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On September 20 2011 05:56 ImHuko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:53 Sqq wrote:On September 20 2011 05:52 Bellygareth wrote:
To make things clear for everyone: even if Stephano had signed a real contract binding under french law, he would still be able to break it fairly easily considering:
- it's customary to have a "trial period" in contracts
- the contract signed by stephano would probably have been a "short term contract" or duration limited contract
- Stephano had not even started to work for Col yet.
Even outside the trial period, the employee can break a "short term contract" or duration limited contract, if he can argue that he has a long term duration contract available (CDI). In that case he can be forced to work a minimum duration for the previous employer (for a maximum of 2 weeks and the actual time would be lower because he didn't work for Col at all).
So Stephano was free to change it under french law in my opinion.
Disclaimer: it's not a lawyer opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but I know how it works. Under french law, Col won't have any chance I would bet.
Thats the bits I've collected about the laws there aswell. It still a douche move by Stephano. And it makes the whole sc2 pro scene look like a big laugh. Stephano is 17, he used to start every game by saying "PINK POWER RANGER GOGO!" or something like that. Calling him a douche because he is just a kid and doesn't understand the importance of everything yet is a bit rude. Stephano just plays the game, apparently he doesn't read any sites like TL or anything, he just enjoys the game. Everything all of a sudden has probably gotten way too involved for him, he just wants to play the game.
Then he should be sitting in his room at his parent's house playing for fun and not for money on a progaming team where gaming meets real life.
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United States11933 Posts
I'm not going to pretend to be very knowledgeable but I can't imagine Mill being able to offer close to what coL can.
It sounds like Mill guilt tripping Steph to say.. 'we build you up, you're here because we stuck with you, don't leave us, wah!'
In Stephano's interest, I hope he goes to coL and gets the huge payday.
Everything I said could be full of shit but Mill grasping at straws citing page views (wut) as a medium to cite they have as much clout as any other team is a bit silly.
I'd bet next week's paycheck coL was offering WAY more money + incentives then Mill can match.
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On September 20 2011 05:56 SinTio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:52 Mijati wrote:
Complexity should have gone out of their way to make sure the contract is air tight and complied with French Law. They've had the contract for 18 days as they've said (although I'm sure there's been numerous revisions over that time), they've had plenty of time to check and make sure everything is legal, the fact that they didn't do this and the whole situation was able to come about seems to lie with them.
That being said Stephano and Mil went about this the whole wrong way, the fact they're ignoring emails to respond to complexity is outrageous and that by the sounds of it have persuaded Stephano to sign a contract with them when he wanted to go elsewhere without giving Complexity the chance to "fix" the contract.
I was delighted when I saw the announcement this morning as Stephano is a great player and getting to see him at things like MLG would have been great, it's just a shame that despite the contract being great for Stephano the whole deal has been messed up due to a few legal loop holes. Complexity really should have made sure of everything prior to this to prevent this from happened, but this whole thing has just been horrific from Stephano and Mil and they should take the blame for the drama, not complexity. Somehow that's my biggest problem here. Stephano and coL had an agreement about the general terms of the contract. The contract itself may have been not "air tight", but that's fixable. Then Millenium comes in and goes "Hey your contract's kinda off, why don't you sign one with us". At least that's what I got out of this thread until now. Feels kinda wrong...
Yup, I agree with that, if anyone has been disorienting the player here it seems to be Mil. Although Complexity really should have made sure the contract had all terms required if what Mil are seeing about it having loop holes is indeed correct. We'll just have to wait and see. Just a huge shame to see this happening, both for esports in general and for Stephano.
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On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them.
I think complexity cares more about the principle than the money.
And they have sued people before who have backed out of contracts.
http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/
edit:On September 20 2011 05:57 Baerinho wrote:
I´d love to hear @UltraDavid ´s opinion, big Commentator and person in the Fighting Game scene, he´s a lawyer, has his own e-sport and Gaming Law Firm.
utlradavid is an alarmist who always tries to get hits on his site by blowing things way out of proportion such as the proposed streaming law in the united states which capcom later came out and said isn't a big deal at all even if it did pass.
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Well regardless of what happens I for sure will no longer support Mil or any of their players, including steph (if he stays)
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On September 20 2011 05:43 striderxxx wrote:
If Stephano only made a verbal agreement, this is NON BINDING. It's similar to what NBA's Carlos Boozer did with the Cavs before bolting to for a bigger contract with Utah years ago.
Uh what ?
Its pretty clear that Stephano signed a written contract, and even if this wasnt true, its a pretty known fact in the legal world that verbal agreements ARE BINDING, unless exceptions within the law. The reason people never do verbal agreements is because its harder to prove something that was made verbally then just show a piece of paper.
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On September 20 2011 05:56 ImHuko wrote:
Stephano is 17, he used to start every game by saying "PINK POWER RANGER GOGO!" or something like that. Calling him a douche because he is just a kid and doesn't understand the importance of everything yet is a bit rude. Stephano just plays the game, apparently he doesn't read any sites like TL or anything, he just enjoys the game. Everything all of a sudden has probably gotten way too involved for him, he just wants to play the game.
Bad excuse.
I can understand someone not honoring their obligations if they're 7 years old, not if they're 17. Basically, you do not really not lots of life experience to realize that if you've told somebody that you are agreeing to their terms and then sign a paper that explicitly states it, you're supposed to honor it. From an ethical point of view, Stephano is definitely to blame. From a legal point of view - I seriously doubt anyone on TL.net has the slightest clue how this could go, there doesn't even seem to be any agreement on what laws apply here, much less how to interpret them.
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On September 20 2011 05:58 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them. It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it.
Plus seeing as Jason Lake was a lawyer himself, that could take care of some of the costs.
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a statement from someone at complexity in the comments underneath the article.
Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.
In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely
http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/
Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough.
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On September 20 2011 05:55 forgottendreams wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:53 FaRess wrote:On September 20 2011 05:51 forgottendreams wrote:On September 20 2011 05:49 FaRess wrote:
Live report : Llewellys said that coL statement about stephano "contract" being one of the biggest in term of money, is completely wrong, it's not even remotely close to what a guy like HuK has signed People always say huk made big money which I'm sure he did but no one ever says a specific amount, how can we even compare about vague terms thrown around? Does anyone even have specific numbers? HuK was millenium and from what I understand Llewellys talks with him from time to time, I'm trying to explain why what he is saying could be true, I'm not saying it's relevant Ah makes sense that huk still talks to the Millenium guys once in awhile. I guess I'm more angered about the fact if esports really does want to be thought to be more a of a legimate sport, people should disclose salary numbers like any other major sport.
Won't get into exact numbers, but as far as I know the salary for top players in EU is not very high at all... could make a lot more money just by being a grad student in the US, and they are notoriously underpaid. Which is probably why the numbers aren't publicized.
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On September 20 2011 05:58 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them. It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it.
What you are not understanding merz is, that if you want to be serious about acontract, make a valid one in the first place, I would completely agree with you if the contrac that coL did was well written, if it was the case they could sue Millenium, and do whatever they want to do, but don't talk about importance of contract if the contract is ridiculous in the first place
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On September 20 2011 05:57 RajaF wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:53 Sqq wrote:On September 20 2011 05:52 Bellygareth wrote:
To make things clear for everyone: even if Stephano had signed a real contract binding under french law, he would still be able to break it fairly easily considering:
- it's customary to have a "trial period" in contracts
- the contract signed by stephano would probably have been a "short term contract" or duration limited contract
- Stephano had not even started to work for Col yet.
Even outside the trial period, the employee can break a "short term contract" or duration limited contract, if he can argue that he has a long term duration contract available (CDI). In that case he can be forced to work a minimum duration for the previous employer (for a maximum of 2 weeks and the actual time would be lower because he didn't work for Col at all).
So Stephano was free to change it under french law in my opinion.
Disclaimer: it's not a lawyer opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but I know how it works. Under french law, Col won't have any chance I would bet.
Thats the bits I've collected about the laws there aswell. It still a douche move by Stephano. And it makes the whole sc2 pro scene look like a big laugh. Actually it makes the SC2 scene start to look like a real sport, since crap like this goes on at the highest levels of professional sport entertainment, unfortunately.
Actually, crap like this rarely goes on in professional sports because contracts are actually taken seriously and leagues will punish players/teams for violating them.
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On September 20 2011 05:55 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:38 Angelbelow wrote:On September 20 2011 05:35 Chill wrote:On September 20 2011 05:34 ZestyPickle wrote:On September 20 2011 05:33 Seronei wrote:On September 20 2011 05:32 f0rzaa wrote:
the french have laws to protect and allow them to pull this shit? LOL The US allows people to sign illegal contracts and have them be legal? LOL Because you know his contract was illegal? col have said it wasn't a real contract a few pages back. youre right, that is huge. i wonder what informal piece of paper they made him sign. Maybe they wanted to contract him in person, regardless, this means that the thread started by col yesterday regarding them signing stephano was premature. And so all the people who attacked us for supporting Stephano realise their mistakes now ...  You're right that means CoL.s announcement on TeamLiquid Yesterday Was pre-mature... Especially if we learned the Contract was not 'Legal' in any way. If its not a legally binding contract. As i said earlier in the Thread CoL.(Complexity) Should not (or cannot) take legal action because it would cause a Shit Storm. Just leave Mill(Millenium) alone let them keep Stephano and leave the Situation alone. Seems to me CoL. was/is trying to exacerbate the situation. Whats funny though is if their Contract wasn't even Legal at all ( which is what is now being said) . Then they have no say in the matter. CoL screwed up Just like their attempted aquiring of vVvTitan. Like i said Earlier... Sneaky Snake.. The Mods on Stephano Stream were saying the Contract wasn't Legal few hours ago.
Youre just plain wrong, coL couldve written the contract on a napkin and if Stephano signed it it would still be binding.
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On September 20 2011 06:01 FaRess wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:58 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them. It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it. What you are not understanding merz is, that if you want to be serious about acontract, make a valid one in the first place, I would completely agree with you if the contrac that coL did was well written, if it was the case they could sue Millenium, and do whatever they want to do, but don't talk about importance of contract if the contract is ridiculous in the first place
Considering Mr. Lake is a lawyer I would imagine he would take the time to make a legitimate contract.
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I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion.
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On September 20 2011 06:01 cheesemaster wrote:a statement from someone at complexity in the comments underneath the article. Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet. In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/ Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough.
Ah so he wasn't working for them he was supposed to offer them a service. This should stir things up.
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On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote:
I think Stephano is better in France than in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion.
Your from france of course youd think that. Pretty much everyone in this thread who is from france is on stephano milleniums side, so im not surprised at all that you would think that.
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On September 20 2011 06:01 FaRess wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 05:58 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them. It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it. What you are not understanding merz is, that if you want to be serious about acontract, make a valid one in the first place, I would completely agree with you if the contrac that coL did was well written, if it was the case they could sue Millenium, and do whatever they want to do, but don't talk about importance of contract if the contract is ridiculous in the first place
I'm under the assumption that coL who has been around since 2003 is perfectly capable of designing contracts that holds true legally in the US. Don't take me for a fool please, and don't take coL for fools either because they actually have a legitimate lawyer working for them.
What you are not understanding Faress, is that just because Millenium points fingers saying the contract is not valid, doesn't really say jack shit as long as it's valid in the US.
i.e the contract can technically both be "illegal" and "legal" depending on where in the world you are looking at it.
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coL needs to gtfo
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote:
I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion.
Why ? He could play with better players, he could play in bigger tournaments. Millenium is keeping him from big things I think.
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EPT
