Lack of content, flaming (of the French or anyone) and useless posts will be punished. Please keep it from being too inflammatory and keep discussion on-topic. -semioldguy (p.103)
On September 20 2011 05:52 Mijati wrote: Complexity should have gone out of their way to make sure the contract is air tight and complied with French Law. They've had the contract for 18 days as they've said (although I'm sure there's been numerous revisions over that time), they've had plenty of time to check and make sure everything is legal, the fact that they didn't do this and the whole situation was able to come about seems to lie with them.
That being said Stephano and Mil went about this the whole wrong way, the fact they're ignoring emails to respond to complexity is outrageous and that by the sounds of it have persuaded Stephano to sign a contract with them when he wanted to go elsewhere without giving Complexity the chance to "fix" the contract.
I was delighted when I saw the announcement this morning as Stephano is a great player and getting to see him at things like MLG would have been great, it's just a shame that despite the contract being great for Stephano the whole deal has been messed up due to a few legal loop holes. Complexity really should have made sure of everything prior to this to prevent this from happened, but this whole thing has just been horrific from Stephano and Mil and they should take the blame for the drama, not complexity.
Somehow that's my biggest problem here. Stephano and coL had an agreement about the general terms of the contract. The contract itself may have been not "air tight", but that's fixable. Then Millenium comes in and goes "Hey your contract's kinda off, why don't you sign one with us". At least that's what I got out of this thread until now.
Feels kinda wrong...
You just hit the bullseye.
Indeed. Even if a contract is technically legally void in france, it's still a promise which should mean something. If not, it will seriously damage ESPORTS as a whole. I mean, they've been negotiation half a month with offers and counter-offers from coL and Mill. CoL won the bidding war and a promise was made. I can't see this another way than that mill went behind coLs back through some law wrangling. And now, they are live streaming and basically thrash talking coL, instead of replying to coLs emails and try to solve this matter privately.
I really hope stephano sides with coL on this one, I really want to like that guy.
On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote: I think Stephano is better in France than in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion.
Your from france of course youd think that. Pretty much everyone in this thread who is from france is on stephano milleniums side, so im not surprised at all that you would think that.
Before you start a USA vs France flame-war here, take a look through the last 20 or so pages, there's been plenty of French posters supporting us here at compLexity, just wanted to throw that in before any flamebait is started.
On September 20 2011 06:07 lim1017 wrote: I don't understand how there can be confusion as to weither or not something was signed... Seems idiot proof to me tbh.
Also isn't stephano studying in medical school or something, guy is apparently super smart, I'm sure he would know if he signed
Ya cause all doctors go to law school as well, the argument isnt whether he signed, but the legality of the contract
On September 20 2011 06:01 cheesemaster wrote: a statement from someone at complexity in the comments underneath the article.
Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.
In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely
Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough.
Ah so he wasn't working for them he was supposed to offer them a service. This should stir things up.
Yea i beleive that the french law that is supposedly on milleniums side only applies to employment contracts.
Also i was listening to the manager of Mill on his stream and the guy says that their were tons of mistakes in the contract but then admits his english is terrible, even if say the contract was translated into french for stephano / Millenium their is still the original english contract to go back on id assume.
Someone earlier was saying that if jurisdiction was under Texas Usa then millenium would be screwed and it sounds like it is, so they are probably screwed and just dont realise it yet.
On September 20 2011 06:07 kigabit wrote: I'd like to get Millenium/Stephano's side of this, but someone posted that Millenium's manager doesn't think it's worth it to respond?
Yeah, the whole community is against them and they don't think it's important to defend their image. It smells fishy.
I would really like this one to be set as an example. Players need to treat this shit seriously.
Was Stephano ever BM at any point? Some people here are saying he was, and that he was cocky at HSC3, and BM to grubby. Any links to a thread/any information on that?
On September 20 2011 06:01 cheesemaster wrote: a statement from someone at complexity in the comments underneath the article.
Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.
In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely
Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough.
I'm pretty sure the problem is that it is arguably an employement contract for all intents and purposes. Service contracts or contractor contracts are linked to identifiable deliverables with the means to do it. Competing and playing SC2 is more an engagement of time and human power than deliverables.
So I'm pretty sure in France at least it would still be viewed as an employment contract, disguised
The biased Frenchman is going to argue with a lawyer. Lol.
I'm not biased. I don't care about Millenium which is a dead team for me. So don't go throwing this kind of arguments. I'm just explaining how things work in France for people not leaving there. And me being in a position where I have to review those sort of things daily. Without being a lawyer myself I do employ people and I have to know.
On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote: As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them.
It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it.
What you are not understanding merz is, that if you want to be serious about acontract, make a valid one in the first place, I would completely agree with you if the contrac that coL did was well written, if it was the case they could sue Millenium, and do whatever they want to do, but don't talk about importance of contract if the contract is ridiculous in the first place
I'm under the assumption that coL who has been around since 2003 is perfectly capable of designing contracts that holds true legally in the US. Don't take me for a fool please, and don't take coL for fools either because they actually have a legitimate lawyer working for them.
What you are not understanding Faress, is that just because Millenium points fingers saying the contract is not valid, doesn't really say jack shit as long as it's valid in the US.
They clearly stated that the contract is missing things like the trial period (even if the trial period is 0 days) which is mandatory in EUROPE (CEE document 1991), but that's true that millenium could be lying about that but I doubt it
On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote: I think Stephano is better in France than in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion.
Your from france of course youd think that. Pretty much everyone in this thread who is from france is on stephano milleniums side, so im not surprised at all that you would think that.
I disagree. Everyone who made their first post in this thread are on Millenium's side. From what I see in this thread, a decent amount of French, including myself, are on Col's side.
On September 20 2011 05:51 ArnaudF wrote: Come on coL you tried to screw Millenium and got screwed back and any law pursuit in France will fail. Get over it and stop saying that this isn't over or that the whole esport scene will be behind you and it'll be felt world-wide.
Deal with it.
Except it seems the whole esports community is on their side, besides French people it seems.
The WHOLE esports community, really? Yes that's true, I've seen reactions of each big names of SC2 stating that they are with coL.
60 pages of TeamLiquid isn't the whole esports community.
On September 20 2011 05:51 ArnaudF wrote: Come on coL you tried to screw Millenium and got screwed back and any law pursuit in France will fail. Get over it and stop saying that this isn't over or that the whole esport scene will be behind you and it'll be felt world-wide.
Deal with it.
Except it seems the whole esports community is on their side, besides French people it seems.
How do you figure that? You just made it up cause it sounded good or can you prove it in any way?
Contracts, in the eyes of some people, only exist for convenience. I can only imagine what would happen if a team decided not to pay a player because "contracts are meaningless."
On September 20 2011 06:01 cheesemaster wrote: a statement from someone at complexity in the comments underneath the article.
Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.
In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely
Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough.
I'm pretty sure the problem is that it is arguably an employement contract for all intents and purposes. Service contracts or contractor contracts are linked to identifiable deliverables with the means to do it. Competing and playing SC2 is more an engagement of time and human power than deliverables.
So I'm pretty sure in France at least it would still be viewed as an employment contract, disguised
The biased Frenchman is going to argue with a lawyer. Lol.
I'm not biased. I don't care about Millenium which is a dead team for me. So don't go throwing this kind of arguments. I'm just explaining how things work in France for people not leaving there. And me being in a position where I have to review those sort of things daily. Without being a lawyer myself I do employ people and I have to know.
You cant only take french law into account though, US law still counts as well
On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote: I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion.
Why ? He could play with better players, he could play in bigger tournaments. Millenium is keeping him from big things I think.
If not Complexity here, at some point there will have to be legal action in one of these cases. Apparently contracts aren't worth the paper they're printed on in the SC2 scene, and that needs to change for any sort of legitimacy to take root.
On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote: I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion.
Why ? He could play with better players, he could play in bigger tournaments. Millenium is keeping him from big things I think.
On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote: I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion.
Why ? He could play with better players, he could play in bigger tournaments. Millenium is keeping him from big things I think.
You think the players are the best CoL?
no but MVP players that he would have access to are pretty fucking good
On September 20 2011 06:07 kigabit wrote: I'd like to get Millenium/Stephano's side of this, but someone posted that Millenium's manager doesn't think it's worth it to respond?
Yeah they Millennium and Stephano both weren't responding to coL's emails. Hell, they weren't even reading them. Pretty unprofessional on Millennium's behalf.
EPT
