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On October 09 2011 15:39 nt-rAven wrote:
protoss is just no longer cost effective, and the im quite sure blizzard knows this at a high level but protoss is still op at lower level... ever since they took out amulet (protoss at the that time i remember very clearly were the only race using ht, ghost or infestor yes this is general but it was actually a strat to go for hts unlike other races where it was just reaction) was the biggest blow to the protoss race, you can never come back after losing your entire army as protoss, it is not possible, where as other races can do it through macro (zerg) or defense (terran)... you cant as protoss its just not possible, they claim the protoss 'defensive unit' was the mothership but in reality the protoss defensive unit was always the ht that can warp in storm and prevent a push, to enable a comback and of course other races can just not attack and expand... every race except protoss has that capability now (sorry forcefeilds dont cut it defensivly)!~
Amulat removal was due to completely rapeage of everything. With 15 gates and 2 robo's you remax almost as quickly as a zerg..
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On October 07 2011 22:54 MorroW wrote:just give it a month with the new patch and things will start look better  no need to call game imbalanced now when patch just came and in the sc1 stats u can see it constantly changing even if maps and patch is the same. its just the players builds that are evolving
Nah. Protoss has been doing pretty bad collectively. I mean if Zerg was having such a hard time against protoss and it did, all we heard for two months was protoss OP, protoss death ball, voidrays imba, colossus imba, etc... But now that protoss have been doing poorly for far more time like 3-4 months its nothing.
I feel like if this month protoss does not start climbing up, Blizzard should buff the zealot. Do you agree with me. Right now the zealot is actually weaker than the Brood War zealot and ranged units in SC2 are so much more powerful. In fact I think if the zealot was buffed like +20 shields or something, 1-1-1 build would become much more harder to do.
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On October 09 2011 18:42 ZaaaaaM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 15:39 nt-rAven wrote:
protoss is just no longer cost effective, and the im quite sure blizzard knows this at a high level but protoss is still op at lower level... ever since they took out amulet (protoss at the that time i remember very clearly were the only race using ht, ghost or infestor yes this is general but it was actually a strat to go for hts unlike other races where it was just reaction) was the biggest blow to the protoss race, you can never come back after losing your entire army as protoss, it is not possible, where as other races can do it through macro (zerg) or defense (terran)... you cant as protoss its just not possible, they claim the protoss 'defensive unit' was the mothership but in reality the protoss defensive unit was always the ht that can warp in storm and prevent a push, to enable a comback and of course other races can just not attack and expand... every race except protoss has that capability now (sorry forcefeilds dont cut it defensivly)!~ Amulat removal was due to completely rapeage of everything. With 15 gates and 2 robo's you remax almost as quickly as a zerg..
No Amulet removal was completely stupid.
KA was removed in march.
Look at the winrates up to that point. Protoss never went above 51.7%. It gave Protoss a defender's advantage, something they desperately needed at later stages of the game as Forcefielding ramps no longer becomes an option at 3+bases.
You can argue that it would've been imbalanced once players played more, and I will argue there was NOWHERE near enough data to make a change as huge as removing KA.
I honestly believe blizzard did not think through the KA removal change very well. Their reasoning for its removal was they believed that Protoss late game AOE was too strong. They didn't mention specifically how it affected matchups, or how it affected compositions. they simply believed Protoss had too many late game AOE. It wasn't a balance change, it was a design decision. And they did not think very thoroughly at all of the implications it would have on balance.
Regardless of balance or not, Blizzard made a huge mistake in removing KA just based on the data (specifically, the lack of data) they had at the time.
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It would be much easier to balance this game had there not been the Zerg race. Spawn Larvae will haunt Blizzard for the entire lifetime of SC2.
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On October 09 2011 19:49 usethis2 wrote:
It would be much easier to balance this game had there not been the Zerg race. Spawn Larvae will haunt Blizzard for the entire lifetime of SC2.
I think it's marines/marauders(against P) that are haunting sc2 balance
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On October 08 2011 00:08 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
Looking good IMO,
the game would be nothing but coinflipping if it was just 50%
i nominate this as dumbest comment on tl
the game will be amazing imo if terran has %85 win rate and 30 terrans playing in gsl ro32
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On October 09 2011 17:52 arbitrageur wrote:
These stats mean 0 until controlledf for Koreans.
Korean Terrans and Zergs been in pretty much every foreign tourney. Korean protoss? like 10% of the representation.
i agree. especially the terran dominance in foreign tournaments can be explained with that.
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On October 09 2011 19:51 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 19:49 usethis2 wrote:
It would be much easier to balance this game had there not been the Zerg race. Spawn Larvae will haunt Blizzard for the entire lifetime of SC2. I think it's marines/marauders(against P) that are haunting sc2 balance
Those are units. Easy to change stats. Remember that Blizzard once attempted to nerf Spawn Larvae by making players tab a hotkey million times to train same multiple units instead of press-and-hold, under the guise of "bug fix"? That was a crazy idea if you think about it. (And no, I don't play Z) That lame attempt was rightfully revoked but you can definitely gauge the difficulty Blizzard is having in order to balance the Zerg race.
I'm aware of a couple more similar "bug fixes" that are related to Zerg. And I think everything goes right back down to Spawn Larvae.
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On October 08 2011 00:08 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
Looking good IMO,
the game would be nothing but coinflipping if it was just 50%
You should get an award for the most clueless person on this forum.
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Glad to see that Protoss are not coming back and continuously getting worse. Maybe it will force Blizzard to actually revamp the design of the race for HotS. But honestly I highly doubt that they will. They will just add a new unit that will make Protoss completely overpowered ("Yay! Protoss is back! Thanks Blizzard!"), then this unit will be nerfed to oblivion and Protoss will suck again.
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On October 09 2011 20:16 ZenithM wrote:
Glad to see that Protoss are not coming back and continuously getting worse. Maybe it will force Blizzard to actually revamp the design of the race for HotS. But honestly I highly doubt that they will. They will just add a new unit that will make Protoss completely overpowered ("Yay! Protoss is back! Thanks Blizzard!"), then this unit will be nerfed to oblivion and Protoss will suck again.
Horrible mentality.
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On October 08 2011 02:06 Reborn8u wrote:
A lot of people are in denial that a problem exists. It is not a coincidence that Terran has been on top for 12 months, with over 10 thousand games a month factored in. Both Protoss and Zerg have spent a lot of time below 45% in some match ups, Terran has never even come close to that.
The problem is that you're ignoring the fact that the current balance is within around 5% winrate wise, and rarely do you see a player win just because their race has an OP strat that is completely broke and needs patching (the immortal busts are starting to look like that though).
Anyways, basically the game is balanced around maps right now, with a given map pool a given race will be favored in some matchups, and possibly unfavored in others.
In the past terran was OP, and everyone knew it, right now though, terran is not OP by any means and does not need nerfing (think of a specific unit ,or upgrade, or build time that makes terran too powerful, and then cite 10+ games where that has caused a player to win the game that he wouldn't have otherwise).
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On October 09 2011 18:57 TheBomb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2011 22:54 MorroW wrote:just give it a month with the new patch and things will start look better no need to call game imbalanced now when patch just came and in the sc1 stats u can see it constantly changing even if maps and patch is the same. its just the players builds that are evolving Nah. Protoss has been doing pretty bad collectively. I mean if Zerg was having such a hard time against protoss and it did, all we heard for two months was protoss OP, protoss death ball, voidrays imba, colossus imba, etc... But now that protoss have been doing poorly for far more time like 3-4 months its nothing. I feel like if this month protoss does not start climbing up, Blizzard should buff the zealot. Do you agree with me. Right now the zealot is actually weaker than the Brood War zealot and ranged units in SC2 are so much more powerful. In fact I think if the zealot was buffed like +20 shields or something, 1-1-1 build would become much more harder to do.
Late game TvP would be heavily Protoss favoured then.
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On October 09 2011 19:41 GhostFall wrote:
It gave Protoss a defender's advantage, something they desperately needed at later stages of the game as Forcefielding ramps no longer becomes an option at 3+bases.
The thing is that KA gave toss a huge advantage to be able to warp in a spellcaster anywhere on the map with all his spells ready to cast. The reasoning of nerfing KA was that letting HT's wait for storms is equal to letting ghosts or infestors run from the base. It was just too strong to get such a strong unit with such a strong spell ready at once anywhere on the map where you had a pylon.
So as always toss is balanced for attack, not defense.
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On October 09 2011 20:29 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 18:57 TheBomb wrote:On October 07 2011 22:54 MorroW wrote:just give it a month with the new patch and things will start look better no need to call game imbalanced now when patch just came and in the sc1 stats u can see it constantly changing even if maps and patch is the same. its just the players builds that are evolving Nah. Protoss has been doing pretty bad collectively. I mean if Zerg was having such a hard time against protoss and it did, all we heard for two months was protoss OP, protoss death ball, voidrays imba, colossus imba, etc... But now that protoss have been doing poorly for far more time like 3-4 months its nothing. I feel like if this month protoss does not start climbing up, Blizzard should buff the zealot. Do you agree with me. Right now the zealot is actually weaker than the Brood War zealot and ranged units in SC2 are so much more powerful. In fact I think if the zealot was buffed like +20 shields or something, 1-1-1 build would become much more harder to do. Late game TvP would be heavily Protoss favoured then.
Actually it would be just about the same considering the effect of EMP and that a +20 shield buff would still have shields under 100. While I'm not much of a fan of the suggested buff, i do not agree with your statement due to the popularity of ghosts in lategame pvt.
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Italy12248 Posts
On October 09 2011 19:51 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 19:49 usethis2 wrote:
It would be much easier to balance this game had there not been the Zerg race. Spawn Larvae will haunt Blizzard for the entire lifetime of SC2. I think it's marines/marauders(against P) that are haunting sc2 balance
Also warpgates and forcefields. Honestly if feels as if we are playing a badly designed alpha version of a game sometimes.
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No surprises there really.
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I lol at all the people crying balance. Please learn anything about statistics. The sample is biased. It is not a closed system. There are contaminants (Koreans) in the system and until they are adequately controlled for (i.e. completely deleted from the sample) no conclusions or even inferences can be drawn. Everyone making balance conclusions is a complete fool.
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On October 09 2011 17:42 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 15:37 Aterons_toss wrote:
Its sad to look at those ratios and then think Xel naga fortress /Dual sight are still in the map pool of so many tournaments.
Also i never thought TvZ was doing this bad... you do realize dual sight is considered as zerg favored right daybreak + dualsight was the reason why so few terrans made it through code A quals for sept. why would you want to remove it... unless you're talking about pvz only? cause it's an awful map for toss to play on vs zerg
Do you have any statistical evidence to back your claims of fact?
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On October 09 2011 20:22 slam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 20:16 ZenithM wrote:
Glad to see that Protoss are not coming back and continuously getting worse. Maybe it will force Blizzard to actually revamp the design of the race for HotS. But honestly I highly doubt that they will. They will just add a new unit that will make Protoss completely overpowered ("Yay! Protoss is back! Thanks Blizzard!"), then this unit will be nerfed to oblivion and Protoss will suck again. Horrible mentality.
It's quite an optimistic mentality as a watcher actually (not as a player obviously). I only care about balance at the highest level and not when I play myself (because I will roll over/get rolled over by terrans 50% of the time with Blizzard's system, regardless of their skill as RTS players, and I can always find something to improve on, which is not so obvious for top players).
What I meant is that eventually there will be a point where Protoss cannot possibly get lower in win ratio and then maybe people will have a look at it. The other perception is to hope that someone will revolutionize Protoss play or that everybody will get better as a whole. That's fine too, but I just don't see it happening, it's a bit delusional to think that current Protoss players are garbage and cannot figure out the race they have been playing for a year.
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