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On September 20 2011 05:49 FaRess wrote:
Live report : Llewellys said that coL statement about stephano "contract" being one of the biggest in term of money, is completely wrong, it's not even remotely close to what a guy like HuK has signed
Why is mill live streaming right now and shit-talking coL instead of trying to talk to them and work this drama out in private. It reflects bad on all parties involved 
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Children signing contracts... ridiculous. SC2 will never gain a professional appeal with idiots backing out of contracts left and right.
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On September 20 2011 05:52 Bellygareth wrote:
To make things clear for everyone: even if Stephano had signed a real contract binding under french law, he would still be able to break it fairly easily considering:
- it's customary to have a "trial period" in contracts
- the contract signed by stephano would probably have been a "short term contract" or duration limited contract
- Stephano had not even started to work for Col yet.
Even outside the trial period, the employee can break a "short term contract" or duration limited contract, if he can argue that he has a long term duration contract available (CDI). In that case he can be forced to work a minimum duration for the previous employer (for a maximum of 2 weeks and the actual time would be lower because he didn't work for Col at all).
So Stephano was free to change it under french law in my opinion.
Disclaimer: it's not a lawyer opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but I know how it works. Under french law, Col won't have any chance I would bet.
I'll take the risk of quoting myself:
On September 20 2011 05:48 Cromus wrote:Jason Lake posted as a response to the Official Complexity announcement on their site: Show nested quote +Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet. In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough. This might enlighten people who know law out there regarding the nature of the contract since that seems to be disputed.
The contract that was signed is apparently not a normal "employement" contract. Usual French law may not apply.
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"Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.
In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely
http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/
Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough."
-Jason Lake
Regardless if what coL says about Stephano is true, then it's ridiculous how much this is blowing up cause of one selfish player 
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On September 20 2011 05:53 Sandro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:52 Bellygareth wrote:
To make things clear for everyone: even if Stephano had signed a real contract binding under french law, he would still be able to break it fairly easily considering:
- it's customary to have a "trial period" in contracts
- the contract signed by stephano would probably have been a "short term contract" or duration limited contract
- Stephano had not even started to work for Col yet.
Even outside the trial period, the employee can break a "short term contract" or duration limited contract, if he can argue that he has a long term duration contract available (CDI). In that case he can be forced to work a minimum duration for the previous employer (for a maximum of 2 weeks and the actual time would be lower because he didn't work for Col at all).
So Stephano was free to change it under french law in my opinion.
Disclaimer: it's not a lawyer opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but I know how it works. Under french law, Col won't have any chance I would bet.
So we shouldn't ever bother signing French players onto teams and just let France stew in its own undeveloped scene? Sounds good to me.
Strawman argument
Edit : about the fact that it was another type of contract. It was a contract requiring him to work I believe. Then in what way wouldn't it be an employement contract?
Besides the golden rule in France is usually : if you can value the fact that you have a CDI somewhere, it takes precedence over other employment contracts.
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I don't think this thread is gonna get as many replies as the Puma one did, y'all can stop trying
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Regardless of whether coL has a case against Millenium, Stephano has lost my support as a player.
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On September 20 2011 05:38 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:35 Chill wrote:On September 20 2011 05:34 ZestyPickle wrote:On September 20 2011 05:33 Seronei wrote:On September 20 2011 05:32 f0rzaa wrote:
the french have laws to protect and allow them to pull this shit? LOL The US allows people to sign illegal contracts and have them be legal? LOL Because you know his contract was illegal? col have said it wasn't a real contract a few pages back. youre right, that is huge. i wonder what informal piece of paper they made him sign. Maybe they wanted to contract him in person, regardless, this means that the thread started by col yesterday regarding them signing stephano was premature.
And so all the people who attacked us for supporting Stephano realise their mistakes now ...
You're right that means CoL.s announcement on TeamLiquid Yesterday Was pre-mature... Especially if we learned the Contract was not 'Legal' in any way.
If its not a legally binding contract. As i said earlier in the Thread CoL.(Complexity) Should not (or cannot) take legal action because it would cause a Shit Storm.
Just leave Mill(Millenium) alone let them keep Stephano and leave the Situation alone.
Seems to me CoL. was/is trying to exacerbate the situation. Whats funny though is if their Contract wasn't even Legal at all ( which is what is now being said) . Then they have no say in the matter.
CoL screwed up Just like their attempted aquiring of vVvTitan. Like i said Earlier... Sneaky Snake..
The Mods on Stephano Stream were saying the Contract wasn't Legal few hours ago.
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On September 20 2011 05:52 Bellygareth wrote:
To make things clear for everyone: even if Stephano had signed a real contract binding under french law, he would still be able to break it fairly easily considering:
- it's customary to have a "trial period" in contracts
- the contract signed by stephano would probably have been a "short term contract" or duration limited contract
- Stephano had not even started to work for Col yet.
Even outside the trial period, the employee can break a "short term contract" or duration limited contract, if he can argue that he has a long term duration contract available (CDI). In that case he can be forced to work a minimum duration for the previous employer (for a maximum of 2 weeks and the actual time would be lower because he didn't work for Col at all).
So Stephano was free to change it under french law in my opinion.
Disclaimer: it's not a lawyer opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but I know how it works. Under french law, Col won't have any chance I would bet.
Apparently there are differences between contractor and employees.. Stephano signed a contract as the former... if you sign a contract with someone to redo your kitchen, you can definitely sue his ass if he backs down on it after signing it.. here, in china or Paris you should be able to..
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As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them.
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On September 20 2011 05:51 ArnaudF wrote:
Come on coL you tried to screw Millenium and got screwed back and any law pursuit in France will fail. Get over it and stop saying that this isn't over or that the whole esport scene will be behind you and it'll be felt world-wide.
Deal with it.
As it looks now, coL where very straight forward the whole time. So I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about when you say coL tried to screw over Millenium.
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On September 20 2011 05:52 Bellygareth wrote:
To make things clear for everyone: even if Stephano had signed a real contract binding under french law, he would still be able to break it fairly easily considering:
- it's customary to have a "trial period" in contracts
- the contract signed by stephano would probably have been a "short term contract" or duration limited contract
- Stephano had not even started to work for Col yet.
Even outside the trial period, the employee can break a "short term contract" or duration limited contract, if he can argue that he has a long term duration contract available (CDI). In that case he can be forced to work a minimum duration for the previous employer (for a maximum of 2 weeks and the actual time would be lower because he didn't work for Col at all).
So Stephano was free to change it under french law in my opinion.
Disclaimer: it's not a lawyer opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but I know how it works. Under french law, Col won't have any chance I would bet.
You're just wrong about the trial period, it's clearly not mandatory in a contract
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Thats just ridiculus, they should go after him definatly!!
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The post by millennium is unprofessional and arrogant beyond belief. Not only cheapening the concept of contracts in esports, but insinuating that stephano made a "mistake"; the only mistake a player could make in such a situation is to make the choice that is worse for his career- not yours or anybody else. It's to the point that I wish they wouldn't say they are representing France, but that they are a team that happens to reside in France.
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On September 20 2011 05:47 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:46 ride wrote:
The Mill manager said that he couldn't answer to Col right now because he is streaming a showmatch between Lucifron and Hasuobs and cancelling the showmatch wouldn't be fair for these both platers who are not involved in this story.
For the "false contract" it means that in France a contract is very regulated. But Col's contract wasn't ok with some laws. So stephano couldn't "work" with this contract since it is not a legal one. doesn't mean it's a "false contract". unless this manager doesn't know what "false" actually means.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267130¤tpage=50#1000
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267130¤tpage=54#1073
So according to the translations of the Millenium stream provided by random posters in this thread (DISCLAIMER, prossibly dubious at best considering low post count).
So the manager of Mil says coL contacted them by email, but can't spare the time to respond because he's busy casting a showmatch (I'd say ironing things out with coL is a bit more important than the showmatch), then says it's probably not worth responding to them anyway?
Still finding it difficult to sympathize with Mil here so far.
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On September 20 2011 05:53 FaRess wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:51 forgottendreams wrote:On September 20 2011 05:49 FaRess wrote:
Live report : Llewellys said that coL statement about stephano "contract" being one of the biggest in term of money, is completely wrong, it's not even remotely close to what a guy like HuK has signed People always say huk made big money which I'm sure he did but no one ever says a specific amount, how can we even compare about vague terms thrown around? Does anyone even have specific numbers? HuK was millenium and from what I understand Llewellys talks with him from time to time, I'm trying to explain why what he is saying could be true, I'm not saying it's relevant
Ah makes sense that huk still talks to the Millenium guys once in awhile. I guess I'm more angered about the fact if esports really does want to be thought to be more a of a legimate sport, people should disclose salary numbers like any other major sport.
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Stephano is just a child so maybe I should withhold my judgment, but I have lost a lot of respect for him after this incident. I do not know French contractual laws but when you give your word which signing a contract is, you are obligated to stand by it. Shame on Stephano and Mill
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On September 20 2011 05:49 Eduro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:17 coljbass wrote:
At the end of the day I am not a lawyer but my partner Jason Lake is. Lot's of people can always say that a contract is "badly" written or it has "no value" but what I can say is that our contract very clearly spells out what we will provide and what is expected from the player. So maybe the focus should be on if someone understands the offer and accepts the offer and then signs the contract, that is probably a tad bit more important than if some clause that is necessary for a French contract is missing.
The intention of a contract is for an offer and acceptance as well as all that is required of both parties and I can safely say that our contract spells all of that out very clearly. There is no doubt that he was getting what he asked for and he should have had no doubt what he was asked for in return. I spoke to him for weeks and answered all questions. So sure we could all spend our lives focusing on something that is not worded correctly or something that is "missing" because I can assure you there is probably not a "perfect" contract out there. The more important issue is did he know what he was being asked to do and did he know what he was receiving in return and did he subsequently sign the contract and agree to the terms as they were? And the answer in this case is absolutely. If Jason Lake was a lawyer then he would understand that things MUST be worded correctly and clauses CANNOT be missing. You are dealing with international law and employment law and to not have a contract written or reviewed by a professional who deals with these matters is irresponsible. This contract is key and from the sounds of it the Col case is about as paper thin as that contract must have been.
Or the realization that if someone doesn't want to play for you, he won't play for you even if he's under contract. In the end, as much as legality matters, an employment contract (in e-sports especially) only has real relevance as long as both parties actually want to be part of the deal.
The contract would never ever have been an issue had Stephano not changed his mind. coL would have paid him, flown him around, you name it and both parties would have fulfilled their side of the deal. The fact that the contract was poorly written/not up to french 'standards' only allows Stephano to take an 'easy way' out, but it is still the wrong way.
You don't commit to an organisation (by signing a contract however legaly weak it might be) and then reneg on your promise, which is what he did. It makes legal action by coL less viable, that's for sure, but that doesn't put coL in the wrong or anything. Most employment contracts have loopholes you can abuse if you really want out, and if they don't you can just not do anything until you get fired. As I said before, there is no need for ironclad contracts when a player has it in his mind to fuck you over. I think other professional (team) sports have proven that.
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On September 20 2011 05:52 Mijati wrote:
Complexity should have gone out of their way to make sure the contract is air tight and complied with French Law. They've had the contract for 18 days as they've said (although I'm sure there's been numerous revisions over that time), they've had plenty of time to check and make sure everything is legal, the fact that they didn't do this and the whole situation was able to come about seems to lie with them.
That being said Stephano and Mil went about this the whole wrong way, the fact they're ignoring emails to respond to complexity is outrageous and that by the sounds of it have persuaded Stephano to sign a contract with them when he wanted to go elsewhere without giving Complexity the chance to "fix" the contract.
I was delighted when I saw the announcement this morning as Stephano is a great player and getting to see him at things like MLG would have been great, it's just a shame that despite the contract being great for Stephano the whole deal has been messed up due to a few legal loop holes. Complexity really should have made sure of everything prior to this to prevent this from happened, but this whole thing has just been horrific from Stephano and Mil and they should take the blame for the drama, not complexity.
Somehow that's my biggest problem here. Stephano and coL had an agreement about the general terms of the contract. The contract itself may have been not "air tight", but that's fixable. Then Millenium comes in and goes "Hey your contract's kinda off, why don't you sign one with us". At least that's what I got out of this thread until now.
Feels kinda wrong...
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On September 20 2011 05:55 bonifaceviii wrote:
I don't think this thread is gonna get as many replies as the Puma one did, y'all can stop trying
Go away, Kanye.
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EPT
