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On September 20 2011 06:18 Kaedeleus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:17 ZestyPickle wrote:On September 20 2011 06:15 Bellygareth wrote:On September 20 2011 06:11 grobo wrote:On September 20 2011 05:52 Bellygareth wrote:
To make things clear for everyone: even if Stephano had signed a real contract binding under french law, he would still be able to break it fairly easily considering:
- it's customary to have a "trial period" in contracts
- the contract signed by stephano would probably have been a "short term contract" or duration limited contract
- Stephano had not even started to work for Col yet.
Even outside the trial period, the employee can break a "short term contract" or duration limited contract, if he can argue that he has a long term duration contract available (CDI). In that case he can be forced to work a minimum duration for the previous employer (for a maximum of 2 weeks and the actual time would be lower because he didn't work for Col at all).
So Stephano was free to change it under french law in my opinion.
Disclaimer: it's not a lawyer opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but I know how it works. Under french law, Col won't have any chance I would bet.
So basically signing a contract with a french person is like gambling? No.You just have to provide them job safety (ie : CDI as millenium did). Stephano is french so the French law applies. That's all endpoint lololololol it doesnt matter what french law says, US law on a contract signed under the knowledge of joining a US organization.
No its not. You cant fucking sign an international contract then cherry pick a nation laws to suit your needs.
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On September 20 2011 06:11 grobo wrote:
So basically signing a contract with a french person is like gambling?
No, basically that means that making a 18-year old sign a contract at 3a.m without noticing his team is something that can have fallouts...
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what is wrong with stephano free room/trip/food? to play in and live in korea the best place to game and he doesn't want to take it .... why? isn't that like the peak of any player playing this game?
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Why are you doing this TL? I should go to sleep but I keep hitting F5 -_-.
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Lol, seems like compLexity got buttfucked and Stephano's age might be showing a little...c'est la vie.
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The best way to handle this is definitly a ClanWar :D
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On September 20 2011 06:13 ondik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:12 Tamotab wrote:On September 20 2011 06:05 Snorkle wrote:On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote:
I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion. lol @ another 1 post frenchy coming out of the woodwork to espouse how great staying with a team for less pay, worse practice, and no opportunity to attend lans or stay in a korean pro gaming house is beneficial for the player. worse practice ? yeah sure look at all the fantastic results NA players have in tourneys... oh my god, the french invasion! he was supposed to go to korea with coL.
You don't know that... Unless I'm mistaking coL never send anyone in Korea, and didn't said in their announcement that they were sending Stephano to Korea. Easy to say that afterward...
When Huk left Millenium to TL and when ToD left to Fnatic there was no problem.
Not saying that Stephano was right but when you are negociating with a player during several weeks, you don't offer him a last counter offer et 4am and then ask him to sign immediately a contract.
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We can't keep having these issues. Every time there's a dispute each party types out an appeal to the community saying they tried everything and they're dealing with some crazy decision-making. This has been the case in Korea and abroad. I mean, most interactions between teams are probably totally diplomatic, but this regular drama is wacky. As confused as I am about the players association in Korea, at least there's this organization that's applying some pressure to keep teams operating in a certain way. Maybe we'd have fewer shitshows in international Starcraft if there were something comparable.
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On September 20 2011 06:19 Thurken wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:11 grobo wrote:
So basically signing a contract with a french person is like gambling? No, basically that means that making a 18-year old sign a contract at 3a.m without noticing his team is something that can have fallouts...
who said that they "made" him
do they have proof of the knife?
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On September 20 2011 06:17 ZestyPickle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:15 Bellygareth wrote:On September 20 2011 06:11 grobo wrote:On September 20 2011 05:52 Bellygareth wrote:
To make things clear for everyone: even if Stephano had signed a real contract binding under french law, he would still be able to break it fairly easily considering:
- it's customary to have a "trial period" in contracts
- the contract signed by stephano would probably have been a "short term contract" or duration limited contract
- Stephano had not even started to work for Col yet.
Even outside the trial period, the employee can break a "short term contract" or duration limited contract, if he can argue that he has a long term duration contract available (CDI). In that case he can be forced to work a minimum duration for the previous employer (for a maximum of 2 weeks and the actual time would be lower because he didn't work for Col at all).
So Stephano was free to change it under french law in my opinion.
Disclaimer: it's not a lawyer opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but I know how it works. Under french law, Col won't have any chance I would bet.
So basically signing a contract with a french person is like gambling? No.You just have to provide them job safety (ie : CDI as millenium did). lololololol it doesnt matter what french law says, US law on a contract signed under the knowledge of joining a US organization.
I know you're just trolling or probably never worked one day of your life nor know what a contract is. But I will still answer for the third time :
I'm just presenting the side of what I know is true in France. I don't know international matters.
I was answering a specific question and you're randomly attacking even though I'm not taking any side whatsoever.
For international laws between US and Fr I don't know jack shit. I REPEAT : JACK SHIT. Now please stop arguing with nonissues.
Edit : I wikipedia'd it :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_laws
It mentions :
The court must first decide whether it has jurisdiction and, if so, whether it is the appropriate venue given the problem of forum shopping.
The next step is the characterisation of the cause of action into its component legal categories which may sometimes involve an incidental question (also note the distinction between procedural and substantive laws).
Each legal category has one or more choice of law rules to determine which of the competing laws should be applied to each issue. A key element in this may be the rules on renvoi.
Once the applicable law is decided, that law must be proved before the forum court and applied to reach a judgment.
The successful party must then enforce the judgment which will first involve the task of securing cross-border recognition of the judgment.
Conclusion: it's a fucking mess.
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On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them.
Paladia as a law student you really are 100% sure?? Let me tell you something real lawyers are never 100% sure about anything and always qualify their statements so there are outs.
This situation is the reason 1 page contracts turn into 500 page epic novels.
Lawyers they are the real winners.
It is a shame but what Mil did here is why the the world has become a legal landmine so much wasted time and money on papering something that should be (in the ideal world) confirmed with only someones word and a handshake.
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On September 20 2011 06:18 DertoQq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:09 Kaedeleus wrote:On September 20 2011 06:04 DertoQq wrote:On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote:
I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion. Why ? He could play with better players, he could play in bigger tournaments. Millenium is keeping him from big things I think. You think the players are the best in CoL?  Being in an American team like Col means you're going to play at MLG, NASL, maybe GSL etc.. Being in a French team means you're going to play on stupid unknown french LANs. You're smart, I think you can see what is the best choice.
But Millennium sends Stephano to MLG Orlando, IPL 3, probably in Korea. And do not speak french on lan when you do not know
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On September 20 2011 06:13 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:09 FaRess wrote:On September 20 2011 06:04 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 06:01 FaRess wrote:On September 20 2011 05:58 meRz wrote:On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them. It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it. What you are not understanding merz is, that if you want to be serious about acontract, make a valid one in the first place, I would completely agree with you if the contrac that coL did was well written, if it was the case they could sue Millenium, and do whatever they want to do, but don't talk about importance of contract if the contract is ridiculous in the first place I'm under the assumption that coL who has been around since 2003 is perfectly capable of designing contracts that holds true legally in the US. Don't take me for a fool please, and don't take coL for fools either because they actually have a legitimate lawyer working for them. What you are not understanding Faress, is that just because Millenium points fingers saying the contract is not valid, doesn't really say jack shit as long as it's valid in the US. They clearly stated that the contract is missing things like the trial period (even if the trial period is 0 days) which is mandatory in EUROPE (CEE document 1991), but that's true that millenium could be lying about that but I doubt it Again what relevance does this have to whether or not the contract is legally binding in the US? Just like Jason says in his announcement, French and hell, even EU Law, might give stephano and Millenium right, IN FRANCE. But does the same apply to the US? You're simplifying things. Even if the contract is legally binding in the US (which it probably is) there's still a fuckton of things to work your way through (unless there's guidlines worked out between france - US) to make this work, but you are focusing on the wrong things. France Law doesn't have to give coL right in this in order for them to succeed.
Well if the US couldn't get Polanski back from Europe i doubt that Stephano and Millenium will have any trouble lol.
edit: PR damage being already done ;d
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On September 20 2011 06:17 Kaedeleus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:12 sixfour wrote:On September 20 2011 06:09 Kaedeleus wrote:On September 20 2011 06:04 DertoQq wrote:On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote:
I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion. Why ? He could play with better players, he could play in bigger tournaments. Millenium is keeping him from big things I think. You think the players are the best CoL? well, i would think if he was flown to korea to play genius, dongraegu, keen, noblesse etc, he'd be playing people slightly better than tarson and adelscott I was speaking of the U.S. team, the Koreans are above all and Millennium can also have a partnership with a Korean team
Could have a partnership but don't have a partnership now and also said they don't plan on sending Stephano to Korea according to the stream earlier.
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On September 20 2011 06:16 wats0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:11 Marcus420 wrote:
jason lake seems to be a layer himself and looks for any attempt too sue someone.It'd be in good taste, if stephano wants too stay with millenium, too just let him stay and don't FORCE him on your team with legal bullshit.
:/
999 :D They wouldn't be suing to retain Stephano. That ship has sailed. They would be suing to uphold the integrity of contract law in e-sports. For the professional people who actually are trying to make a career in e-sports I hope to god they sue Millenium.
I hope to god organizations like Millenium who disregard written contracts, bully young players and resort to mean spirited insults and nationalistic bashing, dissapear for good ( I hope coL has a lot to do with it).. there is no place for croonie-cavemen like them in e-sports.
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As I see it, stephano 'should' of just sat down, weighted his options, and taken all the time he needed to actually make the decision. Whether that involves talking it over with his team, family, or friends. Instead it seems like he was still undecided while signing the contract. Then to go back on that is just a lame thing to do. It puts everyone involved into an odd spot that could of been altogether avoided if he had only thought through before making his final decision.
I feel bad for complexity AND millennium for having to try and clean this mess up.
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okay,
"After we discussed the matter with him, Stephano understood his mistake, and decided to stay for good with Millenium for the next 12 months."
sounds like mobster code for
"We used some form of leverage to ensure that he would not leave us despite the better pay and training, despite that he was really excited to do so. We will keep him for another year at the least"
or have i just watched too much sopranos?
Now for what leverage means it can go two ways, either mill might have something "on him" or have a way to influence him, perhaps with benefits for friends/family or some other factor. It could be as simple as Stephano not believing Mill could take him where he wants to go, and mill convincing him to give them more time.
It just seems to me like the whole "mistake" talk is a code for something else, much like when a parent covers for a kid who has just done something wrong at school.
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On September 20 2011 06:20 Tamotab wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:13 ondik wrote:On September 20 2011 06:12 Tamotab wrote:On September 20 2011 06:05 Snorkle wrote:On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote:
I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion. lol @ another 1 post frenchy coming out of the woodwork to espouse how great staying with a team for less pay, worse practice, and no opportunity to attend lans or stay in a korean pro gaming house is beneficial for the player. worse practice ? yeah sure look at all the fantastic results NA players have in tourneys... oh my god, the french invasion! he was supposed to go to korea with coL. You don't know that... Unless I'm mistaking coL never send anyone in Korea, and didn't said in their announcement that they were sending Stephano to Korea. Easy to say that afterward... When Huk left Millenium to TL and when ToD left to Fnatic there was no problem. Not saying that Stephano was right but when you are negociating with a player during several weeks, you don't offer him a last counter offer et 4am and then ask him to sign immediately a contract.
you are wrong drewbie is in korea, no reason not to send stephano to and make that 4 am a 5 am and add some threats to, this thread is getting awesome
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On September 20 2011 06:20 Tamotab wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 06:13 ondik wrote:On September 20 2011 06:12 Tamotab wrote:On September 20 2011 06:05 Snorkle wrote:On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote:
I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion. lol @ another 1 post frenchy coming out of the woodwork to espouse how great staying with a team for less pay, worse practice, and no opportunity to attend lans or stay in a korean pro gaming house is beneficial for the player. worse practice ? yeah sure look at all the fantastic results NA players have in tourneys... oh my god, the french invasion! he was supposed to go to korea with coL. You don't know that... Unless I'm mistaking coL never send anyone in Korea, and didn't said in their announcement that they were sending Stephano to Korea. Easy to say that afterward... When Huk left Millenium to TL and when ToD left to Fnatic there was no problem. Not saying that Stephano was right but when you are negociating with a player during several weeks, you don't offer him a last counter offer et 4am and then ask him to sign immediately a contract.
We currently have Drewbie there as we speak...
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On September 20 2011 06:16 XRaDiiX wrote:
You guys just don't get it already been said that CoL's Contract with Stephano Means Diddy Squat in France.
- He has a 1 month time frame to breach/void the contract before its permanent
- The Contract was apparently not Valid/Legal
-Stephano actually chooses to stay on Millenium (Personal Choice)
-Complexity is exacerbating worsening the situation by trying to sue Millenium/Stephano.
CoL has too much Pride and still trying to Pursue action (Which is a bad idea and will cause a Shit Storm)
CoL(Complexity) Trying to pursue a lawsuit in France over this i don't see it happening and/or working especially with what we have learned so far.
I still think Complexity deceived dis-oriented Stephano into signing something he didn't agree to. Not to mention the Contract wasn't a real Contract purportedly.
col has the choice of what law to use for their contract, they chose US law. In fact there is a international contract law protecting complexities rights and decision. From everything we know so far, the only conclusion, though im not saying we should make one yet, is that Col is in the right here.
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EPT
