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On September 20 2011 18:55 MasterReY wrote:
If Millenium directly said the contract is officially not valid then i apologize, but please provide source for that.
Millenium manager said it yesterday on the Millenium TV stream. He pretty much said something like "the contract was meaningless/useless/garbage" "I don't even know if you can call that a 'contract'"
Now, it doesn't mean it is true, but he said it.
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On September 20 2011 18:57 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 18:45 Brotocol wrote:On September 20 2011 18:42 karpo wrote:On September 20 2011 18:39 Brotocol wrote:On September 20 2011 18:26 Paladia wrote:
These kinds of legal threats on the internet a few hours after the dispute arises, are highly unprofessional.
They signed a contract with an 18-year old at 3 AM, in the middle of night. The next morning, the 18 year-old wakes up and realizes that perhaps it isn't such a good idea to quit med school and move to a different country. A mistake by him for sure, and poorly done, as he tries to back out of it.
Any reasonable person would cut the guy some slack, nor would they even let an 18-year old sign a contract at 3 AM which isn't even in his own language. CoL hasn't lost anything or invested anything in Stephano, yet they immediately decide to start legal threats over the Internet. Not because there is anything to gain from it but just in an attempt to show power.
While it is poorly done by Stephano for sure, one could certainly think that a professional esports organisation would be able to handle this better. They should just have stated "Stephano decided to stay with Millenium instead" and handled the contract issues with Millenium. There is no reason to start an internet flame war over it. Legal issues should be handled with care and discreetly, not over twitter.
You don't see General Electric, Manchested United or any other professional company post legal threats on forums or on Twitter. This is despite the fact that they likely have different disputes every day. All in all, everyone just looks like an amateur in this case. I would certainly not do business with either CoL or Stephano, as they have both showcased that they are unable to handle this professionally. This is quite a wishy washy post, where you take the convenient route of blaming all the parties involved, so that you appear to be correct. I strongly disagree with your approach of "blame everyone and act like a beacon of pacifism/wisdom," because most likely, one of the sides is a victim in the matter. The evidence suggests that Stephano invited the bidding war, and was indeed interested enough to sign a contract after weeks of negotiation. Whether he was misled or not is another story, but frankly, you're not authoritative enough to dismiss the dispute as "amateurs" on both sides. What evidence? The PR statements from two competing teams? Have you seen the contract, have you seen conversations between any of the affected parties? No? Then stop using that word. What the guy is saying is that it would have been better if Complexity and Millennium did this between themselves instead of plastering it all over teamliquid and even responding to individual reddit threads. It's hard to take any company that use twitter and reddit to convey points about a ongoing issue seriously. - The different stories both acknowledge the bidding war. That's evidence enough for the point made. - Public relations involve a public. "They should've kept it among themselves" - Why? Who are you to say that? Transparency is generally a good thing. Why does their PR policy even matter to you, anyway? As far as I can tell, you're just using it as a crutch so you can find something to blame both sides for. Either side choosing to express themselves where they see fit has NOTHING to do with the verdict. I responded to you because you complained when someone said that posting threats of legal action just a day after something like this doesn't look professional. And i still think it doesn't. There's a difference between transparency and what we have here. What we have is more of a "he said, she said" than anything else. Keeping it to themselves would have probably turned out in a couple of different ways, all better than having the fanbase shittalk both parties and making up all kinds of stupid shit based on nothing. Would have looked alot more professional if there was a post in a week or two about Stephano being released from Complexity and Complexity suing Millenium OR Stephano staying in Millennium due to backing out of the Complexity contract based on french laws. Now we've had 3-4 threads with bashing, idiotic suggestions of bans and people making up all kinds of stupid stories.
You're complaining about "bashing," while defending a post that just pops in, bashes all the parties involved, and blinks out.
Perish the thought that the involved parties express themselves on an ongoing matter.
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On September 20 2011 18:51 Nyct0 wrote:
Can people stop posting about how stephano signed a contract early morning(later night) in a foreign language to him. It's been clearly said enough times, stephano has had multiple versions of the contract, over the last few weeks. It wasn't some pressure thing forced onto him at 3 in the morning.
Also there is nothing 'sneaky' about approaching a player (regardless of sport) and talking to them about what they are doing after their contract expires. I don't know how many of you follow sport, but if a players contract is known to run out at the end of the season, they are offered new contracts months before(sometimes longer) theirs runs out. Mill didn't offer stephano a contract that was worth him accepting, so once his original had ran out (if he was even under contract before...) col got him to sign theirs.
There was nothing sneaky or wrong done by complexity, some people are so ignorant it's unreal. They aren't some backdoor organization that do things on the sly.
Stephano took advantage of a good situation for him, however he did it wrong. From reading everything it sounds like Mill are completely in the wrong, and it wouldn't supprise me if thing would come back to haunt them in the future, i mean, who wants to associate with an organization that basically lie/steal?(this is pretty much what they've done, nothing you can say can actually argue against that)
I don't know how you can said that Mill lie/steal when we still don't know if the contract signed is valid (like Complexity says) or if it violates laws and is invalid (as Mill seem to think).
If the contract is valid, then yes they stole a player. If it is invalid then they just explained that to Stephano and provided him with a valid contract.
To be clear. I don't prefer anyone in this, just so tired of people claming alot of stuff when there's still little information and no clear answer on contract validity.
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doesn't a new contract become nullified if there is an already existing contract?
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On September 20 2011 18:26 Paladia wrote:
These kinds of legal threats on the internet a few hours after the dispute arises, are highly unprofessional.
They signed a contract with an 18-year old at 3 AM, in the middle of night. The next morning, the 18 year-old wakes up and realizes that perhaps it isn't such a good idea to quit med school and move to a different country. A mistake by him for sure, and poorly done, as he tries to back out of it.
Any reasonable person would cut the guy some slack, nor would they even let an 18-year old sign a contract at 3 AM which isn't even in his own language. CoL hasn't lost anything or invested anything in Stephano, yet they immediately decide to start legal threats over the Internet. Not because there is anything to gain from it but just in an attempt to show power.
While it is poorly done by Stephano for sure, one could certainly think that a professional esports organisation would be able to handle this better. They should just have stated "Stephano decided to stay with Millenium instead" and handled the contract issues with Millenium. There is no reason to start an internet flame war over it. Legal issues should be handled with care and discreetly, not over twitter.
You don't see General Electric, Manchested United or any other professional company post legal threats on forums or on Twitter. This is despite the fact that they likely have different disputes every day. All in all, everyone just looks like an amateur in this case. I would certainly not do business with either CoL or Stephano, as they have both showcased that they are unable to handle this professionally.
Part of the problem with professionalism in this situation is that unlike in professional sports, there isn't an established way of dealing with an issue like this. While contractual problems between multiple teams and players (Fnatic/SK?) have occurred, to say that those were handled without bad blood and drama would be a lie of epic proportions.
With the gigantic bandwagon that is the internet, compLexity has a need to get their story into the public ASAP, which includes them saying they won't take this laying down, which is exactly what they mean when they say they are looking into legal options. Note: they said they are looking into legal options, it was not a "WE'RE GONNA SUE YOU SON!" post. If they find that they can get what they want by suing Millennium, then they will, and if that won't help them, they won't. That paragraph in coL's response was heavily dedicated to holding up the legitimacy of contracts in eSports, something I am sure we all support.
So, to end this, professional gaming is exploding right now, and these are some of the growing pains we are still going through as our home grown industry turns into something legitimate. I wish everything were settled in a perfect manner with nobody losing face or having their careers tarnished, but I at least hope that both players and teams will learn from this and straighten out their contracts.
Or Millennium could just win and organizations could start avoiding French players like the plague, but that will only hurt eSports.
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On September 20 2011 18:57 JohnMatrix wrote:
Like i previously said:
coL annoucment was supposed to be made in on week and not immediately after the contract has been signed according to his moderator on his justintv stream. drama begun with this too quick announcment by coL
That still doesn't change anything. The contract was signed and coL rightfully believed Stephano was on their team. Then he changed his mind and stayed with Mill. The story being posted doesn't change anything.
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French laws are much less rigid and more about common sense than US laws.
Anyone with common sense would agree that breaking a contract 24 hours after signing it doesn't harm any of the actors involved.
If I sign a contract in France where I hire a guy to mow my lawn in exchange for 1 Million €, and I don't pay up, the guy can try to sue me all he wants, but at most I'll just have to pay him 25€ + legal fees and most likely this won't even ever go to court.
In this case, the contract has obvious flaws. The fact that stephano might not have understood it entirely (language, young age, time of signature...), the fact that it has appearantly no withdrawal period (is that how you say it ?) etc...
The problem here is that this is apparantly a US contract by US laws and I guess we'll just have to wait and see what will happen.
Americans are all upset about this because in their culture, a contract is a 100% binding agreement. French people don't care as much of what stephano did because in french culture, there are usually a lot of ways to break a contract, and contracts who don't allow this are usually illegal (by frenchlaws).
I personally think that Millenium's move is not very classy and/or professional.
I don't mind much for Stephano's action because the amounts of money involved can lead to difficult situation for an 18 year old (think back how mature you guys were when you were 18).
I can't help but feel that coL got what they deserved for blatently going behind Mill's back (even though Mill probably were aware of the situation, coL didn't negociate with them directly) and pressuring an 18 year old player into signing a contract. I say "pressured" because obviously, someone who changes his mind 24 hours after signing a contract wasn't given the opportunity to think it through.
Most of the drama here could be avoided if teams would stop considering pro players as goods they can trade. Teams just seem to want to buy players at the top of their skill, regardless of whether or not the training environment they provide will allow the player to reach his potential. Then when the player's skill declines because of an unadapted envirionment, they just release him and buy a new one. If coL had Stephano's best interest at heart, they would have talked with him thouroughly before hand instead of trying at all cost to make him sign a contract. Stephano most likely didn't even know what he was getting into.
On the other hand, Mill is offering stephano a stable environment in his own country, a CDI which means he is guaranteed financial stability for a long time (protected by french laws) and if I understood correctly an opportunity to go to korea eventually. One can very much understand why stephano would want to stay in Mill.
All in all, I think I'd have to go with "everyone is guilty" on this issue.
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On September 20 2011 19:04 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 18:57 karpo wrote:On September 20 2011 18:45 Brotocol wrote:On September 20 2011 18:42 karpo wrote:On September 20 2011 18:39 Brotocol wrote:On September 20 2011 18:26 Paladia wrote:
These kinds of legal threats on the internet a few hours after the dispute arises, are highly unprofessional.
They signed a contract with an 18-year old at 3 AM, in the middle of night. The next morning, the 18 year-old wakes up and realizes that perhaps it isn't such a good idea to quit med school and move to a different country. A mistake by him for sure, and poorly done, as he tries to back out of it.
Any reasonable person would cut the guy some slack, nor would they even let an 18-year old sign a contract at 3 AM which isn't even in his own language. CoL hasn't lost anything or invested anything in Stephano, yet they immediately decide to start legal threats over the Internet. Not because there is anything to gain from it but just in an attempt to show power.
While it is poorly done by Stephano for sure, one could certainly think that a professional esports organisation would be able to handle this better. They should just have stated "Stephano decided to stay with Millenium instead" and handled the contract issues with Millenium. There is no reason to start an internet flame war over it. Legal issues should be handled with care and discreetly, not over twitter.
You don't see General Electric, Manchested United or any other professional company post legal threats on forums or on Twitter. This is despite the fact that they likely have different disputes every day. All in all, everyone just looks like an amateur in this case. I would certainly not do business with either CoL or Stephano, as they have both showcased that they are unable to handle this professionally. This is quite a wishy washy post, where you take the convenient route of blaming all the parties involved, so that you appear to be correct. I strongly disagree with your approach of "blame everyone and act like a beacon of pacifism/wisdom," because most likely, one of the sides is a victim in the matter. The evidence suggests that Stephano invited the bidding war, and was indeed interested enough to sign a contract after weeks of negotiation. Whether he was misled or not is another story, but frankly, you're not authoritative enough to dismiss the dispute as "amateurs" on both sides. What evidence? The PR statements from two competing teams? Have you seen the contract, have you seen conversations between any of the affected parties? No? Then stop using that word. What the guy is saying is that it would have been better if Complexity and Millennium did this between themselves instead of plastering it all over teamliquid and even responding to individual reddit threads. It's hard to take any company that use twitter and reddit to convey points about a ongoing issue seriously. - The different stories both acknowledge the bidding war. That's evidence enough for the point made. - Public relations involve a public. "They should've kept it among themselves" - Why? Who are you to say that? Transparency is generally a good thing. Why does their PR policy even matter to you, anyway? As far as I can tell, you're just using it as a crutch so you can find something to blame both sides for. Either side choosing to express themselves where they see fit has NOTHING to do with the verdict. I responded to you because you complained when someone said that posting threats of legal action just a day after something like this doesn't look professional. And i still think it doesn't. There's a difference between transparency and what we have here. What we have is more of a "he said, she said" than anything else. Keeping it to themselves would have probably turned out in a couple of different ways, all better than having the fanbase shittalk both parties and making up all kinds of stupid shit based on nothing. Would have looked alot more professional if there was a post in a week or two about Stephano being released from Complexity and Complexity suing Millenium OR Stephano staying in Millennium due to backing out of the Complexity contract based on french laws. Now we've had 3-4 threads with bashing, idiotic suggestions of bans and people making up all kinds of stupid stories. You're complaining about "bashing," while defending a post that just pops in, bashes all the parties involved, and blinks out. Perish the thought that the involved parties express themselves on an ongoing matter.
He had an opinion and i have one. It's that this whole ordeal doesn't look good for any of the involved. Mill looks bad, Stephano looks bad and Complexity looks bad.
Seems like alot of esports businesses really need to shape up and control their flow of information better. I will never look at a company that posts about legal matters on reddit as a very serious one.
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On September 20 2011 19:07 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 19:04 Brotocol wrote:On September 20 2011 18:57 karpo wrote:On September 20 2011 18:45 Brotocol wrote:On September 20 2011 18:42 karpo wrote:On September 20 2011 18:39 Brotocol wrote:On September 20 2011 18:26 Paladia wrote:
These kinds of legal threats on the internet a few hours after the dispute arises, are highly unprofessional.
They signed a contract with an 18-year old at 3 AM, in the middle of night. The next morning, the 18 year-old wakes up and realizes that perhaps it isn't such a good idea to quit med school and move to a different country. A mistake by him for sure, and poorly done, as he tries to back out of it.
Any reasonable person would cut the guy some slack, nor would they even let an 18-year old sign a contract at 3 AM which isn't even in his own language. CoL hasn't lost anything or invested anything in Stephano, yet they immediately decide to start legal threats over the Internet. Not because there is anything to gain from it but just in an attempt to show power.
While it is poorly done by Stephano for sure, one could certainly think that a professional esports organisation would be able to handle this better. They should just have stated "Stephano decided to stay with Millenium instead" and handled the contract issues with Millenium. There is no reason to start an internet flame war over it. Legal issues should be handled with care and discreetly, not over twitter.
You don't see General Electric, Manchested United or any other professional company post legal threats on forums or on Twitter. This is despite the fact that they likely have different disputes every day. All in all, everyone just looks like an amateur in this case. I would certainly not do business with either CoL or Stephano, as they have both showcased that they are unable to handle this professionally. This is quite a wishy washy post, where you take the convenient route of blaming all the parties involved, so that you appear to be correct. I strongly disagree with your approach of "blame everyone and act like a beacon of pacifism/wisdom," because most likely, one of the sides is a victim in the matter. The evidence suggests that Stephano invited the bidding war, and was indeed interested enough to sign a contract after weeks of negotiation. Whether he was misled or not is another story, but frankly, you're not authoritative enough to dismiss the dispute as "amateurs" on both sides. What evidence? The PR statements from two competing teams? Have you seen the contract, have you seen conversations between any of the affected parties? No? Then stop using that word. What the guy is saying is that it would have been better if Complexity and Millennium did this between themselves instead of plastering it all over teamliquid and even responding to individual reddit threads. It's hard to take any company that use twitter and reddit to convey points about a ongoing issue seriously. - The different stories both acknowledge the bidding war. That's evidence enough for the point made. - Public relations involve a public. "They should've kept it among themselves" - Why? Who are you to say that? Transparency is generally a good thing. Why does their PR policy even matter to you, anyway? As far as I can tell, you're just using it as a crutch so you can find something to blame both sides for. Either side choosing to express themselves where they see fit has NOTHING to do with the verdict. I responded to you because you complained when someone said that posting threats of legal action just a day after something like this doesn't look professional. And i still think it doesn't. There's a difference between transparency and what we have here. What we have is more of a "he said, she said" than anything else. Keeping it to themselves would have probably turned out in a couple of different ways, all better than having the fanbase shittalk both parties and making up all kinds of stupid shit based on nothing. Would have looked alot more professional if there was a post in a week or two about Stephano being released from Complexity and Complexity suing Millenium OR Stephano staying in Millennium due to backing out of the Complexity contract based on french laws. Now we've had 3-4 threads with bashing, idiotic suggestions of bans and people making up all kinds of stupid stories. You're complaining about "bashing," while defending a post that just pops in, bashes all the parties involved, and blinks out. Perish the thought that the involved parties express themselves on an ongoing matter. He had an opinion and i have one. It's that this whole ordeal doesn't look good for any of the involved. Mill looks bad, Stephano looks bad and Complexity looks bad. Seems like alot of esports businesses really need to shape up and control their flow of information better. I will never look at a company that posts about legal matters on reddit as a very serious one.
You're absolutely entitled to that opinion.
I just thought the previous poster's message contributed almost nothing to the topic at hand. It made for a cool post, focusing on the most sensationalistic aspects (signing a contract at 3am) and implying both sides were in the wrong, not only in terms of PR, but also in the case. So, I was calling him out on that. It looked like nothing but an ego post.
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On September 20 2011 19:12 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 19:07 karpo wrote:On September 20 2011 19:04 Brotocol wrote:On September 20 2011 18:57 karpo wrote:On September 20 2011 18:45 Brotocol wrote:On September 20 2011 18:42 karpo wrote:On September 20 2011 18:39 Brotocol wrote:On September 20 2011 18:26 Paladia wrote:
These kinds of legal threats on the internet a few hours after the dispute arises, are highly unprofessional.
They signed a contract with an 18-year old at 3 AM, in the middle of night. The next morning, the 18 year-old wakes up and realizes that perhaps it isn't such a good idea to quit med school and move to a different country. A mistake by him for sure, and poorly done, as he tries to back out of it.
Any reasonable person would cut the guy some slack, nor would they even let an 18-year old sign a contract at 3 AM which isn't even in his own language. CoL hasn't lost anything or invested anything in Stephano, yet they immediately decide to start legal threats over the Internet. Not because there is anything to gain from it but just in an attempt to show power.
While it is poorly done by Stephano for sure, one could certainly think that a professional esports organisation would be able to handle this better. They should just have stated "Stephano decided to stay with Millenium instead" and handled the contract issues with Millenium. There is no reason to start an internet flame war over it. Legal issues should be handled with care and discreetly, not over twitter.
You don't see General Electric, Manchested United or any other professional company post legal threats on forums or on Twitter. This is despite the fact that they likely have different disputes every day. All in all, everyone just looks like an amateur in this case. I would certainly not do business with either CoL or Stephano, as they have both showcased that they are unable to handle this professionally. This is quite a wishy washy post, where you take the convenient route of blaming all the parties involved, so that you appear to be correct. I strongly disagree with your approach of "blame everyone and act like a beacon of pacifism/wisdom," because most likely, one of the sides is a victim in the matter. The evidence suggests that Stephano invited the bidding war, and was indeed interested enough to sign a contract after weeks of negotiation. Whether he was misled or not is another story, but frankly, you're not authoritative enough to dismiss the dispute as "amateurs" on both sides. What evidence? The PR statements from two competing teams? Have you seen the contract, have you seen conversations between any of the affected parties? No? Then stop using that word. What the guy is saying is that it would have been better if Complexity and Millennium did this between themselves instead of plastering it all over teamliquid and even responding to individual reddit threads. It's hard to take any company that use twitter and reddit to convey points about a ongoing issue seriously. - The different stories both acknowledge the bidding war. That's evidence enough for the point made. - Public relations involve a public. "They should've kept it among themselves" - Why? Who are you to say that? Transparency is generally a good thing. Why does their PR policy even matter to you, anyway? As far as I can tell, you're just using it as a crutch so you can find something to blame both sides for. Either side choosing to express themselves where they see fit has NOTHING to do with the verdict. I responded to you because you complained when someone said that posting threats of legal action just a day after something like this doesn't look professional. And i still think it doesn't. There's a difference between transparency and what we have here. What we have is more of a "he said, she said" than anything else. Keeping it to themselves would have probably turned out in a couple of different ways, all better than having the fanbase shittalk both parties and making up all kinds of stupid shit based on nothing. Would have looked alot more professional if there was a post in a week or two about Stephano being released from Complexity and Complexity suing Millenium OR Stephano staying in Millennium due to backing out of the Complexity contract based on french laws. Now we've had 3-4 threads with bashing, idiotic suggestions of bans and people making up all kinds of stupid stories. You're complaining about "bashing," while defending a post that just pops in, bashes all the parties involved, and blinks out. Perish the thought that the involved parties express themselves on an ongoing matter. He had an opinion and i have one. It's that this whole ordeal doesn't look good for any of the involved. Mill looks bad, Stephano looks bad and Complexity looks bad. Seems like alot of esports businesses really need to shape up and control their flow of information better. I will never look at a company that posts about legal matters on reddit as a very serious one. You're absolutely entitled to that opinion. I just thought the previous poster's message contributed almost nothing to the topic at hand. It made for a cool post, focusing on the most sensationalistic aspects (signing a contract at 3am) and implying both sides were in the wrong, not only in terms of PR, but also in the case. So, I was calling him out on that. It looked like nothing but an ego post.
Yaeh good call he is jsut doing a brag psot nothing moer. He doesnt know about what raelly went on and the felt emoitons involved with teh plaers and the taem.
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On September 20 2011 17:57 m0ck wrote:
A bit of water for the fire in the belly of the 'Stephano is killing eports' crowd.
Think about the discrepancy between the actors in power, knowledge and experience. Both in the particular and in the general. Stephano is 18 years old, just out of high school. He's a french speaker first, and knows english as a secondary language. After recent succes in SC2, he's contacted by a host of teams trying to sign 'the next big thing'.
He's now put in a situation where he has to negotiate his first professional contract by himself. This contract is negotiated in english and written into an english language contract. The team trying to hire him is represented by a lawyer. He is not so himself. Any questions he has are explained to him by representatives of the team trying to hire him. Negotiation happens over the internet with Stephano being in france/tunesia and the team trying to hire him in USA. The signing of the contract happens through a specialized internet-site.
So, who has the power? True, Stephano has the power of being the one with the talent. He decides where to take it. But who has experience with negotiating a contract? Who has the legal understanding of the implications of the contract? Who can understand the legalese of a contract? Who is a native speaker of the language of the contract and of the negotiation? Who has/is the lawyer?
...
nicely written post but I have to disagree with your conclusions...
It is not hard to get legal advice and when you consider signing a contract with a monetary worth in the five-six figures the expense of consulting an attorney should almost always be justified.
Lawyers are not *that* expensive and having them read over the document and give you advice on its terms takes a few hours - not remotely comparable to the cost of having them fight on your behalf in court.
Especially if the contract is written in a foreign language and placed in a foreign jurisdiction (Texas, US) that you have no experience with whatsoever (civil law vs common law) you should realize the limits of your abilities and buy independent counsel.
"he's only 18, how is he supposed to know that he knows nothing about international employment/contract law?"
Even at age 18 you tend to have parents, older brothers & sisters, godparents, or other relatives that you can trust and that are likely to have a few decades more experience in business dealings than you do. If anyone has the responsibility to introduce you to the evil realities of adult life, it's them.
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On September 20 2011 19:06 Geiko wrote:
French laws are much less rigid and more about common sense than US laws.
Anyone with common sense would agree that breaking a contract 24 hours after signing it doesn't harm any of the actors involved.
If I sign a contract in France where I hire a guy to mow my lawn in exchange for 1 Million €, and I don't pay up, the guy can try to sue me all he wants, but at most I'll just have to pay him 25€ + legal fees and most likely this won't even ever go to court.
In this case, the contract has obvious flaws. The fact that stephano might not have understood it entirely (language, young age, time of signature...), the fact that it has appearantly no withdrawal period (is that how you say it ?) etc...
The problem here is that this is apparantly a US contract by US laws and I guess we'll just have to wait and see what will happen.
Americans are all upset about this because in their culture, a contract is a 100% binding agreement. French people don't care as much of what stephano did because in french culture, there are usually a lot of ways to break a contract, and contracts who don't allow this are usually illegal (by frenchlaws).
I personally think that Millenium's move is not very classy and/or professional.
I don't mind much for Stephano's action because the amounts of money involved can lead to difficult situation for an 18 year old (think back how mature you guys were when you were 18).
I can't help but feel that coL got what they deserved for blatently going behind Mill's back (even though Mill probably were aware of the situation, coL didn't negociate with them directly) and pressuring an 18 year old player into signing a contract. I say "pressured" because obviously, someone who changes his mind 24 hours after signing a contract wasn't given the opportunity to think it through.
Most of the drama here could be avoided if teams would stop considering pro players as goods they can trade. Teams just seem to want to buy players at the top of their skill, regardless of whether or not the training environment they provide will allow the player to reach his potential. Then when the player's skill declines because of an unadapted envirionment, they just release him and buy a new one. If coL had Stephano's best interest at heart, they would have talked with him thouroughly before hand instead of trying at all cost to make him sign a contract. Stephano most likely didn't even know what he was getting into.
On the other hand, Mill is offering stephano a stable environment in his own country, a CDI which means he is guaranteed financial stability for a long time (protected by french laws) and if I understood correctly an opportunity to go to korea eventually. One can very much understand why stephano would want to stay in Mill.
All in all, I think I'd have to go with "everyone is guilty" on this issue.
Wait what is Complexity guilty of?
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On September 20 2011 19:04 karpo wrote:
I don't know how you can said that Mill lie/steal when we still don't know if the contract signed is valid (like Complexity says) or if it violates laws and is invalid (as Mill seem to think).
If the contract is valid, then yes they stole a player. If it is invalid then they just explained that to Stephano and provided him with a valid contract.
To be clear. I don't prefer anyone in this, just so tired of people claming alot of stuff when there's still little information and no clear answer on contract validity.
I don't prefer anyone in this either, however, if stephano did sign a legal contract with complexity, and then mill got him to sign a contract afterwards, they basically did steal him. Also by them saying that col disorientated stephano into it was a pretty big lie.
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On September 20 2011 19:18 cost2010 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 17:57 m0ck wrote:
A bit of water for the fire in the belly of the 'Stephano is killing eports' crowd.
Think about the discrepancy between the actors in power, knowledge and experience. Both in the particular and in the general. Stephano is 18 years old, just out of high school. He's a french speaker first, and knows english as a secondary language. After recent succes in SC2, he's contacted by a host of teams trying to sign 'the next big thing'.
He's now put in a situation where he has to negotiate his first professional contract by himself. This contract is negotiated in english and written into an english language contract. The team trying to hire him is represented by a lawyer. He is not so himself. Any questions he has are explained to him by representatives of the team trying to hire him. Negotiation happens over the internet with Stephano being in france/tunesia and the team trying to hire him in USA. The signing of the contract happens through a specialized internet-site.
So, who has the power? True, Stephano has the power of being the one with the talent. He decides where to take it. But who has experience with negotiating a contract? Who has the legal understanding of the implications of the contract? Who can understand the legalese of a contract? Who is a native speaker of the language of the contract and of the negotiation? Who has/is the lawyer?
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nicely written post but I have to disagree with your conclusions... It is not hard to get legal advice and when you consider signing a contract with a monetary worth in the five-six figures the expense of consulting an attorney should almost always be justified. Lawyers are not *that* expensive and having them read over the document and give you advice on its terms takes a few hours - not remotely comparable to the cost of having them fight on your behalf in court. Especially if the contract is written in a foreign language and placed in a foreign jurisdiction (Texas, US) that you have no experience with whatsoever (civil law vs common law) you should realize the limits of your abilities and buy independent counsel. "he's only 18, how is he supposed to know that he knows nothing about international employment/contract law?" Even at age 18 you tend to have parents, older brothers & sisters, godparents, or other relatives that you can trust and that are likely to have a few decades more experience in business dealings than you do. If anyone has the responsibility to introduce you to the evil realities of adult life, it's them.
Well, you know, when complexity made him sign a contract at 5a.m., they probably made sure Stephano had the time to speak with his family, his team, a lawyer.
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On September 20 2011 19:22 Horse...falcon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 19:06 Geiko wrote:
French laws are much less rigid and more about common sense than US laws.
Anyone with common sense would agree that breaking a contract 24 hours after signing it doesn't harm any of the actors involved.
If I sign a contract in France where I hire a guy to mow my lawn in exchange for 1 Million €, and I don't pay up, the guy can try to sue me all he wants, but at most I'll just have to pay him 25€ + legal fees and most likely this won't even ever go to court.
In this case, the contract has obvious flaws. The fact that stephano might not have understood it entirely (language, young age, time of signature...), the fact that it has appearantly no withdrawal period (is that how you say it ?) etc...
The problem here is that this is apparantly a US contract by US laws and I guess we'll just have to wait and see what will happen.
Americans are all upset about this because in their culture, a contract is a 100% binding agreement. French people don't care as much of what stephano did because in french culture, there are usually a lot of ways to break a contract, and contracts who don't allow this are usually illegal (by frenchlaws).
I personally think that Millenium's move is not very classy and/or professional.
I don't mind much for Stephano's action because the amounts of money involved can lead to difficult situation for an 18 year old (think back how mature you guys were when you were 18).
I can't help but feel that coL got what they deserved for blatently going behind Mill's back (even though Mill probably were aware of the situation, coL didn't negociate with them directly) and pressuring an 18 year old player into signing a contract. I say "pressured" because obviously, someone who changes his mind 24 hours after signing a contract wasn't given the opportunity to think it through.
Most of the drama here could be avoided if teams would stop considering pro players as goods they can trade. Teams just seem to want to buy players at the top of their skill, regardless of whether or not the training environment they provide will allow the player to reach his potential. Then when the player's skill declines because of an unadapted envirionment, they just release him and buy a new one. If coL had Stephano's best interest at heart, they would have talked with him thouroughly before hand instead of trying at all cost to make him sign a contract. Stephano most likely didn't even know what he was getting into.
On the other hand, Mill is offering stephano a stable environment in his own country, a CDI which means he is guaranteed financial stability for a long time (protected by french laws) and if I understood correctly an opportunity to go to korea eventually. One can very much understand why stephano would want to stay in Mill.
All in all, I think I'd have to go with "everyone is guilty" on this issue.
Wait what is Complexity guilty of?
Going behind Millenium's back. Not explaining the content of the contract corectly to Stephano. Morally guilty at least.
In legal terms, not much you are right.
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"Wait what is Complexity guilty of?"
to don't talk to millenium about stephano's on the point of signing a contract in an another team ever
Imagine EG making the same shadow move to Huk, what would be your thoughts about that?
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In my country, all contracts not written in the local language are void. No exceptions. (That means no EULAs can have any power, incidentally.)
I find it hard to believe that the same thing doesn't happen in France... where they are so obsessed with the language that Microsoft has to translate their whole suite to sell there.
Anybody from France who can confirm or deny this?
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On September 20 2011 19:26 mdpopescu wrote:
In my country, all contracts not written in the local language are void. No exceptions. (That means no EULAs can have any power, incidentally.)
I find it hard to believe that the same thing doesn't happen in France... where they are so obsessed with the language that Microsoft has to translate their whole suite to sell there.
Anybody from France who can confirm or deny this?
same in france, it must be written in french as well
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On September 20 2011 19:24 Geiko wrote:
Going behind Millenium's back. Not explaining the content of the contract corectly to Stephano. Morally guilty at least.
In legal terms, not much you are right.
So complexity were meant to go to mil and say "yo mil we know stephanos contract is running out and he hasn't accepted your offer to renew it so we were wondering if we could give him an offer, even tho he wont be under contract from you???  ))"
No, they did nothing wrong. Stephano had multiple copies of the contract for a few weeks, if he didn't understand it's his own fault for not going to someone to help him understand them.
And theres nothing morally wrong in approaching a player about signing to your team after their contract runs out.
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On September 20 2011 19:23 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 19:18 cost2010 wrote:
nicely written post but I have to disagree with your conclusions...
It is not hard to get legal advice and when you consider signing a contract with a monetary worth in the five-six figures the expense of consulting an attorney should almost always be justified.
Lawyers are not *that* expensive and having them read over the document and give you advice on its terms takes a few hours - not remotely comparable to the cost of having them fight on your behalf in court.
Especially if the contract is written in a foreign language and placed in a foreign jurisdiction (Texas, US) that you have no experience with whatsoever (civil law vs common law) you should realize the limits of your abilities and buy independent counsel.
"he's only 18, how is he supposed to know that he knows nothing about international employment/contract law?"
Even at age 18 you tend to have parents, older brothers & sisters, godparents, or other relatives that you can trust and that are likely to have a few decades more experience in business dealings than you do. If anyone has the responsibility to introduce you to the evil realities of adult life, it's them.
Well, you know, when complexity made him sign a contract at 5a.m., they probably made sure Stephano had the time to speak with his family, his team, a lawyer.
according to what col told us (which may or may not be true) they were negotiating for several weeks.
It would be very unusual that major changes to the contract are made last minute on col's behalf (and no sane person would consider signing the contract in that case without following up on the implications of these changes) - it seems likely (but we cannot know for sure) that all that changed were a few numbers.
The real issues are very likely to have been present from the first drafts.
Is it reasonable to enter such a contract in a US jurisdiction?
What requirements if any that are set by French employment law are missing?
Does the status as a contractor (instead of employee) violate laws on fake/false self-employment?
Are there sufficient provisions for Stephano to get out of the contract prematurely if he feels the need to do so?
What options does the contract leave him when he feels col is not properly fulfilling their side of the bargain?
What about sick times, loss of his ability to perform the work he was contracted for (say he loses a few fingers of his left hand in a tragic accident?), ... ?
that's the sort of question you would want to consult a lawyer about (and the issues where Millenium's offer of a "real" employment contract as opposed to the contractor agreement proposed by coL might shine) - changing a few figures to make a more attractive offer would usually not affect them at all.
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EPT
