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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
Statistically it's impossible to ignore that Protoss have been doing poorly in Korea for the last few months (unless you're just really that stubborn), but crying about it doesn't really help. Those who play Protoss say "Protoss is underpowered". Those who play Terran or Zerg say "Protoss players suck" or it's "Too little games have been played". It's really going nowhere. | ||
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MyNameIsAlex
Greece827 Posts
clearly there is some problem with what this statistics show us. the balance team still has a lot of work to do. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On October 15 2011 03:13 K3Nyy wrote: I think there's too much argument in this thread. Statistically it's impossible to ignore that Protoss have been doing poorly in Korea for the last few months (unless you're just really that stubborn), but crying about it doesn't really help. Those who play Protoss say "Protoss is underpowered". Those who play Terran or Zerg say "Protoss players suck" or it's "Too little games have been played". It's really going nowhere. Exactly. To be honest this is all that has been show. P are doing badly. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On October 15 2011 03:35 windsupernova wrote: Exactly. To be honest this is all that has been show. P are doing badly. To be honest all it shows me is that Terran has had about a 5% win advantage over both other races for an entire year with over 25,000 games factored in. Then a bunch of terrans trying to act like the numbers are inconclusive. If zerg or protoss had a 5% win lead over terran for just a month or two, terrans would be in an uproar, let alone the entire first year of the game. | ||
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Not_That
287 Posts
On October 15 2011 02:33 Trowa127 wrote: I didn't want to create a new thread for this quote, but thought it was pretty important to show. This is a blue post (developer post) on the WoW forums regarding some questionable clear percentages for their latest raid dungoen. This is what the dev - Bashiok - said about revealing numbers to the Starcraft 2 population. Bottom line is that no matter what numbers we show you, it's not going to make any situations 'better'. From time to time we show StarCraft II players literal win/loss %, as accurate as they can possibly be pulled from the source itself, and they're either ignored (because players simply don't want to believe their experiences are "wrong") or laughed at as being some underhanded plot to feed them misinformation. Amazing. Just, amazing. Source - http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/202894/135-of-all-wow-players-completed-normal-fl This is enraging. I just want to be clear, I have no complaint to Bashiok himself, because he's just saying what Blizzard thinks, and if anything I am thankful to him for his honesty. But the attitude from Blizzard is disgusting. No, things are not alright, despite what their ladder win/loss records tell them. If there is a problem at the highest levels of play (which I believe they admitted), then there is a problem with the game. If Master level and below players all have 50% win/loss record in their match ups, then it can only be attributed to the ladder system matching opponents in such a way to produce these results. They have stated that their system strives to produce 50% win/loss records for each match up, as well as for each player. I am glad that the ladder experience appears balanced to the participants, but there is a very serious problem here, and Blizzard needs to address it before there will be no Protoss left in the Korean Pro scene. Saying that the community is at disconnect with reality and just cry no matter what is gravely mistaken. I think it is Blizzard who are at a disconnect with reality. The fact that David Kim admitted to not follow GSL only emphasizes this. Sadly I think posting such things will only make the people responsible at Blizzard be less forthcoming with the community, instead of improving their pulse on the game. | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
On October 15 2011 03:01 windsupernova wrote: They Lump GMs and masters only no? And if it was GM only we would get to the same impasse that this statistics threads awlays get: "not enuff sample size" "ladder does not matter" And its not like GM don't get Matched up against High Master players. And why not take into account short games? Cheese and all ins form a part of the state of the game. And yeah "its not like people don't trust their numbers" look at the thread when they were released, a lot of people were saying that the numbers were fixed, that some conspiracy was going on blah blah blah. People will never be happy with the numbers unless they all reach exact 50%(impossible) or that they prove their own viewpoints. I mean not everybody is that way but look back at when P were OP(both T and Z complaining.. a LOT) the numbers for the P MUs were around 50% and yet people denied those numbers because they didn't comply with their own views. A small sample size is better than unrepresentative one. If I wanted to measure whether blacks were promoted as frequently as other races, I wouldn't lump together blacks and whites because not enough blacks were up for promotions. | ||
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harhar!
Germany190 Posts
it saddens me, that korean terran are so good. i on the ladder dont get shit from it and blizz will go ahead and buff toss even more. just look at sc2ranks, terran have low representation in the higher leagues and high representation in the lower leagues. also the lowest amount of points everywhere except gm. i dont udnerstand one thing thoug: in the last patch protoss got clearly away as the winner compared to z and t and still they manage to suck even more. whats wrong with that? | ||
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Sabu113
United States11075 Posts
On October 15 2011 06:23 Not_That wrote: This is enraging. I just want to be clear, I have no complaint to Bashiok himself, because he's just saying what Blizzard thinks, and if anything I am thankful to him for his honesty. But the attitude from Blizzard is disgusting. No, things are not alright, despite what their ladder win/loss records tell them. If there is a problem at the highest levels of play (which I believe they admitted), then there is a problem with the game. If Master level and below players all have 50% win/loss record in their match ups, then it can only be attributed to the ladder system matching opponents in such a way to produce these results. They have stated that their system strives to produce 50% win/loss records for each match up, as well as for each player. I am glad that the ladder experience appears balanced to the participants, but there is a very serious problem here, and Blizzard needs to address it before there will be no Protoss left in the Korean Pro scene. Saying that the community is at disconnect with reality and just cry no matter what is gravely mistaken. I think it is Blizzard who are at a disconnect with reality. The fact that David Kim admitted to not follow GSL only emphasizes this. Sadly I think posting such things will only make the people responsible at Blizzard be less forthcoming with the community, instead of improving their pulse on the game. Probably seeing the massive growth an assuming that the majority is fine with everything. The way to deal with this is to 1) turn off the stream when the tournament is boring/has matchups you don't like at all. If viewer counts stagnate/go down and gom starts to see fewer and fewer foreign dollars then more influential people are going to be yelling at David Kim to fix the game. 2) Don't buy HoTS immediately. We're probably all going to be interested in Hots as well it'll still be fun even if there's not a worthwhile esports scene. What we can do to hurt the initial numbers though will attract some attention when they design VoidProtosswinsnow. There are risks to this strategy and how it affects the quality of tournaments over the long run. On the flipside, this might be much too passive an easy and a more aggresive approach towards sponsors would be needed to get attention. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On October 16 2011 16:49 harhar! wrote: this graph is retarded. plz dont include it next time for it shows wrong information. or at least make it much more precise. it saddens me, that korean terran are so good. i on the ladder dont get shit from it and blizz will go ahead and buff toss even more. just look at sc2ranks, terran have low representation in the higher leagues and high representation in the lower leagues. also the lowest amount of points everywhere except gm. i dont udnerstand one thing thoug: in the last patch protoss got clearly away as the winner compared to z and t and still they manage to suck even more. whats wrong with that? Protoss is at it's weakest in the early game (overly relying on sentries to set up a safe expansion), and lategame (where ghosts and infestor/broodlord rule the day). Blizzard consistently buffs the protoss midgame (archons, immortals getting buffed, infestor nerf vs colossi, etc), thus forcing the race even more to rely on timing attacks to be in a winning position vs other races. Once those timing attacks get figured out (see zealot/archon in pvt), the race suffers even more because we end in an even worse state in the lategame whan before. | ||
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rareh
Portugal298 Posts
http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7 | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On October 16 2011 18:16 Teoita wrote: Protoss is at it's weakest in the early game (overly relying on sentries to set up a safe expansion), and lategame (where ghosts and infestor/broodlord rule the day). Blizzard consistently buffs the protoss midgame (archons, immortals getting buffed, infestor nerf vs colossi, etc), thus forcing the race even more to rely on timing attacks to be in a winning position vs other races. Once those timing attacks get figured out (see zealot/archon in pvt), the race suffers even more because we end in an even worse state in the lategame whan before. Please don't respond to him, he's just flamebaiting or else extremely ignorant. All of the points he made have been covered either in this thread or in the balance discussion one, so why bother replying? And yes, in PvX Protoss has traditionally either gone for a warpgate all-in or waited until maxed for the deathball. Warpgate all-ins have been figured out and the deathball has been nerfed (or found out to be not as good as people thought). Thus, Protoss is kind of at a loose end. The only hope in PvZ is the Hero/Sage/JYP harassment style, but I'm not convinced that it is the final solution. That chart includes all the leagues. To get a decent idea of balance at the highest level, you have to either look at the top end of Masters and GM or look at the GSL/other TLPD games. Seriously, ladder tells you shit about balance at a decent level, for a number of reasons that have been covered in other threads. | ||
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rareh
Portugal298 Posts
On October 16 2011 18:32 SeaSwift wrote: That chart includes all the leagues. To get a decent idea of balance at the highest level, you have to either look at the top end of Masters and GM or look at the GSL/other TLPD games. Seriously, ladder tells you shit about balance at a decent level, for a number of reasons that have been covered in other threads. It doesn't include ladder matches... it includes online and offline cups, like gsl, zotac etc | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On October 16 2011 18:44 rareh wrote: It doesn't include ladder matches... it includes online and offline cups, like gsl, zotac etc Fair enough - I withdraw my previous criticism. New criticism: From where in the world are all these games taken? Does it include GSL? Does it include only EU? I can't seem to find where it covers =/ | ||
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rareh
Portugal298 Posts
On October 16 2011 18:52 SeaSwift wrote: Fair enough - I withdraw my previous criticism. New criticism: From where in the world are all these games taken? Does it include GSL? Does it include only EU? I can't seem to find where it covers =/ It includes competitions all over the world. Don't know all of them, but for example the ones i know it does track. Korea: GSL, MLG global invitation korea, arena of legends, the fxo koth,gstl. Europe: Dreamhacks,assembly,fxopen,MLG global invitation eruope, go4sc2,zotac, gigabyte NA: MLG, NASL, ipl International: IEM, NASL open qualifiers(the one puma had to win to get to), eg masters cup I just think statistics are not the right way to go about stuff, maps do a lot to make certain races win on certain competitions(gsl for example).  | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On October 16 2011 19:12 rareh wrote: It includes competitions all over the world. Don't know all of them, but for example the ones i know it does track. Korea: GSL, MLG global invitation korea, arena of legends, the fxo koth,gstl. Europe: Dreamhacks,assembly,fxopen,MLG global invitation eruope, go4sc2,zotac, gigabyte NA: MLG, NASL, ipl International: IEM, NASL open qualifiers(the one puma had to win to get to), eg masters cup I just think statistics are not the right way to go about stuff, maps do a lot to make certain races win on certain competitions(gsl for example). I think you might be right, especially considering that on the same site we have this: http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb/ranking/players Which has only one Protoss in the top 15, and only 3 in the top 32! Still, I guess the sample size for the ranking is smaller, and I don't know how they work it out. | ||
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harhar!
Germany190 Posts
On October 16 2011 18:32 SeaSwift wrote: Please don't respond to him, he's just flamebaiting or else extremely ignorant. All of the points he made have been covered either in this thread or in the balance discussion one, so why bother replying? And yes, in PvX Protoss has traditionally either gone for a warpgate all-in or waited until maxed for the deathball. Warpgate all-ins have been figured out and the deathball has been nerfed (or found out to be not as good as people thought). Thus, Protoss is kind of at a loose end. The only hope in PvZ is the Hero/Sage/JYP harassment style, but I'm not convinced that it is the final solution. are you one of those guys, that read an entire topic before posting? havent met many of your sort. also whats wrong with my point about terran beeing weaker on ladder in the not-gm leagues. thats just a fact. teoitas answer seems somewhat legit, though i dont agree with toss being weak lategame. also it makes no sense, that the new strats which evolve from 1.4 have been already figured out. maybe the reason this time is, that the new strategies dont evolve quickly enough. It includes competitions all over the world.[...] i wonder why it differs so heavily from tlpd. probably all toss in the administration of tlpd! | ||
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rareh
Portugal298 Posts
On October 16 2011 19:19 SeaSwift wrote: I think you might be right, especially considering that on the same site we have this: http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb/ranking/players Which has only one Protoss in the top 15, and only 3 in the top 32! Still, I guess the sample size for the ranking is smaller, and I don't know how they work it out. I agree that protoss is definitely the weakest race atm, but if maps were bigger and always forced to cross positions then terrans biggest weakness(mobility) would be easier to exploit and added to that terrans couldn't 1-1-1 or use early aggression as easily, this would also help zerg. In fact its interesting that of all competitions after 1.4 IPL, IEM china, IEM NY, Code A were all won by zerg :D , code s already had so many terrans before so it would be natural, but still of all the games i watched on the playoffs terrans barely won to zerg and it always came to the last map. | ||
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
ninja edit: But it was only one month between a few months of T domination of course. A few months ago (may - jul) looked pretty ok. | ||
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rareh
Portugal298 Posts
On October 16 2011 19:41 dooraven wrote: Wait Terrans biggest weakness is mobility? In TvZ, probably due to seige tanks, but in TvP? I dunno how you can claim the bio ball is not very mobile. Terran don't have warp, recall, nydus worm or creep. Attention i am talking in big maps and cross position, in small maps terran is too overpowered, because the things i talked about don't have as much of a effect. | ||
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