EPTColor me less than impressed with inching out a win here. Thorzain is on top because he is pretty much the only foreigner to regularly go toe to toe with high level competitors including some actual "S Class" Koreans. His performance at Dreamhack Valencia was leaps and bounds above what Idra showed us at IEM. Sorry if that offends you, but it's the truth.
[Poll] Best Foreigner? - Page 62
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Cyrak
Canada536 Posts
Color me less than impressed with inching out a win here. Thorzain is on top because he is pretty much the only foreigner to regularly go toe to toe with high level competitors including some actual "S Class" Koreans. His performance at Dreamhack Valencia was leaps and bounds above what Idra showed us at IEM. Sorry if that offends you, but it's the truth. | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
i'd say 'ouch', except you're wrong. | ||
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forgottendreams
United States1771 Posts
On October 05 2011 03:34 Cyrak wrote: IEM China was a relatively backwater tournament with a less-than-impressive roster given the level of the tournaments that are going on each and every week (GSL, MLG, Dreamhack, etc.). Color me less than impressed with inching out a win here. Thorzain is on top because he is pretty much the only foreigner to regularly go toe to toe with high level competitors including some actual "S Class" Koreans. His performance at Dreamhack Valencia was leaps and bounds above what Idra showed us at IEM. Sorry if that offends you, but it's the truth. Since when were either hero or DRG code "S". I think putting either idra or thorzain as for sure the best foreigner is stupid. I'd still put mana or huk out anyday, anytime. | ||
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Asha
United Kingdom38257 Posts
On October 05 2011 03:40 forgottendreams wrote: Since when were either hero or DRG code "S". I think putting either idra or thorzain as for sure the best foreigner is stupid. I'd still put mana or huk out anyday, anytime. How is DRG not code S -_____- | ||
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forgottendreams
United States1771 Posts
You're right I forgot he earned his Code S spot through a MLG top3. Kind of lucky imo because he could've been lost in the Code A/B abyss that's hard to win out of. | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8307 Posts
On October 05 2011 03:40 forgottendreams wrote: Since when were either hero or DRG code "S". I think putting either idra or thorzain as for sure the best foreigner is stupid. I'd still put mana or huk out anyday, anytime. Or MC for that matter (well... at the time) | ||
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Asha
United Kingdom38257 Posts
On October 05 2011 03:44 forgottendreams wrote: You're right I forgot he earned his Code S spot through a MLG win. Kind of lucky imo because he could've been lost in the Code A/B abyss that's hard to win out of. This argument would be stronger if he hadn't 2-0'd his group to make it to r16 already as well | ||
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Cyrak
Canada536 Posts
On October 05 2011 03:40 forgottendreams wrote: Since when were either hero or DRG code "S". I think putting either idra or thorzain as for sure the best foreigner is stupid. I'd still put mana or huk out anyday, anytime. a) DRG is in Code S. b) I said "S Class", not Code S and there is a distinction. (S class is typically used to describe one of a handful of super-elite players. I'd argue that DRG is far above the majority of Code S, and this is particularly valid in this example since it was a TvZ where he may be the best in the world outright) There is an argument to be made for Huk for sure. On the basis of being in Code S as the only foreigner and as a Protoss no less. I don't disagree with this, I personally think Thorzain is better right now but that is after factoring in his race. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On October 05 2011 02:53 damod wrote: Hmm... When i read "consistency" i translated it as "having more tourny wins/dominating other tourny's", i would have really liked to write a huge wall of text providing my opinion in this matter, but i feel that it will become a really long and annoying argument, so ill just say it short: you can be called the best even though you havnt won a Single tourny, but winning high level tournaments is a solid proof for being the best (well atleast for most people, if it makes sense) No, consistency means you place high regularly and do not lose often to "worse" players. Limiting yourself to number of first places makes the measure of "being good" quite volatile and basically useless. EDIT: typo | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On October 05 2011 03:34 Cyrak wrote: IEM China was a relatively backwater tournament with a less-than-impressive roster given the level of the tournaments that are going on each and every week (GSL, MLG, Dreamhack, etc.). Color me less than impressed with inching out a win here. Thorzain is on top because he is pretty much the only foreigner to regularly go toe to toe with high level competitors including some actual "S Class" Koreans. His performance at Dreamhack Valencia was leaps and bounds above what Idra showed us at IEM. Sorry if that offends you, but it's the truth. You have no idea what your talking about. Thorzain beat Hero. Hero has an extremely gimmicky pvt, and genereally terran do really well vs toss. I considered thorzain the favourite pregame. Thorzain then got compltely outplayed by drg. Everytime the game got into mid game thorzain showed extreme lack of multitasking. IMO the series (despite the 2-2 result) was kinda embarrasing, as it showed all the leaks of thorzain which most code s terran dont have. Now your prob. going to say that he won 2 games,, but how? 1) He got an extremely big advantage in tal darim game which he almost threw away cus he was outplayed so bad, but still just won. He got the advantage becasue drg was not really droning correctly. 2) Antiga map is broken, at least in those positions. Not a lot you can do as zerg. Thorzain has great tvp becasue it dont requiers very good mechanics, only good battle micro. In tvt and esp. tvz his lack of is a much bigger problem. Idras performance was just better. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On October 05 2011 03:05 Trealador wrote: It's not just about winning, it's about how they win. Looking at IdrA's play versus Puma and Revival he is clearly in the top running for best foreigner. Although he isn't as consistent, players like Naniwa have been very hot and cold as well as Thorzain. As of now, IdrA is probably the best foreigner at this exact moment in time, although Thorzain and Naniwa are in Korea training or at least they were. IdrA has dipped since leaving Korea which is a real factor of skill. But he did just beat two very good Koreans in a major tournament as well as beating a decent few europeans. When IdrA is on his game, he would give any top Korean a run for his money, and when he's not he just loses for stupid reason. Overall at Thorzain's highest level and IdrA's highest level I really don't know anyone who would bet against IdrA. Idra beat 1 European at the tourney - elfi. And arguing about potentials is useless. Results are more important, and ThorZain recently took two games from DGR, game/series from Coca, series from HuK, series from Hero, any many more in GSTL. As far as Koreans (and non-Koreans) go ThorZain's recent record is much better. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
Morrow easily is, White-Ra is more up and down. | ||
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forgottendreams
United States1771 Posts
On October 05 2011 03:54 mcc wrote: Idra beat 1 European at the tourney - elfi. And arguing about potentials is useless. Results are more important, and ThorZain recently took two games from DGR, game/series from Coca, series from HuK, series from Hero, any many more in GSTL. As far as Koreans (and non-Koreans) go ThorZain's recent record is much better. Cuts both ways though, if results are important thorzain didn't win the tournament in the end. As far as the GSTL performances.... meh not a fan of bo1's. | ||
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Cyrak
Canada536 Posts
On October 05 2011 03:49 Hider wrote: You have no idea what your talking about. Thorzain beat Hero. Hero has an extremely gimmicky pvt, and genereally terran do really well vs toss. I considered thorzain the favourite pregame. Thorzain then got compltely outplayed by drg. Everytime the game got into mid game thorzain showed extreme lack of multitasking. IMO the series (despite the 2-2 result) was kinda embarrasing, as it showed all the leaks of thorzain which most code s terran dont have. Now your prob. going to say that he won 2 games,, but how? 1) He got an extremely big advantage in tal darim game which he almost threw away cus he was outplayed so bad, but still just won. He got the advantage becasue drg was not really droning correctly. 2) Antiga map is broken, at least in those positions. Not a lot you can do as zerg. Idras performance was just better. I can't help you if you are blinded by a complete inability to read games. The only opponent in the entire tournament that Idra faced who can even, with extreme dubiousness, be labeled "Code A" level was Puma. In that set Puma showed us a level of stagnant, passive and uninspired play that affirmed the fears of everyone who thought his play would decay once leaving TSL. Puma barely dropped in game 1 or 3 and allowed himself to be contained to 4 bases on the super-late Tal'darim game through his sheer refusal to build planetaries or turrets at his 3pm base. He then pissed away huge armies by walking them clumped into fungals or engaged directly into entrenched infestor/bl on creep. Puma played like a foreigner and to explain all the opportunities he missed or times he fucked up would take an essay. Suffice to say that anyone who plays the game or observes the game at a decently high level can easily tell the difference between these TvZ games and the games that happen even in the Code B qualifiers (which is far as Puma will probably ever go in GSL). Idra went through a roster of nobodies and Puma to take an easy win at an event without a whole lot of competition. Thorzain (at Valencia alone) went through Huk, Hero and took DRG to a 5th game which he almost won. When was the last time Idra took a series off of any of those players or someone on their level? | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On October 05 2011 03:58 forgottendreams wrote: Cuts both ways though, if results are important thorzain didn't win the tournament in the end. As far as the GSTL performances.... meh not a fan of bo1's. In recent months Thorzain has 1 win in big tournaments, Idra has 1. Thorzain has 1 second place Idra has none. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On October 05 2011 03:54 mcc wrote: Idra beat 1 European at the tourney - elfi. And arguing about potentials is useless. Results are more important, and ThorZain recently took two games from DGR, game/series from Coca, series from HuK, series from Hero, any many more in GSTL. As far as Koreans (and non-Koreans) go ThorZain's recent record is much better. If one doesn't understand the game, results is the best way of getting information. However if you do understand the game, you can see who are actually good would win in the long-term, because their wins aren't based on luck/gimmicks/other coincidences. Long-term in this context =/potential. Long-term should be understood as if the games were played an inifinity number of times. Who would have the best results? | ||
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forgottendreams
United States1771 Posts
On October 05 2011 04:02 mcc wrote: In recent months Thorzain has 1 win in big tournaments, Idra has 1. Thorzain has 1 second place Idra has none. Then there is only one way to resolve this, they must either fight or duel to the death. Not in game either, this must be resolved with a real life fight to the death between idra and thorzain. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On October 05 2011 04:01 Cyrak wrote: I can't help you if you are blinded by a complete inability to read games. The only opponent in the entire tournament that Idra faced who can even, with extreme dubiousness, be labeled "Code A" level was Puma. In that set Puma showed us a level of stagnant, passive and uninspired play that affirmed the fears of everyone who thought his play would decay once leaving TSL. Puma barely dropped in game 1 or 3 and allowed himself to be contained to 4 bases on the super-late Tal'darim game through his sheer refusal to build planetaries or turrets at his 3pm base. He then pissed away huge armies by walking them clumped into fungals or engaged directly into entrenched infestor/bl on creep. Puma played like a foreigner and to explain all the opportunities he missed or times he fucked up would take an essay. Suffice to say that anyone who plays the game or observes the game at a decently high level can easily tell the difference between these TvZ games and the games that happen even in the Code B qualifiers (which is far as Puma will probably ever go in GSL). Idra went through a roster of nobodies and Puma to take an easy win at an event without a whole lot of competition. Thorzain (at Valencia alone) went through Huk, Hero and took DRG to a 5th game which he almost won. When was the last time Idra took a series off of any of those players or someone on their level? Revival and puma are probably code a material. He just showed better mechanics than what thorzain has done. And as I said previously Thorzain has good tvp, because he has good battle macro, but mediocore overall mechanics. And he wont really get far with these mechanics in tvz/tvt. Now i am not saying idra is a fantastic player or the best foreigner but his performance was just more impressive.. Terrans beating protoss player is IMO almost the same as protoss player A beating protoss player B with a 4 gate. Btw puma played extremely well given his conditions on tal darim, and so did Idra. That game required so good mechanics from both players. No way thorzain would be able to show something similar as puma did that game vs idra. Btw-2 I dont really think you understand tvz at a very high level. Your not supposed to as terran to drop all the time, and always get planetaries. It really depends on alot of factors. He really never had any possibilty to drop in g3 for instant. | ||
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Silidons
United States2813 Posts
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On October 05 2011 04:02 Hider wrote: If one doesn't understand the game, results is the best way of getting information. However if you do understand the game, you can see who are actually good would win in the long-term, because their wins aren't based on luck/gimmicks/other coincidences. Long-term in this context =/potential. Long-term should be understood as if the games were played an inifinity number of times. Who would have the best results? Firstly, medium-long term results are the best way of determining quality of players. Your way based on "understanding" of the game is subjective and based purely on opinions as noone understands (and I think never will) the game on the level necessary to infer future results from the play of the players with any degree of certainty. The only objective way to determine quality of players is based on results. Second, are you saying that ThorZain achieved his wins through cheese/gimmicks ? That is like the most ridiculous statement ever. And even if I agreed with your assumptions my answer to your final question is ThorZain anyway. EDIT: Also a note on your reply to Cyrak, you seem to think the way you think the game should be played is the best or the only way. That explains why you discount results as a measure and instead use subjective and vague "understanding of the game". | ||
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