|
|
On September 20 2011 19:53 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 19:34 Horse...falcon wrote:On September 20 2011 19:25 JohnMatrix wrote:
"Wait what is Complexity guilty of?"
to don't talk to millenium about stephano's on the point of signing a contract in an another team ever
Imagine EG making the same shadow move to Huk, what would be your thoughts about that? That's the opposing party in your bidding war. Why the fuck would they be obligated to talk to them? If Millenium had no idea Complexity was bidding for Stephano then it's Stephano's fault for not informing them. I have no problem with what EG did with Huk or Puma. No law states that you HAVE to inform a rival that you are recruiting their employee. When I interview for another job I don't want the company interviewing me to call my current boss. At the end of the day you're running a business, not a daycare. Moan all you want but Complexity did nothing wrong. What I see here is this 1. Stephano fucked up. 2. Everyone's trying to cover Stephano/Millenium's ass by grasping for weakass excuses to deflect the blame to Complexity. That's funny, because all I see is people siding with the butthurt lawyer and demonizing the horrible french turncoats. 1. is correct though, but I'm not sure why anyone would expect some random naive 18 year old kid that's pretty damn good at starcraft to know what to do under the circumstances.
Don't sign a contract unless you understand it and plan to fulfill it. That isn't exactly rocket science - I certainly knew that much when I was 18.
|
... whenever people start talking about '3 am' as if it matters I get highly suspicious of their whole argument.
He made a bad call.
He then changed his mind.
He is young, he will learn from it ... is my take on it.
Also, at 18 you are an adult. Should be treated as such.
|
On September 20 2011 20:02 Tehs Tehklz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 19:53 hifriend wrote:On September 20 2011 19:34 Horse...falcon wrote:On September 20 2011 19:25 JohnMatrix wrote:
"Wait what is Complexity guilty of?"
to don't talk to millenium about stephano's on the point of signing a contract in an another team ever
Imagine EG making the same shadow move to Huk, what would be your thoughts about that? That's the opposing party in your bidding war. Why the fuck would they be obligated to talk to them? If Millenium had no idea Complexity was bidding for Stephano then it's Stephano's fault for not informing them. I have no problem with what EG did with Huk or Puma. No law states that you HAVE to inform a rival that you are recruiting their employee. When I interview for another job I don't want the company interviewing me to call my current boss. At the end of the day you're running a business, not a daycare. Moan all you want but Complexity did nothing wrong. What I see here is this 1. Stephano fucked up. 2. Everyone's trying to cover Stephano/Millenium's ass by grasping for weakass excuses to deflect the blame to Complexity. That's funny, because all I see is people siding with the butthurt lawyer and demonizing the horrible french turncoats. 1. is correct though, but I'm not sure why anyone would expect some random naive 18 year old kid that's pretty damn good at starcraft to know what to do under the circumstances. Don't sign a contract unless you understand it and plan to fulfill it. That isn't exactly rocket science - I certainly knew that much when I was 18.
It's so easy being right with hindsight. I know that i bought and did stuff i later regretted my first years out of school. He fucked up and later learned that he could back out of the contract and he did. If backing out was legal no one seems to know.
|
On September 20 2011 20:04 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 20:02 Tehs Tehklz wrote:On September 20 2011 19:53 hifriend wrote:On September 20 2011 19:34 Horse...falcon wrote:On September 20 2011 19:25 JohnMatrix wrote:
"Wait what is Complexity guilty of?"
to don't talk to millenium about stephano's on the point of signing a contract in an another team ever
Imagine EG making the same shadow move to Huk, what would be your thoughts about that? That's the opposing party in your bidding war. Why the fuck would they be obligated to talk to them? If Millenium had no idea Complexity was bidding for Stephano then it's Stephano's fault for not informing them. I have no problem with what EG did with Huk or Puma. No law states that you HAVE to inform a rival that you are recruiting their employee. When I interview for another job I don't want the company interviewing me to call my current boss. At the end of the day you're running a business, not a daycare. Moan all you want but Complexity did nothing wrong. What I see here is this 1. Stephano fucked up. 2. Everyone's trying to cover Stephano/Millenium's ass by grasping for weakass excuses to deflect the blame to Complexity. That's funny, because all I see is people siding with the butthurt lawyer and demonizing the horrible french turncoats. 1. is correct though, but I'm not sure why anyone would expect some random naive 18 year old kid that's pretty damn good at starcraft to know what to do under the circumstances. Don't sign a contract unless you understand it and plan to fulfill it. That isn't exactly rocket science - I certainly knew that much when I was 18. It's so easy being right with hindsight. I know that i bought and did stuff i later regretted my first years out of school. He fucked up and later learned that he could back out of the contract and he did. If backing out was legal no one seems to know.
It's probably legal in france and illegal in the US ... so.
|
If this whole thing blows over I'm happy to see him in Mill rather than coL, provided he gets similar financial support. Young people regret their decisions, sucks for coL but thats how it is. If they really want to take this to court i wish them GL.
|
You stated that Millenium wants to answer the mails of coL with a cold head but I don't think that Mister Page wrote the news with a cold head. That was very unprofessional for the director of the "biggest" French e-sport team.
|
Everydoby speaks here without any evidence about the drama.
- who has read the contract ?
- who has read the conversations between Mill/Stephano and Col/Stephano ?
- who is sure that both teams aren't liying about something ?
You should, guys, wait more informations before flamming without anything sure to say about that...
|
On September 20 2011 19:53 hifriend wrote:
I'm not sure why anyone would expect some random naive 18 year old kid that's pretty damn good at starcraft to know what to do under the circumstances.
I would. Well, I wouldn't I'd expect him to wait until morning. I'd expect him to talk to friend or family or someone with worldly experience who might have an idea of the next step.
I appreciate that he's a naive teenager with limited real world experience, and I don't blame him for doing what he did when an attractive opportunity was dangled in front of him in the wee hours of the morning. However a contract's a contract at the end of the day, and his signature is representative of the fact that he has read, understood, acknowledged and accepted every single article in that contract. You can't just handwave it away as naivity. If he didn't do those four things, he shouldn't have signed the contract, and, well, now he knows that for future reference at least I guess.
Hopefully this all gets resolved cleanly though, fingers crossed.
|
The most important thing is that he continues to play and be the awesome Zerg the fans like him about.
This, and that it all gets solved quickly and without any drama.
|
On September 20 2011 19:18 cost2010 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 17:57 m0ck wrote:
A bit of water for the fire in the belly of the 'Stephano is killing eports' crowd.
Think about the discrepancy between the actors in power, knowledge and experience. Both in the particular and in the general. Stephano is 18 years old, just out of high school. He's a french speaker first, and knows english as a secondary language. After recent succes in SC2, he's contacted by a host of teams trying to sign 'the next big thing'.
He's now put in a situation where he has to negotiate his first professional contract by himself. This contract is negotiated in english and written into an english language contract. The team trying to hire him is represented by a lawyer. He is not so himself. Any questions he has are explained to him by representatives of the team trying to hire him. Negotiation happens over the internet with Stephano being in france/tunesia and the team trying to hire him in USA. The signing of the contract happens through a specialized internet-site.
So, who has the power? True, Stephano has the power of being the one with the talent. He decides where to take it. But who has experience with negotiating a contract? Who has the legal understanding of the implications of the contract? Who can understand the legalese of a contract? Who is a native speaker of the language of the contract and of the negotiation? Who has/is the lawyer?
...
nicely written post but I have to disagree with your conclusions... It is not hard to get legal advice and when you consider signing a contract with a monetary worth in the five-six figures the expense of consulting an attorney should almost always be justified. Lawyers are not *that* expensive and having them read over the document and give you advice on its terms takes a few hours - not remotely comparable to the cost of having them fight on your behalf in court. Especially if the contract is written in a foreign language and placed in a foreign jurisdiction (Texas, US) that you have no experience with whatsoever (civil law vs common law) you should realize the limits of your abilities and buy independent counsel. "he's only 18, how is he supposed to know that he knows nothing about international employment/contract law?" Even at age 18 you tend to have parents, older brothers & sisters, godparents, or other relatives that you can trust and that are likely to have a few decades more experience in business dealings than you do. If anyone has the responsibility to introduce you to the evil realities of adult life, it's them.
I agree that Stephano (and players in general) really should have a lawyer involved in signing a contract as a professional player, but I don't think it's quite as easy as that. Though some are blessed with a network/family with experience with business and law, certainly that doesn't go for everyone.Taking the "lawyer-step" can be quite daunting. And expensive.
Even more so, as far as I can tell you'll need a lot of specialized knowledge. Knowledge I think you'll be lucky to find in "the lawyer round the corner". It's not really clear at this point, not to complexity either it seems, but it appears to be necessary to get legal representation knowledgeable of labor/contract law in your own country, internationally and possibly even about american law.
Where do you find such knowledge, and how many months of salary will it cost you to get the help that will secure a contract not only protecting the interests of the team?
|
On September 20 2011 20:02 Tehs Tehklz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 19:53 hifriend wrote:On September 20 2011 19:34 Horse...falcon wrote:On September 20 2011 19:25 JohnMatrix wrote:
"Wait what is Complexity guilty of?"
to don't talk to millenium about stephano's on the point of signing a contract in an another team ever
Imagine EG making the same shadow move to Huk, what would be your thoughts about that? That's the opposing party in your bidding war. Why the fuck would they be obligated to talk to them? If Millenium had no idea Complexity was bidding for Stephano then it's Stephano's fault for not informing them. I have no problem with what EG did with Huk or Puma. No law states that you HAVE to inform a rival that you are recruiting their employee. When I interview for another job I don't want the company interviewing me to call my current boss. At the end of the day you're running a business, not a daycare. Moan all you want but Complexity did nothing wrong. What I see here is this 1. Stephano fucked up. 2. Everyone's trying to cover Stephano/Millenium's ass by grasping for weakass excuses to deflect the blame to Complexity. That's funny, because all I see is people siding with the butthurt lawyer and demonizing the horrible french turncoats. 1. is correct though, but I'm not sure why anyone would expect some random naive 18 year old kid that's pretty damn good at starcraft to know what to do under the circumstances. Don't sign a contract unless you understand it and plan to fulfill it. That isn't exactly rocket science - I certainly knew that much when I was 18.
So true, at 18 i may not of been very wise but i knew that if i did not understand something i did not go through with it. You even learn that as a child, someone offers you a ride home after you get out of school and you do not know them all that well you dont go home with them xp.
And to people say col forced him to stephano with there dirty business practices, where they holding his family hostage tell he signed. If there was something that was unfair like some people are trying to make the contract out to be or like other have said stephano did not understand the contract he could of said " I will get back to you after i had some time think about it." If some company sends me a contract in spanish with me only having a basic grasp on the language i am not going to sign it and hope for the best.
|
Well, I suppose we don't know all the details, but if he DID sign a contract and then pulled out he's in trouble and it's only his own fault. 18 years might be young, but it's old enough to know that signing a contract is a really serious deal and shouldn't be done lightly.
|
so if they did go to court about this, which country's law is stephano going to be tried under o.o
|
So let me get this straight about Millenium.
1. First they say there were "disorienting methods" used by coL to acquire Stephano, then they take it back.
2. First they say they would send Stephano to international tournaments, then they take it back.
3. They decide to not answer mails from coL altogether.
4. They say coL are trying to influence an 18 year-old, while giving him their own "advice", which includes ignoring coL completely (instead of, say, figure out the 'loopholes' with them?).
5. They send out a couple of harsh statements to the public and then say they don't "plan on explaining Millenium’s reasoning to the Internet community".
Even if they're following the law and doing everything in a clean manner, they've come off as unprofessional e-sports thugs. It's become obvious that Mill can't afford to top coL's offers and are therefore trying to muscle themselves out of the situation in order to keep Stephano on their side.
Mill should really learn more from TL and less from Coach Lee.
|
If anything, it sounds like Millennium "disoriented" Stephano with that "long discussion" which made him change his mind. I doubt complexity will continue pursuing Stephano as a player if he wants to play for Millennium since if he's unhappy with where he is he won't get good results, I think there's gonna be legal drama.
Also, what is wrong with the Millennium management (assuming all facts are true). You'd think somewhere in that long discussion the question "did you sign a contract with them yet?" would've come out before they hand him another contract. And if they had him sign the second contract without informing him of all the possible repercussions then that's even worse.
|
On September 20 2011 20:31 Supcraft.Rez wrote:
So let me get this straight about Millenium.
1. First they say there were "disorienting methods" used by coL to acquire Stephano, then they take it back.
2. First they say they would send Stephano to international tournaments, then they take it back.
3. They decide to not answer mails from coL altogether.
4. They say coL are trying to influence an 18 year-old, while giving him their own "advice", which includes ignoring coL completely (instead of, say, figure out the 'loopholes' with them?).
5. They send out a couple of harsh statements to the public and then say they don't "plan on explaining Millenium’s reasoning to the Internet community".
Even if they're following the law and doing everything in a clean manner, they've come off as unprofessional e-sports thugs. It's become obvious that Mill can't afford to top coL's offers and are therefore trying to muscle themselves out of the situation in order to keep Stephano on their side.
Mill should really learn more from TL and less from Coach Lee.
Do you have any proof of that ?
|
On September 20 2011 19:34 Ylrahc wrote:
7) Stephano signs with Millenium, Internet drama follows.
What coL did was at best not very classy.[b] They tried to poach Stephano. Why do you think they never directly contacted Millenium before signing Stephano : because they thought they would have a better chance signing it doing so. [/b
Lol? how can you poach a player that isnt signed and is in open negotiations with more than 2 teams? If millenium is willing to give counteroffers to complexity then its pretty obvious it was a bidding war and one that col. won. Why should they notify millenium that they have signed a player? It would be like rubbing it in their face and is almost brag like. You cant even have a better chance of signing if its signed? If over the course of 18 days or however long stephano was a free agent millenium couldnt give him a competitive deal then its bad business on their end.
|
from the the statements of millennium and complexity it seems that they're acting pretty dirty
,on the surface millennium sounds pretty shady, if they wanted his contract after he signed complexity
they should've talked to them,still we don't know all the details and
this is only an 18 old kid who probably haven't been anywhere aside school, it seems like he's being manipulated, I hope him the best.
|
On September 20 2011 20:08 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 20:04 karpo wrote:On September 20 2011 20:02 Tehs Tehklz wrote:On September 20 2011 19:53 hifriend wrote:On September 20 2011 19:34 Horse...falcon wrote:On September 20 2011 19:25 JohnMatrix wrote:
"Wait what is Complexity guilty of?"
to don't talk to millenium about stephano's on the point of signing a contract in an another team ever
Imagine EG making the same shadow move to Huk, what would be your thoughts about that? That's the opposing party in your bidding war. Why the fuck would they be obligated to talk to them? If Millenium had no idea Complexity was bidding for Stephano then it's Stephano's fault for not informing them. I have no problem with what EG did with Huk or Puma. No law states that you HAVE to inform a rival that you are recruiting their employee. When I interview for another job I don't want the company interviewing me to call my current boss. At the end of the day you're running a business, not a daycare. Moan all you want but Complexity did nothing wrong. What I see here is this 1. Stephano fucked up. 2. Everyone's trying to cover Stephano/Millenium's ass by grasping for weakass excuses to deflect the blame to Complexity. That's funny, because all I see is people siding with the butthurt lawyer and demonizing the horrible french turncoats. 1. is correct though, but I'm not sure why anyone would expect some random naive 18 year old kid that's pretty damn good at starcraft to know what to do under the circumstances. Don't sign a contract unless you understand it and plan to fulfill it. That isn't exactly rocket science - I certainly knew that much when I was 18. It's so easy being right with hindsight. I know that i bought and did stuff i later regretted my first years out of school. He fucked up and later learned that he could back out of the contract and he did. If backing out was legal no one seems to know. It's probably legal in france and illegal in the US ... so.
I'm maybe wrong, but I rather think : It's probably legal for a french citizen, and illegal for an US citizen. It was coL's job to make sure that the contract respected french law.
Because of the mistake they made, coL probably can't sue Stephano.
|
On September 20 2011 20:30 Eradicate wrote:
so if they did go to court about this, which country's law is stephano going to be tried under o.o
If anything french. But if Milleniums statement on previous page (or two back) is true then the contract is void in accordance with french laws.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
