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On September 20 2011 20:31 Supcraft.Rez wrote:
So let me get this straight about Millenium.
1. First they say there were "disorienting methods" used by coL to acquire Stephano, then they take it back.
2. First they say they would send Stephano to international tournaments, then they take it back.
3. They decide to not answer mails from coL altogether.
4. They say coL are trying to influence an 18 year-old, while giving him their own "advice", which includes ignoring coL completely (instead of, say, figure out the 'loopholes' with them?).
5. They send out a couple of harsh statements to the public and then say they don't "plan on explaining Millenium’s reasoning to the Internet community".
Even if they're following the law and doing everything in a clean manner, they've come off as unprofessional e-sports thugs. It's become obvious that Mill can't afford to top coL's offers and are therefore trying to muscle themselves out of the situation in order to keep Stephano on their side.
Mill should really learn more from TL and less from Coach Lee.
What are you talking about ? troll ?
User was warned for this post
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On September 20 2011 20:34 T0fuuu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 19:34 Ylrahc wrote:
7) Stephano signs with Millenium, Internet drama follows.
What coL did was at best not very classy.[b] They tried to poach Stephano. Why do you think they never directly contacted Millenium before signing Stephano : because they thought they would have a better chance signing it doing so. [/b Lol? how can you poach a player that isnt signed and is in open negotiations with more than 2 teams? If millenium is willing to give counteroffers to complexity then its pretty obvious it was a bidding war and one that col. won. Why should they notify millenium that they have signed a player? It would be like rubbing it in their face and is almost brag like. You cant even have a better chance of signing if its signed? If over the course of 18 days or however long stephano was a free agent millenium couldnt give him a competitive deal then its bad business on their end.
You didn't read points 1 to 6 very closely did you. After Stephano was in open discussion with a lot of teams, he declined them all and promised Millenium he would spend another year with them. Thus the open negociations were finished. There is nothing wrong with coL trying to hire Stephano after this point, but they should have done it by negociating with Stephano AND Millenium. (then again, only speaking about what is morally right here, as I said before it has nothing to do with the law, as noone here is in the position to know what was legal and what wasn't in this story)
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Lawyers, lawyers everywhere ...
Being able to read wikipedia or/and use google doesn't make you lawyer. Beside, no one here know what is inside this contract.
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On September 20 2011 20:39 Harissa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 20:31 Supcraft.Rez wrote:
So let me get this straight about Millenium.
1. First they say there were "disorienting methods" used by coL to acquire Stephano, then they take it back.
2. First they say they would send Stephano to international tournaments, then they take it back.
3. They decide to not answer mails from coL altogether.
4. They say coL are trying to influence an 18 year-old, while giving him their own "advice", which includes ignoring coL completely (instead of, say, figure out the 'loopholes' with them?).
5. They send out a couple of harsh statements to the public and then say they don't "plan on explaining Millenium’s reasoning to the Internet community".
Even if they're following the law and doing everything in a clean manner, they've come off as unprofessional e-sports thugs. It's become obvious that Mill can't afford to top coL's offers and are therefore trying to muscle themselves out of the situation in order to keep Stephano on their side.
Mill should really learn more from TL and less from Coach Lee. What are you talking about ? troll ?
I daresay that's not the best use of your first post; blatantly ignoring the mod note at the top of the page.
I think this whole issue is a little sad, and just one more blemish eSports will have to make-up over to be properly accepted in the "real world".
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On September 20 2011 20:31 Supcraft.Rez wrote:
So let me get this straight about Millenium.
1. First they say there were "disorienting methods" used by coL to acquire Stephano, then they take it back.
2. First they say they would send Stephano to international tournaments, then they take it back.
3. They decide to not answer mails from coL altogether.
4. They say coL are trying to influence an 18 year-old, while giving him their own "advice", which includes ignoring coL completely (instead of, say, figure out the 'loopholes' with them?).
5. They send out a couple of harsh statements to the public and then say they don't "plan on explaining Millenium’s reasoning to the Internet community".
Even if they're following the law and doing everything in a clean manner, they've come off as unprofessional e-sports thugs. It's become obvious that Mill can't afford to top coL's offers and are therefore trying to muscle themselves out of the situation in order to keep Stephano on their side.
Mill should really learn more from TL and less from Coach Lee.
I have to agree, Millenium does not give a good idea of french esports and France in general, I am very disappointed by this behaviour... They are the ones who actually influenced a young player to do the wrong choice... He should have realized that it's not with Millenium that he's gonna compete in serious events... I said "Stefano GL for MLG" in the "Stefano to coL" thread... Well now I just have to wish you GL in the next Go4SC2 cups I guess.... Sad...
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On September 20 2011 20:59 SolidMustard wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 20:31 Supcraft.Rez wrote:
So let me get this straight about Millenium.
1. First they say there were "disorienting methods" used by coL to acquire Stephano, then they take it back.
2. First they say they would send Stephano to international tournaments, then they take it back.
3. They decide to not answer mails from coL altogether.
4. They say coL are trying to influence an 18 year-old, while giving him their own "advice", which includes ignoring coL completely (instead of, say, figure out the 'loopholes' with them?).
5. They send out a couple of harsh statements to the public and then say they don't "plan on explaining Millenium’s reasoning to the Internet community".
Even if they're following the law and doing everything in a clean manner, they've come off as unprofessional e-sports thugs. It's become obvious that Mill can't afford to top coL's offers and are therefore trying to muscle themselves out of the situation in order to keep Stephano on their side.
Mill should really learn more from TL and less from Coach Lee. I have to agree, Millenium does not give a good idea of french esports and France in general, I am very disappointed by this behaviour... They are the ones who actually influenced a young player to do the wrong choice... He should have realized that it's not with Millenium that he's gonna compete in serious events... I said "Stefano GL for MLG" in the "Stefano to coL" thread... Well now I just have to wish you GL in the next Go4SC2 cups I guess.... Sad...
A lot of french agree with this, but Millenium just seems to doesnt care... Very sad
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Esports drama! If you're not confused, you probably have not truly understood the situation.
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This imo, looks really shady from milenniums part and i don't like that they are trying to play some victim role full of french patriotism and the evil america stealing our players nonsense.
Am i as a swede less proud of Thorzain because he is in a german team? Hell no.
Naniwa, Sjow for being in a UK team? Not at all.
I don't see how the teams nationality would matter in the slightest.
Why don't they just explain everything in detail instead of doing this? Complexity looks far better in this i gotta say.
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The person that comes off looking bad here is stephano.
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On a completely different note, this kind of drama is usually what happens when a sport hits the big time.
Congratulations, Starcraft 2! You're in the big time now. Hope both parties can sort this amicably, either with a cash settlement or a gentlemen's agreement.
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On September 20 2011 20:32 atavus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 20:31 Supcraft.Rez wrote:
So let me get this straight about Millenium.
1. First they say there were "disorienting methods" used by coL to acquire Stephano, then they take it back.
2. First they say they would send Stephano to international tournaments, then they take it back.
3. They decide to not answer mails from coL altogether.
4. They say coL are trying to influence an 18 year-old, while giving him their own "advice", which includes ignoring coL completely (instead of, say, figure out the 'loopholes' with them?).
5. They send out a couple of harsh statements to the public and then say they don't "plan on explaining Millenium’s reasoning to the Internet community".
Even if they're following the law and doing everything in a clean manner, they've come off as unprofessional e-sports thugs. It's become obvious that Mill can't afford to top coL's offers and are therefore trying to muscle themselves out of the situation in order to keep Stephano on their side.
Mill should really learn more from TL and less from Coach Lee. Do you have any proof of that ?
Proof of what?
Proof of Mill not being able to top coL's offer?
Do you really think they would go through this shitstorm if they could just make a counteroffer?
-_-
Edit: To the point, no, it is speculation. But think about it, seriously.
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On September 20 2011 19:46 Apom wrote:
The last issue here is enforceability. If the contract is deemed legal by the Texan judge (which is very likely), and the French judge deems it an illegal employment contract (which is also very likely), then the contract will be null on French soil. What can be done if, and when, Stephano sets foot in the US, is another matter.
Since you seem to be one of the very few here with a basic idea what they are talking about (sorry about the borderline insult, but wtf why does everyone feels he is qualified to talk legal when obviously 99% of the users here have never, ever studied law in the details required to comprehend the situation in questions?):
Do you know if there are any bilateral agreements between France and the US regarding the enforcement of employment contracts? Because, even though I agree with you on the principal matter, if such agreements exist, those could possibly overrule the fact that French courts would have to apply French Law. In other words, if a bilateral agreement states that France has to enforce certain (!) US-court-decisions, then it doesn't matter at all if the contract violates French employment Law. All that the French court was allowed to verify in this case would be if the US decision is indeed a valid one (not forged/etc.).
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On September 20 2011 20:41 Ylrahc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 20:34 T0fuuu wrote:On September 20 2011 19:34 Ylrahc wrote:
7) Stephano signs with Millenium, Internet drama follows.
What coL did was at best not very classy.[b] They tried to poach Stephano. Why do you think they never directly contacted Millenium before signing Stephano : because they thought they would have a better chance signing it doing so. [/b Lol? how can you poach a player that isnt signed and is in open negotiations with more than 2 teams? If millenium is willing to give counteroffers to complexity then its pretty obvious it was a bidding war and one that col. won. Why should they notify millenium that they have signed a player? It would be like rubbing it in their face and is almost brag like. You cant even have a better chance of signing if its signed? If over the course of 18 days or however long stephano was a free agent millenium couldnt give him a competitive deal then its bad business on their end. You didn't read points 1 to 6 very closely did you. After Stephano was in open discussion with a lot of teams, he declined them all and promised Millenium he would spend another year with them. Thus the open negociations were finished. There is nothing wrong with coL trying to hire Stephano after this point, but they should have done it by negociating with Stephano AND Millenium. (then again, only speaking about what is morally right here, as I said before it has nothing to do with the law, as noone here is in the position to know what was legal and what wasn't in this story)
You are certainly on millenniums side but at least try to read what complexity has posted? Millennium were aware that complexity were still working with stephano and made counteroffers if so how were negotiations closed? Its not like they woke up at 3am and thought. OMG THEY STOLE OUR PLAYER, they obviously didnt bring everything they were willing to offer to stephano when they went to bed the night before col's announcement so it is their own fault. They then release their own announcement and make stephano sign another agreement to play with them. Call col, dishonest and using disorientating tactics (lol?) and drum up support for themselves by bragging about website hits and some nationalistic go french esports lines. There was no moral wrong for not talking with millenium.
If anything it is against players interests if teams get together over how much they should bid on a FREE AGENT, cos obviously it would turn into a reverse bidding war and just bad for players.
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On September 20 2011 19:42 Koorb wrote:
– There is indeed a signed legal document that binds Stephano and compLexity. Millenium's staff reviewed it, and told Stephano that there were loopholes in the contract, and that it didn’t comply with French labor law. Subsequently, Lewellys and Millenium's staff advised Stephano to ignore it, which he eventually did. When viewers asked what the loopholes were, he talked about one example, which was the lack of a mention of a probation period.
I'd just like to add something on this. Rest of this thread is just nonsense has we don't have any information on what has actually been signed, and how.
But i sure hope this loophole concerning a probation period is not the only one ...
Article L1242-10 du code du travail : La période d'essai doit être expressément prévue par le contrat. En son absence vous êtes réputé avoir été embauché sans période d'essai
Which in short says that if you want a probation period it has to be written in the contract. If not, there is none.
So there is no "lack" of a mention of a probation period.
That said people should wait and see and stop this useless bashing.
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On September 20 2011 18:01 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 17:56 Bobster wrote:On September 20 2011 17:54 alexlw92 wrote:
im confused. hypothetically, if this were to go to court, would it be french or american? if he's a french citizen (im assuming), and he signs a contract from an american corporation, does it follow american or french laws? The problem is that there aren't enough lawyers on Team Liquid to answer these simple questions. :p We just have to wait and see. On September 20 2011 17:56 Boonbag wrote:
lol hes 18 he isn't young wtf haha Uh, no. He's still a child, basically. Legally responsible, though. dude flash was signing contracts at 14 at 18 you're perfectly mature enough to handle your own shit
Ask any 18 year old how mature they are. Then ask them 10 years later how mature they were at 18. :p
Just trust me.
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Really hope coL gets Stephano and takes legal action
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On September 20 2011 21:22 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 19:46 Apom wrote:
The last issue here is enforceability. If the contract is deemed legal by the Texan judge (which is very likely), and the French judge deems it an illegal employment contract (which is also very likely), then the contract will be null on French soil. What can be done if, and when, Stephano sets foot in the US, is another matter. Since you seem to be one of the very few here with a basic idea what they are talking about (sorry about the borderline insult, but wtf why does everyone feels he is qualified to talk legal when obviously 99% of the users here have never, ever studied law in the details required to comprehend the situation in questions?): Do you know if there are any bilateral agreements between France and the US regarding the enforcement of employment contracts? Because, even though I agree with you on the principal matter, if such agreements exist, those could possibly overrule the fact that French courts would have to apply French Law. In other words, if a bilateral agreement states that France has to enforce certain (!) US-court-decisions, then it doesn't matter at all if the contract violates French employment Law. All that the French court was allowed to verify in this case would be if the US decision is indeed a valid one (not forged/etc.).
ROFL, dude you're the one who doesn't understand shit about law issues !
Stefano signed a contract with coL, in which the consequences of Stefano breaking it have to be stated, there's not gonna be any kind of conflict between french and US courts about this !
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When I red the letter from the "president" of millenium. I just saw a kid who explain why he wanted is toy back. This a such unprofessional way to deal with things. I agree the part of developping e-sport in france. But definitly the wrong way to do it.
For me this president does not have anything to do in this job.
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On September 20 2011 21:11 Dimon87 wrote:
This imo, looks really shady from milenniums part and i don't like that they are trying to play some victim role full of french patriotism and the evil america stealing our players nonsense.
From a biased french (obviously) : everyone read what he wants.
For you [M] is trying to play the victim, for me it's what Col is doing, making a lot of noise on the Web/TL, talking Big about sue; etc.
Col is saying that [M] doesn't even answer their mail : is it the right thing to answering quickly at 9pm after a day of work ? Or is it better to take some time to answer ?
(Oh and I don't says Mill is right, Col is the bad guy, and Stephano is a poor little children lost in the darkness of contract, in fact I don't care if Stephano plays for [M], Col, EG or IM, as long as he keep playing  )
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On September 20 2011 20:45 Myfsk wrote:
Lawyers, lawyers everywhere ...
Being able to read wikipedia or/and use google doesn't make you lawyer. Beside, no one here know what is inside this contract.
There are few things in this world which tilt me more than watching people on the TL forums try to perform legal analysis. As someone who works in the field, it's just painful to watch. I would caution anyone against making judgments or guessing at the legal ramifications in this situation, as the tangled litigation web is quite complex.
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EPT
