Lack of content, flaming (of the French or anyone) and useless posts will be punished. Please keep it from being too inflammatory and keep discussion on-topic. -semioldguy (p.103)
On September 20 2011 06:01 cheesemaster wrote: a statement from someone at complexity in the comments underneath the article.
Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.
In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely
Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough.
I'm pretty sure the problem is that it is arguably an employement contract for all intents and purposes. Service contracts or contractor contracts are linked to identifiable deliverables with the means to do it. Competing and playing SC2 is more an engagement of time and human power than deliverables.
So I'm pretty sure in France at least it would still be viewed as an employment contract, disguised
On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote: As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them.
It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it.
What you are not understanding merz is, that if you want to be serious about acontract, make a valid one in the first place, I would completely agree with you if the contrac that coL did was well written, if it was the case they could sue Millenium, and do whatever they want to do, but don't talk about importance of contract if the contract is ridiculous in the first place
The validity of a contract is a matter for the court to decide.. you can revise any contracta a thousand times ... there will still be things left out or wrongly worded. Methinks international law supersedes french law in international matters and contracts and coL has a pretty good chance of sinking millenium as a team in its entirety.. not without hurting themselves though, that's what they are weighting right now..
On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote: I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion.
lol @ another 1 post frenchy coming out of the woodwork to espouse how great staying with a team for less pay, worse practice, and no opportunity to attend lans or stay in a korean pro gaming house is beneficial for the player.
On September 20 2011 06:04 dib wrote: coL needs to gtfo
I'm going to laugh at your expense when this is settled in their favor.
On September 20 2011 06:05 ceaRshaf wrote: I never liked Stephano, and now i actually care less about him. This matters show players are not professional.
Hopefully this will resolve in such a way that other players will learn a lesson about breach of contract, and not do it.
On September 20 2011 06:01 cheesemaster wrote: a statement from someone at complexity in the comments underneath the article.
Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.
In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely
On September 20 2011 06:01 cheesemaster wrote: a statement from someone at complexity in the comments underneath the article.
Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.
In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely
Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough.
I'm pretty sure the problem is that it is arguably an employement contract for all intents and purposes. Service contracts or contractor contracts are linked to identifiable deliverables with the means to do it. Competing and playing SC2 is more an engagement of time and human power than deliverables.
So I'm pretty sure in France at least it would still be viewed as an employment contract, disguised
The biased Frenchman is going to argue with a lawyer. Lol.
On September 20 2011 05:51 ArnaudF wrote: Come on coL you tried to screw Millenium and got screwed back and any law pursuit in France will fail. Get over it and stop saying that this isn't over or that the whole esport scene will be behind you and it'll be felt world-wide.
Deal with it.
Except it seems the whole esports community is on their side, besides French people it seems.
On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote: As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.
This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".
As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them.
It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it.
What you are not understanding merz is, that if you want to be serious about acontract, make a valid one in the first place, I would completely agree with you if the contrac that coL did was well written, if it was the case they could sue Millenium, and do whatever they want to do, but don't talk about importance of contract if the contract is ridiculous in the first place
Again, a contract is not "ridiculous" just because it doesn't uphold to another country's contract standards.
An analogy would be laws. If you break a law in a foreign country you will be persecuted for it even if the law doesn't exist in your own country. Your own government (unless it's France in some cases ) may even allow extradition or even prosecute you in your own country if you fled back home.
Stephano signed a U.S. contract with a U.S. team. Any French court will concur that he is bound by the contract law of the country to which he is submitting.
On September 20 2011 05:15 Hipsv wrote: What this shows me is that Stephano is just a kid, he obviously didn't seriously consider the legal and non legal ramifications of his actions and as a result flopped on his decision.
I too at 18 did lots of flopping on big decisions (nothing as legally binding), so I can sympathize with his situation, however I also realize that its youthful irresponsibility that caused this whole situation whether or not his fans or the coL haters want to admit it. I can't imagine what it would be like to be young and have big amounts of money thrown at you to play a game you enjoy, but its also his responsibility to carefully decide his course of action and to follow contracts he signed.
I think that what coL should take from this is that they really need to be thorough when dealing with players from other countries at explaining their contracts and what it means. They absolutely have a right to either pursue Mill to buy out his contract or have Stephano play for them, however I personally think seeking Mill to buy the contract out is the more diplomatic approach.
Stephano definitely needs to grow up. Flopping on HUGE decisions like this makes him seem childish and it at least partially rubs off onto the scene. Staying true to your word (in most ordinary circumstances) is one of the most important aspects of being an adult and he definitely has not stayed true to his word to at least one party here.
Mill definitely needs to learn about contract law at least, and idk it seems like they pressured him into staying
I agree it was an extremely immature decision on stephano's part and in the future other teams will probably be hesitant to deal with him regardless of his skill.
I absolutely think legal action should be taken , Col needs to set a precedent for the esports scene , i think it would negatively affect the esports scene if they just let this go.
The problem is Stephano is still just a kid, only 18 years old. He probably doesn't know a lot about contracts and the such, and only has the two opposing parties to listen to.
IMO he needs some sort of agent, like professional sports players have (NHL, NFL, NBA...all the players regardless of how old have agents). Young players like Stephano need someone not affiliated with either party to negotiate and work out contracts and to make sure contracts are honored. An agent/lawyer would be extremely beneficial to him.
Not an agent, a lawyer. No one should ever sign a business contract of this nature without a lawyer.
Not even a lawyer. He needs a brain. Anyone dumb enough to sign a contract they haven't picked through is deserving of whatever comes to them imo
On September 20 2011 06:01 cheesemaster wrote: a statement from someone at complexity in the comments underneath the article.
Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.
In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely
Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough.
I'm pretty sure the problem is that it is arguably an employement contract for all intents and purposes. Service contracts or contractor contracts are linked to identifiable deliverables with the means to do it. Competing and playing SC2 is more an engagement of time and human power than deliverables.
So I'm pretty sure in France at least it would still be viewed as an employment contract, disguised
It can be interpreted both ways though. For example: Col contracts Stephano to win MLG, DH and NASL. He can do whatever he wants in between, but he is gonna represent at the events. That can hardly be called an employment.
On September 20 2011 06:05 s4life wrote: Methinks international law supersedes french law in international matters
just because stephano is in france does not making him signing a contract under texan law an international matter. same as if i went to teach english in korea, i'd sign the contract here, and wouldn't expect to be able to have english law supercede korean law
Mill acting like a bunch of children, sort your shit out and maybe people actually give a crap about your team! Sorry, but if Stephano stays at Millenium he won't have anywhere near the opportunities to further himself than he would at coL, same reason ToD left, cos he's better than that.
On September 20 2011 06:07 kigabit wrote: I'd like to get Millenium/Stephano's side of this, but someone posted that Millenium's manager doesn't think it's worth it to respond?
No lol? He's just managing a showmatch and then he'll give a statement later apparently.
regardless of any details of the contract or who is right/wrong it might be a good idea if the team wanting a player from another team talks with that team - not because they are obliged to but because it will prevent such humbug in most cases.
On September 20 2011 06:03 Kaedeleus wrote: I think Stephano is better in France in Millenium than an American team at the other end of the world. Of course, but it's just my opinion.
Your opinion, but i'm curious why you think this. Complexity has the means to send him to Korea to train with MVP which cant possibly be a bad thing for anyone. Talented players who train in Korea are proven to get better. It sounds like Milenium is more concerned with building up the eSports scene in France and to be honest it seems unlikely he'll ever get a chance to train in the way joining Complexity would allow him to.
Even if Milenium offered him more money, joining a major NA team benefits him way more. Unless he is absolutely passionate about building up the French esports scene, and he might very well be.
EPT
) may even allow extradition or even prosecute you in your own country if you fled back home.
