EPTOrdered by Tournament not actual date ( as data is from Gomtv.net)
![[image loading]](http://s3.postimage.org/xfa1hbus/Race_Winrate_Stats_GSL_2011.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://s3.postimage.org/xgqyofno/Rv_R_Stats_GSL_2011.jpg)
edit: added numbers for TvZ Graph
[September] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 11
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InFi.asc
Germany518 Posts
Ordered by Tournament not actual date ( as data is from Gomtv.net) edit: added numbers for TvZ Graph | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On October 09 2011 20:26 CatNzHat wrote:In the past terran was OP, and everyone knew it, right now though, terran is not OP by any means and does not need nerfing (think of a specific unit ,or upgrade, or build time that makes terran too powerful, and then cite 10+ games where that has caused a player to win the game that he wouldn't have otherwise). Ha. That is the problem - there is no one single mechanic or statistic that is ruining the game. It is a combination of lots of them - FF/Warp Gate meaning Gateway units (specifically Stalkers) have to suck donkey balls in straight up fights and the subsequent Protoss reliance on Colossi/HTs (and the complete removal of KA), the Marine getting a massive boost from the BW days, the addition of the Marauder, the slight nerfing of the Zealot, the shiftable tech labs/reactors, the Ghost's massive advantage over the HT and the lack of an adequate "counter" etc. All of these combine to give a couple of situations where the game looks totally imbalanced (see MC vs PuMa last IEM). | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On October 09 2011 20:51 InFi.asc wrote: Here is my contribution of GSL only for 2011 so far. Ordered by Tournament not actual date ( as data is from Gomtv.net) edit: added numbers for TvZ Graph Well now I'm sad. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
2) Terran is just overall overpowered. Not really because of their units or composition, but because of their superior scouting mechanics, and superior scout-denying mechanics, and sick defenders advantage. Other players expand: you can scout it 100% of the time. And snipe the expansion often. Terran expand? You have no idea, and they can lift off and retreat. You see a barrack with a tech lab building ... well that can mean banshees soon, or stim soon ... You try to get into the base? They have marines on the edges, and a wall in front. Now protoss have stalkers, but at least you can see if they expanded. Zerg you can just run into their base and take a look around, not like it will be stopped before you are on creep. Repair for Terran means they can be, with very little units, safe from early game attacks. And they can, with very few units, be insanely offensive, with bunkers. It's a bit of the same for protoss with cannon rushes - except that Terran can get their investment back with cancel / salvage, and it's extremely hard to tell if it's a fake or not. A cannon rush at least gives the information that there's a forge somewhere, and so not teching. A bunker rush means ... nothing. It can be 2 barracks marine, it can be reactored hellions, it can be banshee, it can be ... anything. I strongly feel that with no fog of war, with everyone being able to see exactly what the opponent is doing, Terran would in no way shape or form be overpowered. But they can simply hide what they are doing better than the other races in the early game. Now, late game, a nerf to ghosts would be the only thing that is needed to change to bring the game back to balance I feel ... But the overall problem is early game information gathering and reactions. Because the 'correct' response to 4 hellions for Zerg, is completely different from the correct response to 8 hellions as Zerg. The response to 4 hellions (few speedlings, queens, tech to lair ling bling muta for the inevitable marine tank medivac push), ensures a loss vs 8 (roaches, counter attack, expect mech play) ... most of the time. And that's just very very annoying. So yeah ... sentries coming with hallucination but it costing more energy, overlord speed researched at hatch tech for example would be interesting. | ||
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Da.Frozzy
76 Posts
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Hister
United States89 Posts
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Gheizen64
Italy2077 Posts
But no, seriously, after such a big patch we need at least a couple of month before seeing more stable build orders and whatsnot. | ||
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Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
On October 09 2011 20:51 InFi.asc wrote: Here is my contribution of GSL only for 2011 so far. Ordered by Tournament not actual date ( as data is from Gomtv.net) edit: added numbers for TvZ Graph Wow, I didný realize PvZ was that bad last months. 26% :O Ofcourse this is a small sample size but that explains why there are no Protoss left. Both Zerg and Terran had literaly double the winrate, 60% vs 30%. But things are looking up again due to the Code A Protoss doing better. Also interesting to see that Zerg has actually been pretty much even with Terran this year apart from the first two months. | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On October 09 2011 20:52 SeaSwift wrote: Ha. That is the problem - there is no one single mechanic or statistic that is ruining the game. It is a combination of lots of them - FF/Warp Gate meaning Gateway units (specifically Stalkers) have to suck donkey balls in straight up fights and the subsequent Protoss reliance on Colossi/HTs (and the complete removal of KA), the Marine getting a massive boost from the BW days, the addition of the Marauder, the slight nerfing of the Zealot, the shiftable tech labs/reactors, the Ghost's massive advantage over the HT and the lack of an adequate "counter" etc. All of these combine to give a couple of situations where the game looks totally imbalanced (see MC vs PuMa last IEM). Small correction: the sentry was an attempted solution, not a cause. Blizzard's original design was that we'd have the immortal on the gateway, with them being a dedicated combat unit while stalkers were for harass/emergency AA. They realized that's a bad idea, but instead of changing the immortal they bumped it onto the robo while making stalkers a little beefier and increasing blink's cooldown. That wasn't enough, so they added the sentry. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On October 09 2011 20:44 arbitrageur wrote: I lol at all the people crying balance. Please learn anything about statistics. The sample is biased. It is not a closed system. There are contaminants (Koreans) in the system and until they are adequately controlled for (i.e. completely deleted from the sample) no conclusions or even inferences can be drawn. Everyone making balance conclusions is a complete fool. I always love it when someone displays an arrogant attitude, calls other people names, and subsequently reveals their own total ignorance. So let me makes this clear for you, my friend: This data is all-inclusive, it contains all the data from TLPD for this time period, including GSL matches, ESV Weeklies, and so forth. There are no contaminants, everything is accounted for. You can try to make an argument that the scenes aren't sufficiently connected, and that this may introduce bias into the data, but that's not clear-cut at all, and would require a very technical argument. Do note that Protoss winrates in the KR-only data are way worse, so it's a bit difficult to argue that it's the Korean Terrans and Zergs smashing foreigner Protoss that produces the perceived imbalance. Overall, I will say that anyone trying to dismiss these numbers will just believe anything they want regardless of evidence presented, so they should probably just pretend this thread doesn't exist, for the benefit of everyone involved. Go all the way with your denial, bros, you know you want to. | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On October 08 2011 00:52 ZorBa.G wrote: Terran is just the "most worked out" race atm. Us Terrans keep playing to learn new BO's, tricks ect whilst Protoss and Zerg just come on the forums to QQ how OP Terran is............. Protoss needs to get out of the 1 A deathball mode and try other shit. Zerg still have light years ahead yet to even get close to working out their race. With how greedy they play atm, I don't think this will happen for a while. Honestly, how many Terran BO threads do you see in the TL forums as opposed the Protoss builds and Zerg builds? Terrans not OP imo. Toss % Zerg just need some innovation! LOL. I'm actually with you on the notion that the conversation should be about learning new ways to play. But I have to laugh at your "1 A deathball mode" accusations. Are these 1-A-deathball-toss those you encounter on the ladder? Those you witness playing in major tournaments? I'm seeing a ton of innovation from toss...a ton of effort spent on non-deathball tactics. Kiwikaki vs Stephano: Kiwi's opening build has been based on guerrilla-zealot tactics to snipe the Zerg third. Those of us using warp prisms (White Ra does so as well) have been pursuing a similar non-deathball approach. tl;dr You sound like you're mired in a March-2011-frame-of-mind. What metagame are you referring to that allows you to dismiss the current-toss approach to the game as a simple "1 A deathball mode"? | ||
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
On October 09 2011 21:42 Logros wrote: Wow, I didný realize PvZ was that bad last months. 26% :O Ofcourse this is a small sample size but that explains why there are no Protoss left. Both Zerg and Terran had literaly double the winrate, 60% vs 30%. But things are looking up again due to the Code A Protoss doing better. Also interesting to see that Zerg has actually been pretty much even with Terran this year apart from the first two months. Could the Code A Protoss being better be because Protoss isn't actually weaker but on a comeback ORRRR Because the Protoss players with Code S skill are in Code A because of racial imbalance? a 30% deficit in both matchups is NOT BALANCED. Terrancraft.. | ||
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Loodah
335 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13408 Posts
 Hopefully october turns out better for protoss players if the Code A protosses can make their way into Code S | ||
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InFi.asc
Germany518 Posts
On October 10 2011 00:45 ZeromuS wrote: these charts always make me sad. Hopefully october turns out better for protoss players if the Code A protosses can make their way into Code Sthat's what we said last GSL :D | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13408 Posts
Don't remind me >.< | ||
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Morphs
Netherlands645 Posts
The problem is that Terran rewards high skill far more than Zerg or Protoss. Terran has just got more stuff to work with and that is the result of having received the most development-time when Blizzard made SC2. Let's hope they fix this by adding more stuff to Zerg and Protoss so highly skilled korean Zergs and Protosses can shine as well. | ||
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InFi.asc
Germany518 Posts
this and HTs are too damn slow t_t | ||
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Crissaegrim
2947 Posts
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bLooD.
Germany470 Posts
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