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On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off.
That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers.
Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time.
If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on.
it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so.
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Marines are too strong. Nerfing their damage output (in the form of attack speed) would solve pvt and zvt.
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On October 12 2011 05:59 Drowsy wrote:
Marines are too strong. Nerfing their damage output (in the form of attack speed) would solve pvt and zvt.
I don't understand why marines would be a problem in PvT, I also think that they might be slightly too strong in TvZ (at pro level that is, below grandmaster nobody has good enough micro to make marines look imbalanced). I never felt like Marines were a good unit in PvT anyway, Marauders yes, but Marines in PvT? Storms and Collossus completely destroy marines. Also if you decrease the rate of fire what's terran bio gonna do against chargelots? Just auto-lose?
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On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers.
The implication of this is that Terran just starts building units when the battle is engaged in, or a round of units finished to join the battle as it began. The fair comparison is that Protoss just warped in a wave of units before the battle, and thus has to wait for cooldown rather than getting things instantly.
You're also not taking into account things like how effective units are in varying group size.
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On October 12 2011 06:05 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. The implication of this is that Terran just starts building units when the battle is engaged in, or a round of units finished to join the battle as it began. The fair comparison is that Protoss just warped in a wave of units before the battle, and thus has to wait for cooldown rather than getting things instantly. You're also not taking into account things like how effective units are in varying group size.
Why would that be the case? In what scenario do both players attack when they hit exactly 200 supply, that is so unrealistic, if you want to theorycraft at least don't come up with the 1 scenario out of 100 millions where protoss doesn't have an advantage.
If the protoss really maxes out and then attacks before his gates are off cooldown he's absolutely retarded because he basically nullifies his own advantage of getting to produce units faster than his opponent after the fight is over.
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On October 12 2011 06:04 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 05:59 Drowsy wrote:
Marines are too strong. Nerfing their damage output (in the form of attack speed) would solve pvt and zvt. I don't understand why marines would be a problem in PvT, I also think that they might be slightly too strong in TvZ (at pro level that is, below grandmaster nobody has good enough micro to make marines look imbalanced). I never felt like Marines were a good unit in PvT anyway, Marauders yes, but Marines in PvT? Storms and Collossus completely destroy marines. Also if you decrease the rate of fire what's terran bio gonna do against chargelots? Just auto-lose?
Have you seen Puma play TvP (no not his 1-1-1s)
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Italy12247 Posts
On October 12 2011 06:04 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 05:59 Drowsy wrote:
Marines are too strong. Nerfing their damage output (in the form of attack speed) would solve pvt and zvt. I don't understand why marines would be a problem in PvT, I also think that they might be slightly too strong in TvZ (at pro level that is, below grandmaster nobody has good enough micro to make marines look imbalanced). I never felt like Marines were a good unit in PvT anyway, Marauders yes, but Marines in PvT? Storms and Collossus completely destroy marines. Also if you decrease the rate of fire what's terran bio gonna do against chargelots? Just auto-lose?
The combination of marine-heavy 2rax openings (gotta play safe!) and 1base allins (gotta open greedy!) that focus around marines make early game pvt a clusterfuck in a lot of situations.
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On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so.
How can you even say such a thing?
First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph?
Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever.
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On October 12 2011 06:08 sjschmidt93 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:04 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 05:59 Drowsy wrote:
Marines are too strong. Nerfing their damage output (in the form of attack speed) would solve pvt and zvt. I don't understand why marines would be a problem in PvT, I also think that they might be slightly too strong in TvZ (at pro level that is, below grandmaster nobody has good enough micro to make marines look imbalanced). I never felt like Marines were a good unit in PvT anyway, Marauders yes, but Marines in PvT? Storms and Collossus completely destroy marines. Also if you decrease the rate of fire what's terran bio gonna do against chargelots? Just auto-lose? Have you seen Puma play TvP (no not his 1-1-1s)
That isn't evidence for imbalance though.Marines are easily countered by HTs and collossi in big numbers and stalkers in small numbers. Marines definitely aren't imbalanced in PvT and "puma's pvt" definitely doesn't count as evidence either.
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zvt is the worst.. nice..
fuck terran.
zerg doing alright, toss is a sad panda.
Maybe I should be happy I rethought my race change to protoss from Z.
;p
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Switzerland2892 Posts
That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers.
This would only be true if the terransloses everything in the engagement and the protoss keeps the majority of his army.
But terran units with help of stim are faster than protoss units, so you always have the capacity to run away of a bad engagement or with some surivors (if the protoss forcefields your army, then you should have ghosts or sniped the sentries in the battle) and retreat to bunkers and pf, which give you the time to rebuild your army.
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On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever.
Honest question. Are you stupid?
As I explained, back then the metagame was based on early rushes and short games, lategame only affected a small portion of all games. Now the game has evolved and more and more games get into lategame. 52% blabla.... look at the actual gameplay... being able to convert ressources into instant damage is ridiculously overpowered... you aren't actually paying for an ht, you are paying for 80dmg when warping in a high templar.
If you your only argument is "you are wrong because I say so and you make no sense derp" then I feel bad for you, because you are wasting my time.
And there is no reason to cuss at people because they disagree with you, grow up.
On October 12 2011 06:15 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. This would only be true if the terransloses everything in the engagement and the protoss keeps the majority of his army. But terran units with help of stim are faster than protoss units, so you always have the capacity to run away of a bad engagement or with some surivors (if the protoss forcefields your army, then you should have ghosts or sniped the sentries in the battle) and retreat to bunkers and pf, which give you the time to rebuild your army.
That again is assuming that the terran wins the engagement and hits every emp perfectly.But we are discussing the situation AFTER a battle, it doesn't matter how the army died, the point is that if the army is dead, terran has the hardest time to reinforce their army quickly enough. what happened before that is irrelevant, because it doesn't change this aspect of the game.
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On October 12 2011 06:11 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:08 sjschmidt93 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:04 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 05:59 Drowsy wrote:
Marines are too strong. Nerfing their damage output (in the form of attack speed) would solve pvt and zvt. I don't understand why marines would be a problem in PvT, I also think that they might be slightly too strong in TvZ (at pro level that is, below grandmaster nobody has good enough micro to make marines look imbalanced). I never felt like Marines were a good unit in PvT anyway, Marauders yes, but Marines in PvT? Storms and Collossus completely destroy marines. Also if you decrease the rate of fire what's terran bio gonna do against chargelots? Just auto-lose? Have you seen Puma play TvP (no not his 1-1-1s) That isn't evidence for imbalance though.Marines are easily countered by HTs and collossi in big numbers and stalkers in small numbers. Marines definitely aren't imbalanced in PvT and "puma's pvt" definitely doesn't count as evidence either.
Easily countered by Hts and colossus lol. If toss makes it to the point where 6+ colossi with stalker support and a decent economy, he can usually win. Marines make it pretty damn difficult to reach this point because they are insanely cost efficient tier 1 units.
And besides, we KNOW marines are imbalanced in zvt. It's kind of ridiculously obvious and has pretty much been that way since release. PVT is obviously terran favored, if they just nerfed marines to fix tvz it would be worth it and it would very likely alleviate pvt imbalance in the same blow.
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On October 12 2011 06:09 Teoita wrote:
The combination of marine-heavy 2rax openings (gotta play safe!) and 1base allins (gotta open greedy!) that focus around marines make early game pvt a clusterfuck in a lot of situations.
This also sounds a lot like early game ZvT. I'll second this comment and add I don't feel as though this would be a problem if it was more easily scoutable what type of opening they were doing.
"1.4.3 Patch Notes:
Fog of War revealed over Terrans who construct more then one barracks or a factory before a second command center.
Bunker Salvage Rate Reduced to 10% from 75%
MULE is now a cooldown based ability"
Sigh..... I can keep dreaming.
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On October 12 2011 06:10 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. That is so wrong I don't even know what to say. If anything terran is the race who has the hardest time after losing an engagement. Yes you have bunkers, but you just lost all your units and it takes units 25 - 30 seconds to build. So after a big maxed out engagement, they are completely defenseless for at least 25 seconds even if they didn't salvage their bunkers. Protoss however can warp in units 5 seconds after the fight is over. Then you have a 25 second cooldown on the warpgate and need to wait another 5 seconds for your warp in. All in all protoss gets almost twice the amount of units after a maxed battle compared to terran in almost the exact same time. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. it wasn't defender's advantage, it was defender's advantage based on a ridiculously imbalanced mechanic. Yes protoss didn't dominate every matchup back then, but the main reason for that was that timing attacks (mainly terran) were about 10x stronger compared to now, stim got nerfed (I'm not even sure by how much,like a minute?) and protoss players lost alot of games early on because they were too bad to forcefield properly or simply defend the pushes. The game however has evolved now, back then it was mainly rush games in every matchup, now we are at a point in SC2 where we have more macro games than rush games almost. If you give protoss kaydarin back the race is gonna be broken again lategame. might aswell just give protoss an auto-win button after the 20 minute mark or so. How can you even say such a thing? First of all, protoss units are known to be not as good as their zerg/terran counterparts when it comes to efficiency based upon cost when speaking with gateway units. Secondly, "If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again" yet protoss has never ever gone above 52% win ratio...what on earth are you basing your assumption on? Players like idrA? Did you read the graph? Please post something that is actually relevant to the thread and not just shit that makes no sense whatsoever.
Next time read the actual statement before saying Terran imba. KA is needed.
Terran have gotten several nerfs and protoss have gotten several buffs since those days. Not to mention metagame shift. If you really don't see the imbalance of KA then there really is no help for you.
You are lucky I took the time to paraphrase his statement for the special ed.
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On October 12 2011 06:18 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:11 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:08 sjschmidt93 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:04 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 05:59 Drowsy wrote:
Marines are too strong. Nerfing their damage output (in the form of attack speed) would solve pvt and zvt. I don't understand why marines would be a problem in PvT, I also think that they might be slightly too strong in TvZ (at pro level that is, below grandmaster nobody has good enough micro to make marines look imbalanced). I never felt like Marines were a good unit in PvT anyway, Marauders yes, but Marines in PvT? Storms and Collossus completely destroy marines. Also if you decrease the rate of fire what's terran bio gonna do against chargelots? Just auto-lose? Have you seen Puma play TvP (no not his 1-1-1s) That isn't evidence for imbalance though.Marines are easily countered by HTs and collossi in big numbers and stalkers in small numbers. Marines definitely aren't imbalanced in PvT and "puma's pvt" definitely doesn't count as evidence either. Easily countered by Hts and colossus lol. If toss makes it to the point where 6+ colossi with stalker support and a decent economy, he can usually win. Marines make it pretty damn difficult to reach this point because they are insanely cost efficient tier 1 units. And besides, we KNOW marines are imbalanced in zvt. It's kind of ridiculously obvious and has pretty much been that way since release. PVT is obviously terran favored, if they just nerfed marines to fix tvz it would be worth it and it would very likely alleviate pvt imbalance in the same blow.
Well I heard forcefields are good and stalkers fare quite well against marines in small numbers aswell. Don't really see what your point is. Midgame you get collossi, early game you have forcefields and stalkers to counter big marine numbers. Or let me guess, we are assuming that the terran has dropped your mineral line with marines and killed all your probes so you are massively behind right now... or no he sniped the robo and you can't build collossi... are there any other worst case scenarios you can come up with so that marines can actually be overpowered in PvT? Just wondering, I can.... I could also come up with scenarios where zerglings might seem overpowered or sentries....."I have no ghosts - i have no burrow...imba imba". Completely pointless.
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On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on.
Are you playing in like diamond level?
who the hell is going to stock 750 gas? Please exaggerate more.
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On October 12 2011 06:25 Trusty wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 05:53 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 04:11 freetgy wrote:On October 12 2011 04:01 Erasme wrote:
Didn't want to post at first, but really ? KA gave you only a defender advantage ? Don't be silly. And to the poster above, really ? Buffing the zealot would be the worst thing ever. yes it did, after you lose an engagement as protoss there is nothing that makes a terran or zerg think twice about a-moving your base, and there is nothing as protoss that you can do to stop them either. With warp-in storms that was different. On the opposite, Zerg and Terran always have defensive structures they can pull back to and rely on heavily. That's why Zerg and Terran can expand on everymap first, while Protoss only will be able to if they use Forge First and the map "allowes" to safely wall off. If protoss gets kaydarin back it would basically be an impossible lategame for both Z and T again. You kill the protoss army, no problemo, 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you... you kill all of them.... no problemo.... 5 warped in high templars with enough energy for storm are waiting for you.... you kill all of them... no problemo.... and so on. Are you playing in like diamond level? who the hell is going to stock 750 gas? Please exaggerate more.
Never seen a late game I take it?
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On October 12 2011 06:24 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 06:18 Drowsy wrote:On October 12 2011 06:11 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:08 sjschmidt93 wrote:On October 12 2011 06:04 doko100 wrote:On October 12 2011 05:59 Drowsy wrote:
Marines are too strong. Nerfing their damage output (in the form of attack speed) would solve pvt and zvt. I don't understand why marines would be a problem in PvT, I also think that they might be slightly too strong in TvZ (at pro level that is, below grandmaster nobody has good enough micro to make marines look imbalanced). I never felt like Marines were a good unit in PvT anyway, Marauders yes, but Marines in PvT? Storms and Collossus completely destroy marines. Also if you decrease the rate of fire what's terran bio gonna do against chargelots? Just auto-lose? Have you seen Puma play TvP (no not his 1-1-1s) That isn't evidence for imbalance though.Marines are easily countered by HTs and collossi in big numbers and stalkers in small numbers. Marines definitely aren't imbalanced in PvT and "puma's pvt" definitely doesn't count as evidence either. Easily countered by Hts and colossus lol. If toss makes it to the point where 6+ colossi with stalker support and a decent economy, he can usually win. Marines make it pretty damn difficult to reach this point because they are insanely cost efficient tier 1 units. And besides, we KNOW marines are imbalanced in zvt. It's kind of ridiculously obvious and has pretty much been that way since release. PVT is obviously terran favored, if they just nerfed marines to fix tvz it would be worth it and it would very likely alleviate pvt imbalance in the same blow. Well I heard forcefields are good and stalkers fare quite well against marines in small numbers aswell. Don't really see what your point is. Midgame you get collossi, early game you have forcefields and stalkers to counter big marine numbers. Or let me guess, we are assuming that the terran has dropped your mineral line with marines and killed all your probes so you are massively behind right now... or no he sniped the robo and you can't build collossi... are there any other worst case scenarios you can come up with so that marines can actually be overpowered in PvT? Just wondering, I can.... I could also come up with scenarios where zerglings might seem overpowered or sentries....."I have no ghosts - i have no burrow...imba imba". Completely pointless.
You still haven't addressed zvt. Marines are clearly a problem there, and given the fact that terran is way ahead in pvt, marines being nerfed to fix only ZvT probably still wouldn't break pvt.
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Come on guys, respond to arguments by attacking premises and revealing fallacies.
Stop attacking each other; it's frustrating to read and it's only going to aggravate you guys to the point where you'll face punishment.
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EPT
