for battle and can actually emp the high templar. Now compare this with the high templar. pylon in the middle of the map behind the army - 5 second warp in - 3 seconds to get close enough to cast the storm. 8-10 seconds until it can actually cast it's spell. Chances are that the terran is eventually going to run out of emps/ghost energy when you can constantly reinforce with new templars every few seconds. Seriously how should a terran ever break a protoss again when he can just warp in emergency high templars with "full" energy? Just compare the production time of the two units.
Warpgate cooldown?
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On October 12 2011 06:43 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:30 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:19 Trealador wrote:On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever. Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed. Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you. You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed. how was KA imbalanced, when HT vs. Ghost is heavily Ghost favored these days even if they drain only 100 energy today compared to back then? Terrans these days easily back 1-2k gas mid to late game, which show cases that Ghosts were affordable back then. Ghosts did drain all energy of a unit back then ffs! This just show cases how bad people played back then, not using different units etc. Even back then, Protoss was almost every techtree exect carriers. And game was considered Protoss favored, but the reason is it was only favored by P because Terran didn't use fucking ghosts, and don't tell me the change of ressources from 150/150 to 200/100 changed the usability. Infestor Timing pushes, all were possible back then, Roach Ling all-ins possible back then. Instead we have got an unbelievable QQ fest from Terran and Zerg unisono, and still the winrates of Terran never dropped below 50% despite all the supposed imbalances.! QQ fest from terran? dude terrans are the only players who really never actually complain about the other races, it used to be zergs who always complained about imbalance and now it's protoss. at no point did terran qq about anything, seriously.
It's funny when people start talking about what "Terran" did or didn't do, as if "Terran" is some famous guy with a well-known history. "Terran? Nah, he never qq'd about anything. Just look it up on his wikipedia page. Seriously dude, me and Terran are like this -- I would know if he'd qq'd about something." lol.
What are you trying to say? That no terran anywhere has ever engaged in balance whining? If you need proof I can dig up the KA nerf thread. Plenty of terran crying in there.
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EPT
