Lack of content, flaming (of the French or anyone) and useless posts will be punished. Please keep it from being too inflammatory and keep discussion on-topic. -semioldguy (p.103)
On September 20 2011 06:11 pi_rate_pir_ate wrote: International law is a mystery to me that even large organizations like the NHL and NBA seem to have difficulty navigating. Sue them and I hope you win, but I have no idea if it will make money sense in the short term. The implication and intent of signing contracts is obviously over the heads for people this young. This is a great lesson for me as a landlord.
International contracts will be taken far more seriously as the U.S.'s power declines and inevitably partners even more with the European Union/UN and encourages the rest of the America's to follow suit, and yes at this point it's all a big mucky mystery for the most part, especially international digital property rights.
This whole thing is just weird gotta love how millenium trying to make themselves out as the good guy aswell and trying to point that coL tricking stephano like a kid with candy with no grounds or not even trying to clarify how they took advantage over him... such BS.
Millenium really show unprofessionalism which is sad because actors likes this within the scene is actually ruining esports.
Its just like kids in the "sandbox" or maybe resemblance to child school when people win a pokemon card over you. You go cry to the teacher and gets it back, No, esports still has far to go.
EDIT: From my PoV millenium is actually the ones doing the tricking.
The saddest part is that Millenium's response in the OP is even being taken serious by some.
The parts where they are trying to invoke nationalist furor and straw man arguments contentions about how coL is insulting France and French people are so ludicrous that they don't deserve to be taken serious and should erode any support for their side.
On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote: I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion.
lol @ another 1 post frenchy coming out of the woodwork to espouse how great staying with a team for less pay, worse practice, and no opportunity to attend lans or stay in a korean pro gaming house is beneficial for the player.
worse practice ? yeah sure look at all the fantastic results NA players have in tourneys...
On September 20 2011 06:05 s4life wrote: Methinks international law supersedes french law in international matters
just because stephano is in france does not making him signing a contract under texan law an international matter. same as if i went to teach english in korea, i'd sign the contract here, and wouldn't expect to be able to have english law supercede korean law
your example actually agrees with what I am trying to say.. korean law would supercede english law for your contract, because your contract was signed under korean (international to your home country) laws.
On September 20 2011 06:01 cheesemaster wrote: a statement from someone at complexity in the comments underneath the article.
Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.
In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely
Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough.
I'm pretty sure the problem is that it is arguably an employement contract for all intents and purposes. Service contracts or contractor contracts are linked to identifiable deliverables with the means to do it. Competing and playing SC2 is more an engagement of time and human power than deliverables.
So I'm pretty sure in France at least it would still be viewed as an employment contract, disguised
The biased Frenchman is going to argue with a lawyer. Lol.
I'm not biased. I don't care about Millenium which is a dead team for me. So don't go throwing this kind of arguments. I'm just explaining how things work in France for people not leaving there. And me being in a position where I have to review those sort of things daily. Without being a lawyer myself I do employ people and I have to know.
You cant only take french law into account though, US law still counts as well
I'm just presenting french side. I don't know international matters as I said.
On September 20 2011 06:04 Bellygareth wrote: Show nested quote +
I'm pretty sure the problem is that it is arguably an employement contract for all intents and purposes. Service contracts or contractor contracts are linked to identifiable deliverables with the means to do it. Competing and playing SC2 is more an engagement of time and human power than deliverables.
So I'm pretty sure in France at least it would still be viewed as an employment contract, disguised
It can be interpreted both ways though. For example: Col contracts Stephano to win MLG, DH and NASL. He can do whatever he wants in between, but he is gonna represent at the events. That can hardly be called an employment.
If you're required to show up at some place, it's an employment most often than not. The contract can't be based on winning a competition, because that's not a deliverable based only on the responsibility of the signing party. He can be asked to show up and represent Complexity ofc. However if it's just to "show up" it's not a valid deliverable either. It has to be tangible in some point.
On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote: As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them.
It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it.
What you are not understanding merz is, that if you want to be serious about acontract, make a valid one in the first place, I would completely agree with you if the contrac that coL did was well written, if it was the case they could sue Millenium, and do whatever they want to do, but don't talk about importance of contract if the contract is ridiculous in the first place
I'm under the assumption that coL who has been around since 2003 is perfectly capable of designing contracts that holds true legally in the US. Don't take me for a fool please, and don't take coL for fools either because they actually have a legitimate lawyer working for them.
What you are not understanding Faress, is that just because Millenium points fingers saying the contract is not valid, doesn't really say jack shit as long as it's valid in the US.
They clearly stated that the contract is missing things like the trial period (even if the trial period is 0 days) which is mandatory in EUROPE (CEE document 1991), but that's true that millenium could be lying about that but I doubt it
Again what relevance does this have to whether or not the contract is legally binding in the US? Just like Jason says in his announcement, French and hell, even EU Law, might give stephano and Millenium right, IN FRANCE. But does the same apply to the US? You're simplifying things.
Even if the contract is legally binding in the US (which it probably is) there's still a fuckton of things to work your way through (unless there's guidlines worked out between france - US) to make this work, but you are focusing on the wrong things. France Law doesn't have to give coL right in this in order for them to succeed.
On September 20 2011 06:11 Marcus420 wrote: jason lake seems to be a layer himself and looks for any attempt too sue someone.It'd be in good taste, if stephano wants too stay with millenium, too just let him stay and don't FORCE him on your team with legal bullshit.
:/
999 :D
They need to set a precedent so this doesnt happen again in the future, i think its a good thing for esports to hold people accountable should this contract be legit. I dont think they would force a player to play on their team that didnt want too (especially after this debacle) but what they can do is force millenium to buy stephano out of his contract with them (wich is for 12 months and probably worth a decent sum)
On September 20 2011 06:13 jmbthirteen wrote: This is absolutely disgusting by Mill and Stephano. Stephano is 18, he knew what he was doing when he signed the contract. And for those saying it was an illegal contract, how the fuck do you know? Did you read it? I have a feeling that jason lake knows how to make a contract. The actions by Mill are completely unprofessional and are why esports has a long way to go.
I hope the major teams support coL in taking legal action against Mill and I would love to see some tournaments deny Mill players from playing in them to help send a message that this shit won't stand. We need a governing body for sc2, or else shit like this will keep happening.
And they should be forbidden of going out of France too, and we should cut their heads and feed them to Jason.
doesn't stephano know what a legally binding contract is? how stupid is that guy?
very humiliating for complexity and stephano looks like a total moron in this. so damn unprofessional. I thought that guy was ncie but this? geez, get real man. one of the most unprofessional moments in sc2s (young) history
really hope complexity sues him for a lot of money, this is unbelievable.
People seem to think that everyone has the goal to live in korea and train there. I just googled a bit and it seems like Mill had plans on starting a team house in france for their players. Maybe, just maybe that's more interesting to Stephano? We don't know and speculating and focusing on the korean aspect might be null and void if Stephano has no real interest in moving, right?
On September 20 2011 06:05 s4life wrote: Methinks international law supersedes french law in international matters
just because stephano is in france does not making him signing a contract under texan law an international matter. same as if i went to teach english in korea, i'd sign the contract here, and wouldn't expect to be able to have english law supercede korean law
your example actually agrees with what I am trying to say.. korean law would supercede english law for your contract, because your contract was signed under korean (international to your home country) laws.
well, yes, but it is not international law, it's domestic state law, there is a subtle difference /pedantry
On September 20 2011 06:11 Marcus420 wrote: jason lake seems to be a layer himself and looks for any attempt too sue someone.It'd be in good taste, if stephano wants too stay with millenium, too just let him stay and don't FORCE him on your team with legal bullshit.
:/
999 :D
That's not what Col is after at all. They just want to make sure that esports doesn't fall apart due to contracts broken all over the place.
On September 20 2011 06:14 Lixo wrote: God all that hate. You guys scare me a lot, I just wanted to bash my zerg claws on terrans and protoss for the cerebrate daggoth.
Now this, hate on teams, on players, and people hoping they will pay for whatever they did...
God I won't look at the hate on EG the same way now that I see you all so serious...
this isnt just a game that people play for fun.... this is peoples lives. this is serious business
On September 20 2011 06:07 lim1017 wrote: I don't understand how there can be confusion as to weither or not something was signed... Seems idiot proof to me tbh.
Also isn't stephano studying in medical school or something, guy is apparently super smart, I'm sure he would know if he signed
Ya cause all doctors go to law school as well, the argument isnt whether he signed, but the legality of the contract
I'm pretty sure complexity wouldn't have made a retarded contract. They have lawyers that handle such matters.
Yeah and regardless of how well it is written it will be binding in some manner
On September 20 2011 05:52 Bellygareth wrote: To make things clear for everyone: even if Stephano had signed a real contract binding under french law, he would still be able to break it fairly easily considering: - it's customary to have a "trial period" in contracts - the contract signed by stephano would probably have been a "short term contract" or duration limited contract - Stephano had not even started to work for Col yet.
Even outside the trial period, the employee can break a "short term contract" or duration limited contract, if he can argue that he has a long term duration contract available (CDI). In that case he can be forced to work a minimum duration for the previous employer (for a maximum of 2 weeks and the actual time would be lower because he didn't work for Col at all).
So Stephano was free to change it under french law in my opinion. Disclaimer: it's not a lawyer opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but I know how it works. Under french law, Col won't have any chance I would bet.
So basically signing a contract with a french person is like gambling?
No.You just have to provide them job safety (ie : CDI as millenium did).
EPT
