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On October 10 2011 06:13 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 05:43 Buzzo wrote:
We need to wait a couple of months before judging the balance situation, i don't think the immortal buff will make PvZ and PvT more balanced.
The changes that "killed" protoss are:
- warpgate reasearch time change
- KA removal
- ghost cost change
- infestor buff
The first change made 4 gate useless, so T is free to tech (see the 1-1-1) and Z is free to drone without any problem, the other changes made P far weaker late game.
If Blizzard want to (re)balance the game need to change both P early game power (to compensate the 4 gate nerf) and late game. Seems to me they instead tried (with not success at all) to change protoss mid game (the archon buff and the immortal buff).
I can tell you that GAS is not a problem against protoss, MINERALS are. Changing the ghost to 200 minerals is actually a nerf in tvp.
What a stupid thing to say. If you don't have enough minerals and you have too much gas, take some SCVs off gas and saturate your minerals better. Too often I see top Terran players floating far more gas than minerals. This isn't a balance issue, but a "get better at the game" issue. Sure, once you have a certain number of SCVs on minerals they don't do much more because of maximum saturation, but that still is better than floating a great deal of unnecessary gas.
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P are doing better against T than I would have guessed, and zergs are doing much much worse.
I wonder what the numbers would look like if you eliminated games where terran won using offensive bunkers?
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Can we finally nerf the Marine?
That would be a meaningful nerf that would affect all 3 TvX matches ina positive way.
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On October 10 2011 06:27 algee wrote:
44% + 46% + 56% = messed up in my book
forgive me, im not a huge fan of statistics, could someone explain me what is up with these charts?
other than that, chart looks still fine to me.
the more of blue is probably the 1001 easy win rush styles for terran and the zero ability of people to adapt and come up with a solution, other than the standard forum whine about imbalance.
There's more of one matchup than another.
Let's say there were 10 TvZ, with 60%
Now 5 TvP, also at 60%
and finally 2 ZvP, at 50%
Terrans overall winrate is 60%, 9/15
Zerg's overall winrate is 5/12, 41.6%
Protoss overall winrate is 3/7 42%
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I dont know about you guys but I am really awaiting for that day when I see Terran being under 45% win rate against both, Zerg and Protoss. Why? Cause up to date there has been nerfs and changes, there has been boosts etc. yet Terran has NEVER! Been below 50% win rate.
Whatta freaking Terran lovers there are at Blizzards ranks, making this game such that one race has been dominant all the time? I wait for that day when all those T players who atm. are telling how graphs are lieing and how T is not dominant etc. are crying blood when they are FINALLY playing the worst race of all and losing more than winning. That would be SO awesome to see. Cause these forums and blizz forums etc. would go nuts of the amount of posts all those sorry ass A-move MMM and BFH players would nonstop tell how this game sucks and how their race need more and more buff and other should be nerfed.
I dont know about others but would prolly die to laughter if that one day happend.
User was warned for this post
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On October 10 2011 06:48 Jermstuddog wrote:
Can we finally nerf the Marine?
That would be a meaningful nerf that would affect all 3 TvX matches ina positive way.
Yes, and then you will show us how to hold a voidray allin, or a 6gate, or a 2base blingbust, or just a zerg in general.
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On October 10 2011 07:36 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 06:48 Jermstuddog wrote:
Can we finally nerf the Marine?
That would be a meaningful nerf that would affect all 3 TvX matches ina positive way. Yes, and then you will show us how to hold a voidray allin, or a 6gate, or a 2base blingbust, or just a zerg in general.
Then you'd know how PvT feels for a Protoss. 
That said, nerfing the Marine is probably way too drastic for a mere patch. I still think you can drastically improve PvT winrate simply by making CCs unliftable - aka, allowing Protoss to actually distinguish between an all-in and an FE without making an observer.
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On October 10 2011 03:07 Excludos wrote:
While the PvT (while worse than last, isn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be) and PvZ is bad..what in the world is going on with TvZ atm? I haven't noticed any skews in the metagame that should make such big of a difference.
Terrans have been going up to 3 CC very quickly, while taking map control early on by using Hellions to hard counter Zerglings. It turns out, that when they do that, they don't need to kill a single Drone, and they can still be ahead of Zerg economically, turtle up with lots of turrets to shut down any Muta harass, and after they're up on 3 bases, begin doing pushes with their bio-mech ball which is so much more cost efficient than anything Zerg can stop it with. Even if the Zerg is able to completely crush the first couple of pushes, there's always another army behind waiting to push out. At this point Zerg needs to take a 4th and 5th, and is really spread out, so Terran starts doing drops with 3/3 Marines, which take out Hatcheries and any defensive Spines out in an instant. Zerg begins to lose more and more with each push and the drops kill the economy and Zerg runs out of gas. Same story pretty much every macro game recently where Terran doesn't make a huge blunder. Even when Terran does fall significantly behind, it doesn't mean the game is over, just like we saw in DRG vs Supernova on Daybreak.
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On October 10 2011 07:57 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 03:07 Excludos wrote:
While the PvT (while worse than last, isn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be) and PvZ is bad..what in the world is going on with TvZ atm? I haven't noticed any skews in the metagame that should make such big of a difference. Terrans have been going up to 3 CC very quickly, while taking map control early on by using Hellions to hard counter Zerglings. It turns out, that when they do that, they don't need to kill a single Drone, and they can still be ahead of Zerg economically, turtle up with lots of turrets to shut down any Muta harass, and after they're up on 3 bases, begin doing pushes with their bio-mech ball which is so much more cost efficient than anything Zerg can stop it with. Even if the Zerg is able to completely crush the first couple of pushes, there's always another army behind waiting to push out. At this point Zerg needs to take a 4th and 5th, and is really spread out, so Terran starts doing drops with 3/3 Marines, which take out Hatcheries and any defensive Spines out in an instant. Zerg begins to lose more and more with each push and the drops kill the economy and Zerg runs out of gas. Same story pretty much every macro game recently where Terran doesn't make a huge blunder. Even when Terran does fall significantly behind, it doesn't mean the game is over, just like we saw in DRG vs Supernova on Daybreak.
when the zerg gets destroyed by marinedrops, while h has mutalisks out it is hist own goddamn fault.
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On October 10 2011 06:48 Jermstuddog wrote:
Can we finally nerf the Marine?
That would be a meaningful nerf that would affect all 3 TvX matches ina positive way.
You should watch IPL. Poor Poor Terran vs Zerg T_T. Not enough Zerg go for the back stab or ling runby.
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On October 10 2011 07:36 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 06:48 Jermstuddog wrote:
Can we finally nerf the Marine?
That would be a meaningful nerf that would affect all 3 TvX matches ina positive way. Yes, and then you will show us how to hold a voidray allin, or a 6gate, or a 2base blingbust, or just a zerg in general.
Just so you know, you don't hold a 2 base blingbust with Marines. Seriously, unless the Terran is somehow going mech, the ZvT ends up being "how to efficiently kill marines".
On October 10 2011 07:43 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 07:36 Snowbear wrote:On October 10 2011 06:48 Jermstuddog wrote:
Can we finally nerf the Marine?
That would be a meaningful nerf that would affect all 3 TvX matches ina positive way. Yes, and then you will show us how to hold a voidray allin, or a 6gate, or a 2base blingbust, or just a zerg in general. Then you'd know how PvT feels for a Protoss. That said, nerfing the Marine is probably way too drastic for a mere patch. I still think you can drastically improve PvT winrate simply by making CCs unliftable - aka, allowing Protoss to actually distinguish between an all-in and an FE without making an observer.
Well from the graph, PvT seems much better than you would think. ZvT is apparently even worse. Us Zergs don't qq about it too much though, and only really about the ghosts. Oh, and the knowing whether the terran makes a cc or throwing down 4 more raxes, us zerg have the same problem too lol. See Idra vs MMA at MLG (the one where MMA blew up his cc) the game after. It's what happens when Z assumes T throws up a cc after the 2 rax.
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On October 10 2011 17:45 me_viet wrote:
ZvT is apparently even worse. Us Zergs don't qq about it too much though, and only really about the ghosts.
Spat my drink out. Thanks! Will post more later...
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On October 11 2011 09:43 Fwiffo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 17:45 me_viet wrote:
ZvT is apparently even worse. Us Zergs don't qq about it too much though, and only really about the ghosts. Spat my drink out. Thanks! Will post more later...
You can certainly try.
I think ZvT is >>> PvT. But that doesn't stop T from being broken.
I think aebriol said a lot of correct things here. I am just hoping that we can see some balance brought to the game in HoTS.
Terran wasn't bellow 50% win rate in any MU since release. Whether you look at it logically , statically, or whichever way, Terran is very clearly the most well rounded and the best race.
On October 09 2011 21:07 aebriol wrote:
2) Terran is just overall overpowered. Not really because of their units or composition, but because of their superior scouting mechanics, and superior scout-denying mechanics, and sick defenders advantage.
Other players expand: you can scout it 100% of the time. And snipe the expansion often. Terran expand? You have no idea, and they can lift off and retreat. You see a barrack with a tech lab building ... well that can mean banshees soon, or stim soon ... You try to get into the base? They have marines on the edges, and a wall in front.
Now protoss have stalkers, but at least you can see if they expanded.
Zerg you can just run into their base and take a look around, not like it will be stopped before you are on creep.
Repair for Terran means they can be, with very little units, safe from early game attacks. And they can, with very few units, be insanely offensive, with bunkers. It's a bit of the same for protoss with cannon rushes - except that Terran can get their investment back with cancel / salvage, and it's extremely hard to tell if it's a fake or not. A cannon rush at least gives the information that there's a forge somewhere, and so not teching. A bunker rush means ... nothing. It can be 2 barracks marine, it can be reactored hellions, it can be banshee, it can be ... anything.
I strongly feel that with no fog of war, with everyone being able to see exactly what the opponent is doing, Terran would in no way shape or form be overpowered.
But they can simply hide what they are doing better than the other races in the early game.
Now, late game, a nerf to ghosts would be the only thing that is needed to change to bring the game back to balance I feel ...
But the overall problem is early game information gathering and reactions.
Because the 'correct' response to 4 hellions for Zerg, is completely different from the correct response to 8 hellions as Zerg. The response to 4 hellions (few speedlings, queens, tech to lair ling bling muta for the inevitable marine tank medivac push), ensures a loss vs 8 (roaches, counter attack, expect mech play) ... most of the time. And that's just very very annoying.
So yeah ... sentries coming with hallucination but it costing more energy, overlord speed researched at hatch tech for example would be interesting.
Also, it kinda works as a proof when you see what Zergs we have in Code S. DRG/Losira/Nestea/Leenock....all so good. Only few Terrans can compare to them, yet we keep comparing them.
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i dont think that this is that bad for a game thats only been out for a year. i mean shit, you have to give SC2 some time. how long did it take to balance BW? years? something like a decade? protoss is doing horrible right now, and thats fine, because eventually that will change. its not going to change instantly, but it will change.
[edit]-fix ghosts and bfh, ffs. >.>
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On October 11 2011 15:59 Soulriser wrote:
i dont think that this is that bad for a game thats only been out for a year. i mean shit, you have to give SC2 some time. how long did it take to balance BW? years? something like a decade? protoss is doing horrible right now, and thats fine, because eventually that will change. its not going to change instantly, but it will change.
Broodwar is not balanced.
People just learned to leave with what they are given (accepted how things are, gave up whatever).
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On October 10 2011 06:22 kodas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 14:55 dooraven wrote:On October 09 2011 13:39 kodas wrote:On October 09 2011 01:24 freetgy wrote:On October 09 2011 01:19 Snowbear wrote:On October 08 2011 05:21 Gatored wrote:On October 08 2011 03:50 CuHz wrote:
if i could be able to start over; i wish i started off picking terran in BW + sc2. I sometimes offrace as terran and i dont even know their hot keys and i can easily beat top master player protsses =X. I think every protoss feels that way. Don't forget that there are alot of terrans I know which defeat top terran players with protoss without even trying... replay or it didn't happen  we have seen mc off racing as terran and defeating people easily. MKP(as protoss) vs slayersMMA, At the last GSL final. Rofl those were joke games... Name a SERIOUS game that MC has won as Terran vs anyone.... The only reason I said anything about those games is because the only time I can think of MC playing Terran and beating people is at that same event...But I guess you wanted to just throw context to the wind..
Wait, I never said that MC played serious games with Terran. I was replying to the comment that apparently Terrans do awesomely with Protoss as evidenced by that game..
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Protoss lacks variation, every opening is the same, old and dull.
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It's funny that everyone thinks T is OP. In pro play they maybe are,but for casual players (everything below grandmaster) Terran is the weakest race, you can go to sc2ranks and look at the average points per player or wins/player and you will see that terran is far worse than zerg or protoss in the lower leagues. Nerfing terran much more would break the game for casual terran players even more, yes it would help pro players but blizzard also has to focus on the casuals. Terran has already gone from the most played race to the least played race, and it definitely isn't in blizzard's interest that terran players quit the game simply because their race is so bad at casual level. terran is only really imba if you have the macro and micro of a mvp.
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On October 11 2011 20:38 doko100 wrote:
It's funny that everyone thinks T is OP. In pro play they maybe are,but for casual players (everything below grandmaster) Terran is the weakest race, you can go to sc2ranks and look at the average points per player or wins/player and you will see that terran is far worse than zerg or protoss in the lower leagues. Nerfing terran much more would break the game for casual terran players even more, yes it would help pro players but blizzard also has to focus on the casuals. Terran has already gone from the most played race to the least played race, and it definitely isn't in blizzard's interest that terran players quit the game simply because their race is so bad at casual level. terran is only really imba if you have the macro and micro of a mvp.
This isn't true at all. In masters the 3 races are almost exactly even. In diamond and platinum they are slightly behind the other 2 but there are still plenty of terran. In gold they have the second most and there are far more terran in silver and bronze.
So overall there are far more terran players than anyone else (as bronze and silver are by far the most populated brackets). The only bracket where your argument holds any ground is in diamond and platinum but they are pretty even overall anyway.
This is worldwide by the way.
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Thank you so much for posting a color blind version!
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EPT
