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Stephano contract situation - Page 63

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Lack of content, flaming (of the French or anyone) and useless posts will be punished. Please keep it from being too inflammatory and keep discussion on-topic. -semioldguy (p.103)

Update: Please read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267506#1 and continue the discussion there.
archonOOid
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1983 Posts
September 19 2011 20:56 GMT
#1241
The OP features a great deal of information about what complementarity thinks but what does stephano has to say? Is there any new information? Also has any one been able to hack into any complexity servers to gain access to the contract? I think the contract might verify or bust some of the arguments made by the complexity boss.
I'm Quotable (IQ)
ImHuko
Profile Joined December 2010
United States996 Posts
September 19 2011 20:56 GMT
#1242
On September 20 2011 05:53 Sqq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 05:52 Bellygareth wrote:
To make things clear for everyone: even if Stephano had signed a real contract binding under french law, he would still be able to break it fairly easily considering:
- it's customary to have a "trial period" in contracts
- the contract signed by stephano would probably have been a "short term contract" or duration limited contract
- Stephano had not even started to work for Col yet.

Even outside the trial period, the employee can break a "short term contract" or duration limited contract, if he can argue that he has a long term duration contract available (CDI). In that case he can be forced to work a minimum duration for the previous employer (for a maximum of 2 weeks and the actual time would be lower because he didn't work for Col at all).

So Stephano was free to change it under french law in my opinion.
Disclaimer: it's not a lawyer opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but I know how it works. Under french law, Col won't have any chance I would bet.



Thats the bits I've collected about the laws there aswell. It still a douche move by Stephano. And it makes the whole sc2 pro scene look like a big laugh.

Stephano is 17, he used to start every game by saying "PINK POWER RANGER GOGO!" or something like that. Calling him a douche because he is just a kid and doesn't understand the importance of everything yet is a bit rude. Stephano just plays the game, apparently he doesn't read any sites like TL or anything, he just enjoys the game. Everything all of a sudden has probably gotten way too involved for him, he just wants to play the game.
unsaintly
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany687 Posts
September 19 2011 20:56 GMT
#1243
On September 20 2011 05:55 XRaDiiX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 05:38 Angelbelow wrote:
On September 20 2011 05:35 Chill wrote:
On September 20 2011 05:34 ZestyPickle wrote:
On September 20 2011 05:33 Seronei wrote:
On September 20 2011 05:32 f0rzaa wrote:
the french have laws to protect and allow them to pull this shit? LOL

The US allows people to sign illegal contracts and have them be legal? LOL


Because you know his contract was illegal?

col have said it wasn't a real contract a few pages back.


youre right, that is huge. i wonder what informal piece of paper they made him sign. Maybe they wanted to contract him in person, regardless, this means that the thread started by col yesterday regarding them signing stephano was premature.


And so all the people who attacked us for supporting Stephano realise their mistakes now ...

You're right that means CoL.s announcement on TeamLiquid Yesterday Was pre-mature... Especially if we learned the Contract was not 'Legal' in any way.

If its not a legally binding contract. As i said earlier in the Thread CoL.(Complexity) Should not (or cannot) take legal action because it would cause a Shit Storm.

Just leave Mill(Millenium) alone let them keep Stephano and leave the Situation alone.

Seems to me CoL. was/is trying to exacerbate the situation. Whats funny though is if their Contract wasn't even Legal at all ( which is what is now being said) . Then they have no say in the matter.

CoL screwed up Just like their attempted aquiring of vVvTitan. Like i said Earlier... Sneaky Snake..

The Mods on Stephano Stream were saying the Contract wasn't Legal few hours ago.

The trolling gets old really fast don't you think?
FaRess
Profile Joined September 2010
Tunisia937 Posts
September 19 2011 20:57 GMT
#1244
On September 20 2011 05:55 AzurewinD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 05:47 zhurai wrote:
On September 20 2011 05:46 ride wrote:
The Mill manager said that he couldn't answer to Col right now because he is streaming a showmatch between Lucifron and Hasuobs and cancelling the showmatch wouldn't be fair for these both platers who are not involved in this story.

For the "false contract" it means that in France a contract is very regulated. But Col's contract wasn't ok with some laws. So stephano couldn't "work" with this contract since it is not a legal one.

doesn't mean it's a "false contract".
unless this manager doesn't know what "false" actually means.



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267130&currentpage=50#1000

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267130&currentpage=54#1073


So according to the translations of the Millenium stream provided by random posters in this thread (DISCLAIMER, prossibly dubious at best considering low post count).

The manger of Mil first claims coL never contacted them, but then admits they DID contact him, but can't spare the time to respond because he's busy casting a showmatch (EL OH EL WTF??), then says it's probably not worth responding to them anyway?

Finding it difficult to sympathize with Mil here so far.


I will talk for myself, what Llewellys said is he didn't get contacted when they signe stephano, it has nothing to do with the fact tha coL sended him an email tonight
YoloStar <3
ArnaudF
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
France993 Posts
September 19 2011 20:57 GMT
#1245
On September 20 2011 05:53 Mazer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 05:51 ArnaudF wrote:
Come on coL you tried to screw Millenium and got screwed back and any law pursuit in France will fail. Get over it and stop saying that this isn't over or that the whole esport scene will be behind you and it'll be felt world-wide.

Deal with it.


Even if turns out that MIll is legally 'free' from any action by coL, Mill has made themselves look like idiots and Stephano is getting shafted regardless of the outcome (through his own fault to a good degree)


I'm not saying the opposite. This is devastating for both Millenium and Stephano and they both acted like dicks but my point is that coL won't pull anything of that case and all their statements will lead to nothing.
My heart aches with pain, When I see you I vomit, Die away from me
Baerinho
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany257 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 21:00:46
September 19 2011 20:57 GMT
#1246
I´d love to hear @UltraDavid ´s opinion, big Commentator and person in the Fighting Game scene, he´s a lawyer, has his own e-sport and Gaming Law Firm.


@UltraDavid: "Site of contract enforcement based on contract terms, choice, natl/local laws, type of contact w/ site, etc. So, hard to say heh"

Just a quick reply by him, so basicly everythign is speculating right now
RajaF
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada530 Posts
September 19 2011 20:57 GMT
#1247
On September 20 2011 05:53 Sqq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 05:52 Bellygareth wrote:
To make things clear for everyone: even if Stephano had signed a real contract binding under french law, he would still be able to break it fairly easily considering:
- it's customary to have a "trial period" in contracts
- the contract signed by stephano would probably have been a "short term contract" or duration limited contract
- Stephano had not even started to work for Col yet.

Even outside the trial period, the employee can break a "short term contract" or duration limited contract, if he can argue that he has a long term duration contract available (CDI). In that case he can be forced to work a minimum duration for the previous employer (for a maximum of 2 weeks and the actual time would be lower because he didn't work for Col at all).

So Stephano was free to change it under french law in my opinion.
Disclaimer: it's not a lawyer opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but I know how it works. Under french law, Col won't have any chance I would bet.



Thats the bits I've collected about the laws there aswell. It still a douche move by Stephano. And it makes the whole sc2 pro scene look like a big laugh.


Actually it makes the SC2 scene start to look like a real sport, since crap like this goes on at the highest levels of professional sport entertainment, unfortunately.
ellirc
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden3286 Posts
September 19 2011 20:57 GMT
#1248
On September 20 2011 05:56 SinTio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 05:52 Mijati wrote:
Complexity should have gone out of their way to make sure the contract is air tight and complied with French Law. They've had the contract for 18 days as they've said (although I'm sure there's been numerous revisions over that time), they've had plenty of time to check and make sure everything is legal, the fact that they didn't do this and the whole situation was able to come about seems to lie with them.

That being said Stephano and Mil went about this the whole wrong way, the fact they're ignoring emails to respond to complexity is outrageous and that by the sounds of it have persuaded Stephano to sign a contract with them when he wanted to go elsewhere without giving Complexity the chance to "fix" the contract.

I was delighted when I saw the announcement this morning as Stephano is a great player and getting to see him at things like MLG would have been great, it's just a shame that despite the contract being great for Stephano the whole deal has been messed up due to a few legal loop holes. Complexity really should have made sure of everything prior to this to prevent this from happened, but this whole thing has just been horrific from Stephano and Mil and they should take the blame for the drama, not complexity.


Somehow that's my biggest problem here. Stephano and coL had an agreement about the general terms of the contract. The contract itself may have been not "air tight", but that's fixable. Then Millenium comes in and goes "Hey your contract's kinda off, why don't you sign one with us". At least that's what I got out of this thread until now.

Feels kinda wrong...

You just hit the bullseye.
ARick
Profile Joined July 2011
17 Posts
September 19 2011 20:58 GMT
#1249
On September 20 2011 05:56 ImHuko wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 05:53 Sqq wrote:
On September 20 2011 05:52 Bellygareth wrote:
To make things clear for everyone: even if Stephano had signed a real contract binding under french law, he would still be able to break it fairly easily considering:
- it's customary to have a "trial period" in contracts
- the contract signed by stephano would probably have been a "short term contract" or duration limited contract
- Stephano had not even started to work for Col yet.

Even outside the trial period, the employee can break a "short term contract" or duration limited contract, if he can argue that he has a long term duration contract available (CDI). In that case he can be forced to work a minimum duration for the previous employer (for a maximum of 2 weeks and the actual time would be lower because he didn't work for Col at all).

So Stephano was free to change it under french law in my opinion.
Disclaimer: it's not a lawyer opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but I know how it works. Under french law, Col won't have any chance I would bet.



Thats the bits I've collected about the laws there aswell. It still a douche move by Stephano. And it makes the whole sc2 pro scene look like a big laugh.

Stephano is 17, he used to start every game by saying "PINK POWER RANGER GOGO!" or something like that. Calling him a douche because he is just a kid and doesn't understand the importance of everything yet is a bit rude. Stephano just plays the game, apparently he doesn't read any sites like TL or anything, he just enjoys the game. Everything all of a sudden has probably gotten way too involved for him, he just wants to play the game.

Stephano is 18
Snorkle
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1648 Posts
September 19 2011 20:58 GMT
#1250
On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.

This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".

As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them.


I think complexity cares more about the principle than the money.

And they have sued people before who have backed out of contracts.
http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/
AzurewinD
Profile Joined November 2010
United States569 Posts
September 19 2011 20:58 GMT
#1251
On September 20 2011 05:57 FaRess wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 05:55 AzurewinD wrote:
On September 20 2011 05:47 zhurai wrote:
On September 20 2011 05:46 ride wrote:
The Mill manager said that he couldn't answer to Col right now because he is streaming a showmatch between Lucifron and Hasuobs and cancelling the showmatch wouldn't be fair for these both platers who are not involved in this story.

For the "false contract" it means that in France a contract is very regulated. But Col's contract wasn't ok with some laws. So stephano couldn't "work" with this contract since it is not a legal one.

doesn't mean it's a "false contract".
unless this manager doesn't know what "false" actually means.



http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267130&currentpage=50#1000

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267130&currentpage=54#1073


So according to the translations of the Millenium stream provided by random posters in this thread (DISCLAIMER, prossibly dubious at best considering low post count).

The manger of Mil first claims coL never contacted them, but then admits they DID contact him, but can't spare the time to respond because he's busy casting a showmatch (EL OH EL WTF??), then says it's probably not worth responding to them anyway?

Finding it difficult to sympathize with Mil here so far.


I will talk for myself, what Llewellys said is he didn't get contacted when they signe stephano, it has nothing to do with the fact tha coL sended him an email tonight



Ok thank you for clearing that up. I'll edit my post.
"...I want more people to be in that state more often, to see things not through the limited and rigid mind or the fearful ego, but through a heart that loves to express and create" - Xiaonan "Glider" Sun
merz
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Sweden2760 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 21:00:29
September 19 2011 20:58 GMT
#1252
On September 20 2011 05:55 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea it would be to take legal action. Even if both organisations were in the same country the cost could be more than the yearly turnover of both organisations combined. Doing it internationally is simply not a real option.

This is without even considering the legal basis of the claim. I've taken a look at some esports contracts between large organisations (such as SK-Gaming) and their players and the contracts are full of major holes and flaws, to say the least. This is after they've recruited a legal firm to "take a look at it".

As such, I am 100% sure that CoL will not take any legal action, as it could very likely be the end of them.


It's not whether or not taking legal action would actually be beneficial in an econonmic manner. It's more like SOMEONE has to do it eventually because otherwise contracts will hold no importance If coL can take legal action without sinking themselves then I'd say go for it.

Also:

On September 20 2011 05:54 Holy_KR wrote:
"Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.

In addition, many spectators have doubted our willingness to follow through with legal proceedings (as I'm sure Millenium does). They need to study history more closely

http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/

Again, no decisions have been made but I don't think certain people involved with this situation are taking it seriously enough."

-Jason Lake

Regardless if what coL says about Stephano is true, then it's ridiculous how much this is blowing up cause of one selfish player


Thank fuck for that. If people would just please read this and understand that "But French law says X!" doesn't necessarily mean shit.
Winners never quit, quitters never win.
sixfour
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
England11061 Posts
September 19 2011 20:58 GMT
#1253
On September 20 2011 05:54 Holy_KR wrote:
"Everyone is assuming French law is on Millennium's side (and it may be) but don't jump to conclusions. This was a contractor contract, NOT an employment contract. The jurisdiction was Texas, USA and France has treaties that cover such international contracts. We are still investigating this, but people should not write off our situation just yet.


basically this, if they're signing under the jurisdiction of texan law what happens in french law should mean diddly squat
p: stats, horang2, free, jangbi z: soulkey, zero, shine, hydra t: leta, hiya, sea
wats0n
Profile Joined July 2011
United States509 Posts
September 19 2011 20:59 GMT
#1254
A contract doesn't have to uphold to the standards of every country in the world.

A french contract might not uphold to the standards of the U.S. but that doesn't make it invalid.

Stephano signed a legal U.S. contract (presumably) with a U.S. team and even a French court would uphold that he submitted to the customs of that country and is not protected by competing laws even if they are that of his own country.
sixfour
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
England11061 Posts
September 19 2011 20:59 GMT
#1255
On September 20 2011 05:56 ImHuko wrote:

Stephano is 17


newsflash - the rest of the world has the month and day the correct way round in dates
p: stats, horang2, free, jangbi z: soulkey, zero, shine, hydra t: leta, hiya, sea
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 21:00:50
September 19 2011 20:59 GMT
#1256
The total number of days between Friday, March 12th, 1993 and Monday, September 19th, 2011 is 6,765 days.

This is equal to exactly 18 years, 6 months, and 7 days.

On September 20 2011 05:59 sixfour wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 05:56 ImHuko wrote:

Stephano is 17


newsflash - the rest of the world has the month and day the correct way round in dates


Something is correct because I do it and someone else doesn't.
Good argument.
if (post == "stupid") { document.getElementById('post').style.display = 'none'; }
Bellygareth
Profile Joined October 2010
France512 Posts
September 19 2011 20:59 GMT
#1257
On September 20 2011 05:55 FaRess wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 05:52 Bellygareth wrote:
To make things clear for everyone: even if Stephano had signed a real contract binding under french law, he would still be able to break it fairly easily considering:
- it's customary to have a "trial period" in contracts
- the contract signed by stephano would probably have been a "short term contract" or duration limited contract
- Stephano had not even started to work for Col yet.

Even outside the trial period, the employee can break a "short term contract" or duration limited contract, if he can argue that he has a long term duration contract available (CDI). In that case he can be forced to work a minimum duration for the previous employer (for a maximum of 2 weeks and the actual time would be lower because he didn't work for Col at all).

So Stephano was free to change it under french law in my opinion.
Disclaimer: it's not a lawyer opinion so take it with a grain of salt, but I know how it works. Under french law, Col won't have any chance I would bet.




You're just wrong about the trial period, it's clearly not mandatory in a contract


I never claimed it was mandatory. I said it was usual or customary.

And I argued about breaking a CDD for a CDI. It's black and white there : http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F40.xhtml. On a french government website.
lvent
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States140 Posts
September 19 2011 20:59 GMT
#1258
On September 20 2011 05:52 Sleight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 05:51 P0ckets wrote:
Even though it may be null in France it isn't in the US, and Complexity can sue then in a US court. Then it gets all crazy because of where it holds validity and if Complexity shows and if Millenium appears or not. Can get super nasty and make life hard for Millennium personal and players in the US, where some major tournaments taker place.


This is truth. Please read this. This is what will happen. Stephano and all of Millenium will NOT be able to go to IPL/NASL/etc...



Say a court in florida(i believe this is where complexity is based out apologies if wrong) rules in favor of Complexity and says Millennium corp(or whatever) owes them x amount of $. The money still must come from Millennium, the court can not prevent the gamers who are "contracted" for Millennium to play in a tournament/event. I dont know this as fact but I am pretty sure when Puma won the Nasl, the money was in a check made to his real name and not TSL.

As long as the checks payable are made to the players and not the team corporation I dont see how it will make it difficult. Again as I mentioned if the Event/Tournament directors start denying people that will change the ball game.
DertoQq
Profile Joined October 2010
France906 Posts
September 19 2011 21:00 GMT
#1259
On September 20 2011 05:52 Charger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 05:43 Sirael wrote:
this whole stepping back after x days from an employment contract in france thing is simply wrong

source (in german, from a law office): http://www.franzoesisches-arbeitsrecht.de/


Thank you, finally a source of some sort. The clause about an employee/employer breaking a contract is only viable if it's included in the contract in the first place. There is no inherent clause that allows for someone to just get out of an otherwise normal contract before the time is up or both parties mutually dissolve the contract.

I had a feeling all of the 'In France, you can break a contract whenever you want for whatever reason you want as long as it's under 30 days' talk was bullshit but I remained open minded in case it was in fact true.


well, it has to be in the contract, this is true, but if there isn't something about this in the contract, then the contract isn't legal.

And from what i'm hearing on the millenium stream, A LOT of things were missing from the contract.

But still, I personally think this is stupid from mille even if they are legaly right, that's bad for everyone.
"i've made some empty promises in my life, but hands down that was the most generous" - Michael Scott
schreddertt
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany102 Posts
September 19 2011 21:00 GMT
#1260
I don't understand why you would want to stay with Millenium, they promised ToD the same they are now claiming to give Stephano (travelling etc) but ToD explicitely said that they did not even want to send him to Korea.
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