EPT[September] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 19
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Hipsv
135 Posts
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
On October 12 2011 17:40 ExO_ wrote: *ahem* Look at may, and watch the trend from there. You know that they are still at roughly 50pc in GSTL yeah? Its not an individual league but it shows if protoss are given the right maps and the right opponents they can do just as well as any other race. Taking samples of games from gsl where maps arent even picked by the players half the time isnt the best way to look at winrate. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/leagues/1555_GSTL_Season_1 | ||
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Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
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Not_That
287 Posts
On October 12 2011 21:28 Ganseng wrote: The number of games is absolutely insufficient. It's insufficient to the point that I'd call these stats irrelevant, by all due respect and appreciation of effort that the TL stuff puts in them. No one cares about ladder stats. These are the stats from the tournaments where the big boys play, and they are the only stats that matter. | ||
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Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
And more than that, believe it or not, there were more than 900 games in tournaments in September, much more. | ||
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insolentrus
Russian Federation304 Posts
blizzard bring back the KA.... im sure even with KA protoss not make more than 50% win rate now -_- | ||
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Shorty90
Germany154 Posts
On October 13 2011 15:28 Ganseng wrote: You know I care about stats on ladder, I don't want to be a-moved to death every thingle time because I'm not as good as Korean pros and I can't split marines and target fire banelings and kite and land EMPs and drop like them and macro up at the same time. There are millions of us, and we are supposed to have fun playing, not just watching the game. And more than that, believe it or not, there were more than 900 games in tournaments in September, much more. This doesn't matter. If you don't do the stuff you're talking about than you deserve to lose and should improve before complaining about anything. Also it's just foolish to think that terran has to do more to win and only sounds like you're whining. | ||
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ExO_
United States2316 Posts
On October 12 2011 21:22 T0fuuu wrote: You know that they are still at roughly 50pc in GSTL yeah? Its not an individual league but it shows if protoss are given the right maps and the right opponents they can do just as well as any other race. Taking samples of games from gsl where maps arent even picked by the players half the time isnt the best way to look at winrate. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/leagues/1555_GSTL_Season_1 That's a terrible example, because I can turn right around and say look at GSL, and then what happens. I think everybody would agree GSTL is a much more unique scenario than standard 1v1 tournaments. Edit: and I would like to highlight "given the right maps and right opponents". Any race can be at 50% given those 2 things. Problem is more often than not, you won't get them | ||
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Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
On October 13 2011 15:49 Shorty90 wrote: This doesn't matter. If you don't do the stuff you're talking about than you deserve to lose and should improve before complaining about anything. Also it's just foolish to think that terran has to do more to win and only sounds like you're whining. It sounds like Protoss are whining non-stop for a month now. | ||
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Not_That
287 Posts
On October 13 2011 16:09 Ganseng wrote: It sounds like Protoss are whining non-stop for a month now. Protoss have been whining for a lot longer than a month, and they will continue to do so until Blizzard does something to bring them more up to par with the other races. Look at the win stats and see if you can tell why... | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
Yes, Terran can retreat to bunkers, but aren't there photon cannons at the protoss expansions? They cost only minerals after all. Personally as a terran would trade bunkers and missile turrets for photon cannons in a heart beat. A defensive structure that costs no gas and no supply, is errected reasonable fast and shoots ground? Hell yeah! You say PF is soooo good? PF costs 150/150 and the opportunity cost of 3 SCVs (that the constant MULE from an orbital would have provided. I would say it's fair to equate that with 4 photon cannons. With a full chargelot/archon warpin those 4 cannons will fare as well against most surviving terran armies as a PF with one round of bio troops coming after 15 secs. I think a protoss has already provided us with the example, why terran needs 1.5 min to catch up with protoss production on equal rax/gateway count, though for some reason the protoss doesn't use chronoboost. He also failed to mention the fact that gateways that are being camped are still useful, because the reinforcements can group up at any pylon without problems whereas terrans suffer heavy losses as their units leave the raxes in little groups. The moment the forge is a natural part of a BO is the moment the protoss defenders advantage exceeds the terran's. Note: I'm just commenting on the "Toss need KA for late game defenders advantage" arguement. I do NOT say that P>T or that T>P. | ||
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galivet
288 Posts
One kind of "solution" is to make the easier race even easier through naked buffs like +1 immortal range. But it's really hit-or-miss whether or not that effects the pro level. For example, a pro player playing at the protoss skill-cap probably saw no benefit from +1 immortal range because he's already skilled enough at micro to ensure that his immortals are always in range and target-firing appropriately. The better kind of solution is to raise the skill-cap of the weaker race by adding new micro-intensive units and/or abilities. And that's what Blizzard is going to do in the expansion. There are three kinds of players: "Protoss is already strong enough, maybe too strong": You need to get better at the game. "Protoss is underpowered, but every time blizzard buffs the race it seems to get stronger": You need to get better at the game. "Protoss is underpowered, and none of blizzard's buffs help": You need to wait on the expansion because your problem is either playing protoss close to the race's skillcap or playing against protoss opponents who can't beat you because they are skill-capped. | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On October 12 2011 21:28 Ganseng wrote: The number of games is absolutely insufficient. It's insufficient to the point that I'd call these stats irrelevant, by all due respect and appreciation of effort that the TL stuff puts in them. Prove it. Since you can either do the math very fast in your head or you have it written down somewhere it should be very easy for you to show it to the rest of us, right? Or are you just another one of those "Oh I heard the word 'sample size' somewhere, better post something about it!!" guys? Edit: Do 95% | ||
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NoScary
United States151 Posts
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
On October 13 2011 15:56 ExO_ wrote: Edit: and I would like to highlight "given the right maps and right opponents". Any race can be at 50% given those 2 things. Problem is more often than not, you won't get them Well then the game isnt broken or imbalanced. We just need better maps and a better tournament format. GSTL is interesting because players are picked to be sent out and maps are known ahead of time. So protoss are usually sent out in the most favourable conditions. But hey whining protoss players will never want to look at data that shows protoss winning. They just want the easyway out and blame losses on the game. | ||
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icarly
United States400 Posts
On October 14 2011 01:51 INFDexter wrote: Have any other zergs seen an increase in mech? In my very limited recent ladder experience the standard TvZ opening has been mass helion into mech. It is very much catching me off guard. mass hellion into mech loses straight up to any kind of early roach aggression and since so many zergs do that on ladder it won't be really popular. | ||
pPingu
Switzerland2892 Posts
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong747 Posts
On October 15 2011 00:11 pPingu wrote: Korean added Thanks! hmm, pretty much turned out the way I expected unfortunately  | ||
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SharkSpider
Canada606 Posts
On October 12 2011 21:28 Ganseng wrote: The number of games is absolutely insufficient. It's insufficient to the point that I'd call these stats irrelevant, by all due respect and appreciation of effort that the TL stuff puts in them. Statistically, the games are significant if they represent a fair sample of the level that the study is aimed at describing. My only complaint is that the data is dominated by less prestigious tournaments than say, MLGs and GSLs. That said, it's a pretty fair representation of which races are winning more at a high level, which is literally what the measure is. It's not concrete proof of any sort of game imbalance or anything. | ||
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Roxy
Canada753 Posts
On October 13 2011 15:33 insolentrus wrote: oh god blizzard bring back the KA.... im sure even with KA protoss not make more than 50% win rate now -_- IMO more protoss problems stem from the early game having said that terran drops have way too much reward for the risk all throughout the game KA would even that out (assuming you are not on cooldown when they drop) Interesting fact: your first HT with KA costs more than teching to and building a mothership | ||
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