EPT[Poll] Best Foreigner? - Page 64
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stork4ever
United States1036 Posts
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On October 05 2011 10:05 Hider wrote: Well genereally if you want to do a solid tank/marine push you need to spotters (often combined with scans). This can however be very mehcnically demanding if you at the same time have to position your front to be safe against coutner attacks and muta harass. Kas is imo the best foreign terran player at doing solid tank/marine attacks. Ryung is a korean player who is really good at that. Both ryung and kas will often have 2-3 marine spotters to constanty have in front of their army. If you watch thorzain plays he some times iwll have bad siege timing as he isn't really using spotters properly. So he often will do a very very slow tank push where he doesn't need spotters ahead. Given his somewhat low apm this is a pretty intelligent play if he want to maximise his win percentage against subtop korean zerg players and foreigners, but really I dont think his style has long term potential. So he might be somewhat succesfull now, but that IMO doesn't make him the best foreigner. This is why I dont think wins = skills. A skilled player wins with long-term solid strategies that doesn't rely on the opponent not playing "correctly" against you. Thorzain style kinda has the reputation for being solid, but imo that is not totally true (solid is of course a relative term. Thorzain still has a relatively solid style, but i believe there are foreigners who have a even more solid style). I did not equate wins = skills as I do not think the thing you call "skills" = good player. I equated wins = good player. His style is not solid in your opinion, not in other people's opinion. It is solid as it brings results and it is also macro style so he is not one dimensional, so once his style stops being solid he won't have much trouble changing it. I think you have really strange notion about the game, like there is some ideal gameplay that everyone should strive for, nope, what brings wins at least in medium term and does not stifle your gameplay (reliance on cheese and all-ins) is solid and good. And just from the discussion we have you can see how measure of " being good player" that is not relying on results as main component is useless as we can just both say our opinions without any way for one to convince the other. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On October 05 2011 09:03 Supamang wrote: Who doesn't deserve to even be on that list? + Show Spoiler + Poll: Who doesn't deserve to even be on that list? IdrA (928) Kas (524) Stephano (162) SaSe (160) MaNa (99) Ret (74) ThorZaiN (69) SeleCt (54) Dimaga (34) HuK (32) Sen (24) NaNiWa (22) 2182 total votes Your vote: Who doesn't deserve to even be on that list? (Vote): Sen Wait how is Idra so high up on this list? I admit I dont follow about half of the players on the list so is he really that much worse than the rest? Well from the people on the list most actually even after considering his win on China can still be arguably considered better. I would put only Sase and Kas (both for lack of big tournament results) as less deserving than Idra. | ||
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xAPOCALYPSEx
1418 Posts
On October 05 2011 10:20 forgottendreams wrote: Relax, you do realize this poll was made right around the time idra was at an all time low losing in the first round of like 5 different tournaments. Idra's only recently turned back on the heat within the past 2 weeks or so. 2 weeks ago the poll hadn't been made yet  Call me crazy but I don't think HuK should be anywhere near the top; sure he's taken games off of good koreans but recently all hes beaten is SangHo and NaDa, neither of which have been very stunning (ok sangho beat polt but that was a single series). I understand why IdrA is so high on the 'shouldn't even be listed', but most of that is just because of how many people dislike idra. There are and have been players more undeserving than IdrA on that list, before he won IEM. And I hate to play the part of an IdrA fanboy (which believe me I'm not), but I don't see how people can discredit his wins when he beat players that have been performing miles better than the players HuK has been winning/losing to recently | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25239 Posts
God forbid that a player has a good sound sense of strategy in a 'real time strategy' game, instead of being a mechanical 300 APM machine. It's also worth actually watching a lot of the players in questions and their streams or VoDs regularly to see who's currently genuinely slumping, and who is just trying to work on new styles and builds and is ironing out the kinks. | ||
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zeOllie
Australia486 Posts
 . It's a pity... but oh well. i'm sure you'll get recognised soon SaSe =]and not to bag on Kas but his results haven't been the best lately... although he may be tearing up online cups etc etc they are usually online in europe. Also, his best high-class tournament result has been in TSL3 several months ago (granted his play was very impressive during that tournament). Stephano, although he is a wrecking ball, hasn't shown big results in tournaments. I'm sure he will soon though. | ||
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zeOllie
Australia486 Posts
On October 05 2011 11:39 xAPOCALYPSEx wrote: 2 weeks ago the poll hadn't been made yet Call me crazy but I don't think HuK should be anywhere near the top; sure he's taken games off of good koreans but recently all hes beaten is SangHo and NaDa, neither of which have been very stunning (ok sangho beat polt but that was a single series). I understand why IdrA is so high on the 'shouldn't even be listed', but most of that is just because of how many people dislike idra. There are and have been players more undeserving than IdrA on that list, before he won IEM. And I hate to play the part of an IdrA fanboy (which believe me I'm not), but I don't see how people can discredit his wins when he beat players that have been performing miles better than the players HuK has been winning/losing to recently Hmm. your HuK point is pretty out-there. I think the major reason people put him so high is that he is the only foreigner in Code S, and has been so in the last couple seasons, which is a massive feat in itself. He is also looking very sharp atm. You also have to remember, as artosis said, that HuK was basically living on an airplane for the last couple months, which is probably why his tournament results were below par. I agree with you on the IdrA point where people who dislike IdrA would pick him as least deserving. IdrA should always be a dominant foreigner, (although he should clean up his mentality) and his current form is superb. Sure, he may have been in a slump before but he's coming back better than ever. No matter what happens, I'm sure IdrA will always be a top foreigner, maybe even the best if he changes his attitude. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9377 Posts
On October 05 2011 11:20 mcc wrote: I did not equate wins = skills as I do not think the thing you call "skills" = good player. I equated wins = good player. His style is not solid in your opinion, not in other people's opinion. It is solid as it brings results and it is also macro style so he is not one dimensional, so once his style stops being solid he won't have much trouble changing it. I think you have really strange notion about the game, like there is some ideal gameplay that everyone should strive for, nope, what brings wins at least in medium term and does not stifle your gameplay (reliance on cheese and all-ins) is solid and good. And just from the discussion we have you can see how measure of " being good player" that is not relying on results as main component is useless as we can just both say our opinions without any way for one to convince the other. I think most people would agree that the ideal solid style = Doesn't rely on your opponent making mistakes. However to win with that style requires really really good mechanics which thorzain doesn't have. You dont have to strive for that style if you want easy short-term wins, but then your just not a very good player. Lets take one extreme situation of where this applies: "Player A 1 base allins every game, and is extremely good at 1 basing, but terrible at macro and multitasking and microing lots of units in big battles. However he is GM. If you can agree that Player A is overall not a good player, you will agree that results (short term, midtterm =/skills). Now that was just an extreme scenario, and thorzain of course isn't a gimmicky cheesy player. But everything is relative, and IMO his skills just doesn't match the number of votes he has received (though he definitely is a candidate). But even with your solutions to look at results, you have found no way to objectively convince other people who is the best player, as there is not formula for weighting results. So if you want to look at results the same problem arises. So the only way to convince other people is for you to try disvalidate my arguments about thorzains weakness. However the reason why this discussion probably never will take place is that it requires a high game understanding (at least high master+) and you have to have watched a shitton of games from thorzain and other top terran players. So I guess it is just much easier to look at at results from the last 2-3 touranemnts --> weight them subjectively --> convince other guy that player x is the best. But this just isn't the best way to do it as I have tried to argue. | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
In the end though, I would still go with Thorzain. But its not black and white at all. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9377 Posts
On October 05 2011 19:03 MCDayC wrote: The problem here is that in the last couple of days, Idra has gone from slumping badly (like loosing easy clan war matches) to toasting Koreans like it was easy. Its so hard to judge his play level, in fact, even during group stages he looked not great. Then suddenly, he turns on the fire and kicks but. What do you judge his skill on? Overall results in the last month? Pretty average. In the last week? Very good. In the last 4 days? Fucking amazing. In the end though, I would still go with Thorzain. But its not black and white at all. You raise some of the main problems with the method of basing skills on results. Its really close to an impossible task. Even if some people throgh the use of thousands of historical games came up with a formula (a more advanced ELO formula probably) that could calculate peoples skill level in the most accurate way based on results, it still wouldn't be enough to explain everythin. However if you actually analyze the games of idras over the past month or 2 you will be able to see: 1) If he is winning because he is playing better. 2) If he is winning cus of luck/opp playinb ad 3) How his play has changed. - You can then try to estimate whether his potential new imrpvoements are sustainable, and then you would be able to somewhat figure out if he actually is a better player or if its just variance. Looking only at results you wont be able to do that. But again, this requires a lot of work and a high level of game understanding. | ||
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Chezus
Netherlands427 Posts
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StarVe
Germany13591 Posts
On October 05 2011 12:46 zeOllie wrote: and not to bag on Kas but his results haven't been the best lately... although he may be tearing up online cups etc etc they are usually online in europe. Also, his best high-class tournament result has been in TSL3 several months ago (granted his play was very impressive during that tournament). Kas won WCG Ukraine against Strelok, Dimaga, White-Ra and the likes. In a LAN environment. | ||
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damod
1106 Posts
(yeah i know, one series does not mean alot, blah blah blah etc etc) idrA is becoming sick good lately, maybe he is not yet #1, but he absolutely deserves a good spot at that list of sick players. | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
On October 05 2011 12:46 zeOllie wrote: It makes me quite sad that SaSe is second last. He is currently tearing UP the kr gm ladder, and nobody seems to watch his stream where he does that . It's a pity... but oh well. i'm sure you'll get recognised soon SaSe =]and not to bag on Kas but his results haven't been the best lately... although he may be tearing up online cups etc etc they are usually online in europe. Also, his best high-class tournament result has been in TSL3 several months ago (granted his play was very impressive during that tournament). Stephano, although he is a wrecking ball, hasn't shown big results in tournaments. I'm sure he will soon though. Well like you said it's the ladder. I wouldn't argue that he deserved to be ahead of Kas, but the thing about SaSe is he has no real results against Koreans where it matters. | ||
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OhMyGawd
United States264 Posts
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grobo
Japan6199 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Stephano is currently the best foreigner! | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On October 10 2011 00:11 grobo wrote: According to this thread the best foreigner is the guy that most recently got a tournament win. + Show Spoiler + Stephano is currently the best foreigner! Nah, it's the foreigner that most recently won a televised game. | ||
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JayConn
United States408 Posts
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grobo
Japan6199 Posts
On October 10 2011 00:12 Daralii wrote: Nah, it's the foreigner that most recently won a televised game. Indeed, my bad! | ||
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TheUnderking
Canada202 Posts
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