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Stephano contract situation - Page 69

Forum Index > SC2 General
3152 CommentsPost a Reply
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Lack of content, flaming (of the French or anyone) and useless posts will be punished. Please keep it from being too inflammatory and keep discussion on-topic. -semioldguy (p.103)

Update: Please read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267506#1 and continue the discussion there.
Galaxy613
Profile Joined March 2011
United States148 Posts
September 19 2011 21:15 GMT
#1361
Frankly, I doubt and want nothing to happen over this. He signed it, but it's just a few days old. From the sounds of it, no money or ANYTHING has been given to Stephano, and Stephano has done nothing for Complexity. If they have already sent Stephano a paycheck then yeah, then at the least Steph should return that.

But IMO Col. should just cut their losses and let him go.
100,000 lightyears of awesome.
Brad Lah
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia19 Posts
September 19 2011 21:15 GMT
#1362
Kid probably has strong ties to friends and family - his youth makes leaps like this difficult and scarey
Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?
cheesemaster
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada1975 Posts
September 19 2011 21:15 GMT
#1363
On September 20 2011 06:13 meRz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 06:09 FaRess wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:04 meRz wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:01 FaRess wrote:
On September 20 2011 05:58 meRz wrote:
On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.

This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".

As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them.


It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it.


What you are not understanding merz is, that if you want to be serious about acontract, make a valid one in the first place, I would completely agree with you if the contrac that coL did was well written, if it was the case they could sue Millenium, and do whatever they want to do, but don't talk about importance of contract if the contract is ridiculous in the first place


I'm under the assumption that coL who has been around since 2003 is perfectly capable of designing contracts that holds true legally in the US. Don't take me for a fool please, and don't take coL for fools either because they actually have a legitimate lawyer working for them.

What you are not understanding Faress, is that just because Millenium points fingers saying the contract is not valid, doesn't really say jack shit as long as it's valid in the US.


They clearly stated that the contract is missing things like the trial period (even if the trial period is 0 days) which is mandatory in EUROPE (CEE document 1991), but that's true that millenium could be lying about that but I doubt it


Again what relevance does this have to whether or not the contract is legally binding in the US? Just like Jason says in his announcement, French and hell, even EU Law, might give stephano and Millenium right, IN FRANCE. But does the same apply to the US? You're simplifying things.

Even if the contract is legally binding in the US (which it probably is) there's still a fuckton of things to work your way through (unless there's guidlines worked out between france - US) to make this work, but you are focusing on the wrong things. France Law doesn't have to give coL right in this in order for them to succeed.

Agreed, people should read a comment made by complexity below their statement.

Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.

In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely

http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/

Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough.

Slayers_MMA The terran who beats terrans
XRaDiiX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1730 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 21:16:19
September 19 2011 21:16 GMT
#1364
You guys just don't get it already been said that CoL's Contract with Stephano Means Diddy Squat in France.

- He has a 1 month time frame to breach/void the contract before its permanent
- The Contract was apparently not Valid/Legal
-Stephano actually chooses to stay on Millenium (Personal Choice)
-Complexity is exacerbating worsening the situation by trying to sue Millenium/Stephano.


CoL has too much Pride and still trying to Pursue action (Which is a bad idea and will cause a Shit Storm)

CoL(Complexity) Trying to pursue a lawsuit in France over this i don't see it happening and/or working especially with what we have learned so far.

I still think Complexity deceived dis-oriented Stephano into signing something he didn't agree to. Not to mention the Contract wasn't a real Contract purportedly.
Never GG MKP | IdrA
AzurewinD
Profile Joined November 2010
United States569 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 21:16:48
September 19 2011 21:16 GMT
#1365
I like how they hid behind their showmatch stream by claiming they couldn't respond to coL's emails, and then proceeded to talk about the incident anyways while coL was still waiting for their personal reply.
"...I want more people to be in that state more often, to see things not through the limited and rigid mind or the fearful ego, but through a heart that loves to express and create" - Xiaonan "Glider" Sun
SolidMustard
Profile Joined May 2011
France1515 Posts
September 19 2011 21:16 GMT
#1366
Stefano should know what he wants...
parabs
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada68 Posts
September 19 2011 21:16 GMT
#1367
I fully support Complexity taking legal action here. They did nothing wrong if the jurisdiction is indeed Texas. The contract would be valid and would probably hold up in court. Even if it doesn't they don't really have much to lose, they have the money and the fans are mostly on their side.
Megiddosc
Profile Joined April 2011
United States966 Posts
September 19 2011 21:16 GMT
#1368
On September 20 2011 06:12 Tamotab wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 06:05 Snorkle wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote:
I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion.



lol @ another 1 post frenchy coming out of the woodwork to espouse how great staying with a team for less pay, worse practice, and no opportunity to attend lans or stay in a korean pro gaming house is beneficial for the player.


worse practice ? yeah sure look at all the fantastic results NA players have in tourneys...

Who was it who won HSC3 and Dreamhack Summer? Hmmm....
ceaRshaf
Profile Joined August 2009
Romania4926 Posts
September 19 2011 21:16 GMT
#1369
Dudes, it doesn't even matter if Stephano was binded with the contract. What's important is that he treated the negotiation poorly. If you don't plan on going somewhere don't promise anything, and don't act like you would. Backing out in the last second just because you can doesn't count as an honorable thing.
Mess with the best, die like the rest.
Koorb
Profile Joined March 2011
France266 Posts
September 19 2011 21:16 GMT
#1370
On September 20 2011 06:13 wats0n wrote:
The saddest part is that Millenium's response in the OP is even being taken serious by some.

The parts where they are trying to invoke nationalist furor and straw man arguments contentions about how coL is insulting France and French people are so ludicrous that they don't deserve to be taken serious and should erode any support for their side.


... Millenium's response comes from Cédric "Cedrix" Page, boss of Millenium, who posted it in a news hosted on the main page of millenium.org.
Liquipedia
wats0n
Profile Joined July 2011
United States509 Posts
September 19 2011 21:16 GMT
#1371
On September 20 2011 06:11 Marcus420 wrote:
jason lake seems to be a layer himself and looks for any attempt too sue someone.It'd be in good taste, if stephano wants too stay with millenium, too just let him stay and don't FORCE him on your team with legal bullshit.

:/

999 :D


They wouldn't be suing to retain Stephano. That ship has sailed. They would be suing to uphold the integrity of contract law in e-sports. For the professional people who actually are trying to make a career in e-sports I hope to god they sue Millenium.
MattBarry
Profile Joined March 2011
United States4006 Posts
September 19 2011 21:16 GMT
#1372
A pretty weird situation. Fickle teenagers stirring up controversy. I'm interested to see the outcome of the situation. Seems like Complexity was wronged atm
Platinum Support GOD
ZestyPickle
Profile Joined July 2011
United States104 Posts
September 19 2011 21:17 GMT
#1373
On September 20 2011 06:15 Bellygareth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 06:11 grobo wrote:
On September 20 2011 05:52 Bellygareth wrote:
To make things clear for everyone: even if Stephano had signed a real contract binding under french law, he would still be able to break it fairly easily considering:
- it's customary to have a "trial period" in contracts
- the contract signed by stephano would probably have been a "short term contract" or duration limited contract
- Stephano had not even started to work for Col yet.

Even outside the trial period, the employee can break a "short term contract" or duration limited contract, if he can argue that he has a long term duration contract available (CDI). In that case he can be forced to work a minimum duration for the previous employer (for a maximum of 2 weeks and the actual time would be lower because he didn't work for Col at all).

So Stephano was free to change it under french law in my opinion.
Disclaimer: it's not a lawyer opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but I know how it works. Under french law, Col won't have any chance I would bet.



So basically signing a contract with a french person is like gambling?

No.You just have to provide them job safety (ie : CDI as millenium did).


lololololol it doesnt matter what french law says, US law on a contract signed under the knowledge of joining a US organization.
ArnaudF
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
France993 Posts
September 19 2011 21:17 GMT
#1374
On September 20 2011 06:16 XRaDiiX wrote:
You guys just don't get it already been said that CoL's Contract with Stephano Means Diddy Squat in France.

- He has a 1 month time frame to breach/void the contract before its permanent
- The Contract was apparently not Valid/Legal
-Stephano actually chooses to stay on Millenium (Personal Choice)
-Complexity is exacerbating worsening the situation by trying to sue Millenium/Stephano.


CoL has too much Pride and still trying to Pursue action (Which is a bad idea and will cause a Shit Storm)

CoL(Complexity) Trying to pursue a lawsuit in France over this i don't see it happening and/or working especially with what we have learned so far.

I still think Complexity deceived dis-oriented Stephano into signing something he didn't agree to. Not to mention the Contract wasn't a real Contract purportedly.


+1.

User was warned for this post
My heart aches with pain, When I see you I vomit, Die away from me
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
September 19 2011 21:17 GMT
#1375
On September 20 2011 06:15 ellirc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 06:11 Marcus420 wrote:
jason lake seems to be a layer himself and looks for any attempt too sue someone.It'd be in good taste, if stephano wants too stay with millenium, too just let him stay and don't FORCE him on your team with legal bullshit.

:/

999 :D

That's not what Col is after at all. They just want to make sure that esports doesn't fall apart due to contracts broken all over the place.

pretty much this

if esports contracts can be broken by "Oh I don't feel like...." or "oh in X country it doesn't matter", etc, then it just.... messes everything up.
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
Kaedeleus
Profile Joined September 2011
France20 Posts
September 19 2011 21:17 GMT
#1376
On September 20 2011 06:12 sixfour wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 06:09 Kaedeleus wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:04 DertoQq wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote:
I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion.


Why ? He could play with better players, he could play in bigger tournaments. Millenium is keeping him from big things I think.


You think the players are the best CoL?

well, i would think if he was flown to korea to play genius, dongraegu, keen, noblesse etc, he'd be playing people slightly better than tarson and adelscott


I was speaking of the U.S. team, the Koreans are above all and Millennium can also have a partnership with a Korean team
Sandro
Profile Joined April 2011
897 Posts
September 19 2011 21:17 GMT
#1377
On September 20 2011 06:14 ArnaudF wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 06:13 jmbthirteen wrote:
This is absolutely disgusting by Mill and Stephano. Stephano is 18, he knew what he was doing when he signed the contract. And for those saying it was an illegal contract, how the fuck do you know? Did you read it? I have a feeling that jason lake knows how to make a contract. The actions by Mill are completely unprofessional and are why esports has a long way to go.

I hope the major teams support coL in taking legal action against Mill and I would love to see some tournaments deny Mill players from playing in them to help send a message that this shit won't stand. We need a governing body for sc2, or else shit like this will keep happening.



And they should be forbidden of going out of France too, and we should cut their heads and feed them to Jason.

With the way the French scene is, he won't be leaving regardless.
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
September 19 2011 21:17 GMT
#1378
On September 20 2011 06:16 XRaDiiX wrote:
You guys just don't get it already been said that CoL's Contract with Stephano Means Diddy Squat in France.

- He has a 1 month time frame to breach/void the contract before its permanent
- The Contract was apparently not Valid/Legal
-Stephano actually chooses to stay on Millenium (Personal Choice)
-Complexity is exacerbating worsening the situation by trying to sue Millenium/Stephano.


CoL has too much Pride and still trying to Pursue action (Which is a bad idea and will cause a Shit Storm)

CoL(Complexity) Trying to pursue a lawsuit in France over this i don't see it happening and/or working especially with what we have learned so far.

I still think Complexity deceived dis-oriented Stephano into signing something he didn't agree to. Not to mention the Contract wasn't a real Contract purportedly.


The contract doesn't have to mean anything in France, it could be worth literally nothing, the jurisdiction of the contract was in the USA, which means he is bound by American law.
if (post == "stupid") { document.getElementById('post').style.display = 'none'; }
Blasphemi
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom980 Posts
September 19 2011 21:17 GMT
#1379
Seems like Stephano has acted like an immature child. Unfortunately as with Major and others being good at games at a young often means you miss out on other skills.
Shockk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany2269 Posts
September 19 2011 21:17 GMT
#1380
On September 20 2011 06:11 Marcus420 wrote:
jason lake seems to be a layer himself and looks for any attempt too sue someone.It'd be in good taste, if stephano wants too stay with millenium, too just let him stay and don't FORCE him on your team with legal bullshit.

:/

999 :D


The thing is, they - and the whole scene - can't afford to be very lenient here.

SC2 is growing, which means many talents have yet to emerge and rise to the top. Many of those will be teens when discovered or young adults at best, and they'll be spread across the globe and not concentrated in a single country. All teams will have to deal with international contract issues and with players too young to have any real experience in life and legal matters in the future, much more so than in Broodwar.

Complexity can either make a stand here to set an example for how business should be done, or they can ignore "legal bullshit" and "be in good taste" like you'd like it - which would just be a signal to players and teams alike that anything goes and professional handling of contracts can be ignored without consequences.
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