Lack of content, flaming (of the French or anyone) and useless posts will be punished. Please keep it from being too inflammatory and keep discussion on-topic. -semioldguy (p.103)
On September 20 2011 17:43 Merlimoo wrote: I think it is time to stop bitching around.
It is known that American and French (most likely european or just none american) have a different way of considering business and contrats in general. It is well known that french people find absurd the way americans tend to sue people for everything. In any case, it is a matter of difference of culture and no one should even try to judge or comment that.
It is true that in France, we have some laws that protect people against forced contracts or uneducated signatures and that we have ways of canceling some in certains circumstances. In any way, since every country has laws that can be contradictory and since the laws do not apply based on your nationality, there is no way to say that theses french mecanisms can applied.
In my opinion, if he signed an amercian contrat, since coL does not have a company headquater in France, they have no obligation to respect french laws. But, normally when you work in the states as a foreigner you should get a visa. What I want to say is that we don't how theses contract are done and who is right.
Notice, that we don't really know what happened, what was the mindset of Stephano and what pressure did he get from both sides (and maybe his familly). Even if he should respect his decisions, even more if they are contracted, he is young and we should allow him to make mistakes (which does not exclude him from honoring a contract). Especially for this kind of things, that are a really marginal in France. Just wait a little bit and hope that HE (himself) will explain what happened.
The point is, regardless of who is right in a juridic term, if Stephano was ensure of his decisions, he should have waited.
As a french esport fan since the begining, I am a bit sad of the behavior of Stephano, but keep in mind that esport should be stronger that mere nationality issues. We are the ones that should be above all that.
It's not about nationality dude, you should read the post, Millenium don't care about esport, if they do they would've make explanation on TL and answer coL emails, but they clearly stated they don't care and it will be over in 2weeks.
I know and I'm deeply ashamed of their behavior. But, note that it is only 10:50am here. At least let them some time to wake up
How could he not be sure of his decision? He was jumping between both managers to increase the biddings.
On September 20 2011 17:54 alexlw92 wrote: im confused. hypothetically, if this were to go to court, would it be french or american? if he's a french citizen (im assuming), and he signs a contract from an american corporation, does it follow american or french laws?
Has been discussed in the thread previously. Contract will indicate this.
A bit of water for the fire in the belly of the 'Stephano is killing eports' crowd.
Think about the discrepancy between the actors in power, knowledge and experience. Both in the particular and in the general. Stephano is 18 years old, just out of high school. He's a french speaker first, and knows english as a secondary language. After recent succes in SC2, he's contacted by a host of teams trying to sign 'the next big thing'.
He's now put in a situation where he has to negotiate his first professional contract by himself. This contract is negotiated in english and written into an english language contract. The team trying to hire him is represented by a lawyer. He is not so himself. Any questions he has are explained to him by representatives of the team trying to hire him. Negotiation happens over the internet with Stephano being in france/tunesia and the team trying to hire him in USA. The signing of the contract happens through a specialized internet-site.
So, who has the power? True, Stephano has the power of being the one with the talent. He decides where to take it. But who has experience with negotiating a contract? Who has the legal understanding of the implications of the contract? Who can understand the legalese of a contract? Who is a native speaker of the language of the contract and of the negotiation? Who has/is the lawyer?
The team. In this case its compLexity, but really this goes for almost all negotiating sitautions between players and teams. The situation heavily favors the established teams. In this situation, Stephano has to trust that what complexity tells him is said in the contract, is actually what is in the contract. He doesn't even have the opportunity of reading the contract in his native language.
But from the players perspective, it gets worse. Because while before the contract is written, stephano at least has the power of talent, once he signs a contract, he is out of luck. Why? Because he has no realistic way of recourse in case of a miss-represented contract or breach of the contract. What is he supposed to do? Threaten legal action against complexity? On the other hand, it may/may-not be that complexity is willing to pursue this issue in a court. That is, because of his digital signature/pressing a button on an internet-site, he faces consequences that was probably not talked about before the signing of the contract. I can't say that for sure, because maybe complexity explained to him the consequences of a breach of contract (in complexitys opinion, that is), or a change of mind, and in any case the repercussion may be stated in the contract he can't read.
What I'm trying to say is this: Though at first hand it may not seem so, legal contracts are in fact only to the advantage of the teams, not the players. When signing the contract, realistically, the players rely on the goodwill of the teams in truthfully representing the content of the contract to the player. In case of a breach on the contract, only the teams have the power and means to take legal action. Certainly so internationally. Players can only really rely on word of mouth as to whom to trust.
Now, I don't mean this to be an excuse for the actions of Stephano, though I think it's very understandable to be confused and impulsive at 18. I don't think the actions of anyone involved are showing anything beside self-interest. And though complexity may hold the legal high ground (although maybe not), I don't see much in the cancellation of a 12-hours old contract that is written in english, which signs an 18 year old frenchman with no legal representation, whose domain of legal jurisdiction is unknown, apparently without meeting in person (and yes, I think when you sign an 18 year old from another continent to a full time contract, you ought to make the effort to go and see them) to be morally outraged about.
On September 20 2011 17:54 alexlw92 wrote: im confused. hypothetically, if this were to go to court, would it be french or american? if he's a french citizen (im assuming), and he signs a contract from an american corporation, does it follow american or french laws?
The problem is that there aren't enough lawyers on Team Liquid to answer these simple questions. :p
On September 20 2011 17:57 m0ck wrote: So, who has the power? True, Stephano has the power of being the one with the talent. He decides where to take it. But who has experience with negotiating a contract? Who has the legal understanding of the implications of the contract? Who can understand the legalese of a contract? Who is a native speaker of the language of the contract and of the negotiation? Who has/is the lawyer?
The team. In this case its compLexity, but really this goes for almost all negotiating sitautions between players and teams. The situation heavily favors the established teams. In this situation, Stephano has to trust that what complexity tells him is said in the contract, is actually what is in the contract. He doesn't even have the opportunity of reading the contract in his native language.
That does not make sense to me since he probably got a translated version of the contract or he had at least weeks to figure out what it says ( see comment of both teams about how the biddings went on for weeks )
coL is a professional team i dubt theyd offer him an illegal contract. And to make things worse, he signed it. He had enough time to think about it. He talked to both teams several times about the bidding to increase the possible wage.
As far as i know i have to pay for a car when i sign the contract no matter how bad the conditions are.
On September 20 2011 17:43 Merlimoo wrote: I think it is time to stop bitching around.
It is known that American and French (most likely european or just none american) have a different way of considering business and contrats in general. It is well known that french people find absurd the way americans tend to sue people for everything. In any case, it is a matter of difference of culture and no one should even try to judge or comment that.
It is true that in France, we have some laws that protect people against forced contracts or uneducated signatures and that we have ways of canceling some in certains circumstances. In any way, since every country has laws that can be contradictory and since the laws do not apply based on your nationality, there is no way to say that theses french mecanisms can applied.
In my opinion, if he signed an amercian contrat, since coL does not have a company headquater in France, they have no obligation to respect french laws. But, normally when you work in the states as a foreigner you should get a visa. What I want to say is that we don't how theses contract are done and who is right.
Notice, that we don't really know what happened, what was the mindset of Stephano and what pressure did he get from both sides (and maybe his familly). Even if he should respect his decisions, even more if they are contracted, he is young and we should allow him to make mistakes (which does not exclude him from honoring a contract). Especially for this kind of things, that are a really marginal in France. Just wait a little bit and hope that HE (himself) will explain what happened.
The point is, regardless of who is right in a juridic term, if Stephano was ensure of his decisions, he should have waited.
As a french esport fan since the begining, I am a bit sad of the behavior of Stephano, but keep in mind that esport should be stronger that mere nationality issues. We are the ones that should be above all that.
You dont have a clue what are you talking about eh? Forced contract is kind of contract that is signed by use of Absolute force, compulsive force or threat, and I dont see that's possible. Pressure from family or each teams is normal circumstance in all kind of business.
They are ways of forcing a signature of a contract by psychological means that are recognized as such, at least in France... Furthermore, there are laws that simply void the contract if he can show that he did not clearly understood some part of it, even if he read it all, even in french...
On September 20 2011 17:57 m0ck wrote: A bit of water for the 'Stephano is killing eports' crowd.
Think about the discrepancy between the actors in power, knowledge and experience. Both in the particular and in the general. Stephano is 18 years old, just out of high school. He's a french speaker first, and knows english as a secondary language. After recent succes in SC2, he's contacted by a host of teams trying to sign 'the next big thing'.
He's now put in a situation where he has to negotiate his first professional contract by himself. This contract is negotiated in english and written into an english language contract. The team trying to hire him is represented by a lawyer. He is not so himself. Any questions he has are explained to him by representatives of the team trying to hire him. Negotiation happens over the internet with Stephano being in france/tunesia and the team trying to hire him in USA. The signing of the contract happens through a specialized internet-site.
So, who has the power? True, Stephano has the power of being the one with the talent. He decides where to take it. But who has experience with negotiating a contract? Who has the legal understanding of the implications of the contract? Who can understand the legalese of a contract? Who is a native speaker of the language of the contract and of the negotiation? Who has/is the lawyer?
The team. In this case its compLexity, but really this goes for almost all negotiating sitautions between players and teams. The situation heavily favors the established teams. In this situation, Stephano has to trust that what complexity tells him is said in the contract, is actually what is in the contract. He doesn't even have the opportunity of reading the contract in his native language.
But from the players perspective, it gets worse. Because while before the contract is written, stephano at least has the power of talent, once he signs a contract, he is out of luck. Why? Because he has no realistic way of recourse in case of a miss-represented contract or breach of the contract. What is he supposed to do? Threaten legal action against complexity? On the other hand, it may/may-not be that complexity is willing to pursue this issue in a court. That is, because of his digital signature/pressing a button on an internet-site, he faces consequences that was probably not talked about before the signing of the contract. I can't say that for sure, because maybe complexity explained to him the consequences of a breach of contract (in complexitys opinion, that is), or a change of mind, and in any case the repercussion may be stated in the contract he can't read.
What I'm trying to say is this: Though at first hand it may not seem so, legal contracts are in fact only to the advantage of the teams, not the players. When signing the contract, realistically, the players rely on the goodwill of the teams in truthfully representing the content of the contract to the player. In case of a breach on the contract, only the teams have the power and means to take legal action. Certainly so internationally. Players can only really rely on word of mouth as to whom to trust.
Now, I don't mean this to be an excuse for the actions of Stephano, though I think it's very understandable to be confused and impulsive at 18. I don't think the actions of anyone involved are showing anything beside self-interest. And though complexity may hold the legal high ground (although maybe not), I don't see much in the cancellation of a contract that is written in english, which signs an 18 year old frenchman with no legal representation, whose domain of legal jurisdiction is unknown, apparently without meeting in person (and yes, I think when you sign an 18 year old from another continent to a full time contract, you ought to make the effort to go and see them) to be morally outraged about.
Of course this is all implying that coL has some ulterior motive to offering him travel, great salary, international tournament entries? You make it sound as if the contract was toxic, but was candy coated for Stephano? How are you to assume that Stephano was some how "tricked" by coL's lawyers into signing this contract? How do you know the contract is something he can't read?
You're making a lot of assumptions, just to support Stephano. Occam's Razor, the theory with the least amount of assumptions is most likely correct.
I've never read so much bullshit about laws and contracts in my whole life before^^ Guys, wtf, you're trying to say that in Europe you can break contracts when ever you want - and even make it sound like thats a good thing. a) thats not true and b) even if it was true, it still suxx.
Could we please stop talking about the laws and if they found a loophole for him to break out of the contract? (lawyers or a court or who ever might decide about this, not us)
The most important fact about this is: He fu***** signed a contract (everybody agrees on this), Mill tried to convince him that it suxx and he should ignore the contract. Even if for some reasons a court would decide that this was cuz of some bullshit French law... then it still suxx for eSports.
The more Frenchies try to defend the Mill/Stephano actions the more im tilting^^
On September 20 2011 17:43 Merlimoo wrote: I think it is time to stop bitching around.
It is known that American and French (most likely european or just none american) have a different way of considering business and contrats in general. It is well known that french people find absurd the way americans tend to sue people for everything. In any case, it is a matter of difference of culture and no one should even try to judge or comment that.
It is true that in France, we have some laws that protect people against forced contracts or uneducated signatures and that we have ways of canceling some in certains circumstances. In any way, since every country has laws that can be contradictory and since the laws do not apply based on your nationality, there is no way to say that theses french mecanisms can applied.
In my opinion, if he signed an amercian contrat, since coL does not have a company headquater in France, they have no obligation to respect french laws. But, normally when you work in the states as a foreigner you should get a visa. What I want to say is that we don't how theses contract are done and who is right.
Notice, that we don't really know what happened, what was the mindset of Stephano and what pressure did he get from both sides (and maybe his familly). Even if he should respect his decisions, even more if they are contracted, he is young and we should allow him to make mistakes (which does not exclude him from honoring a contract). Especially for this kind of things, that are a really marginal in France. Just wait a little bit and hope that HE (himself) will explain what happened.
The point is, regardless of who is right in a juridic term, if Stephano was ensure of his decisions, he should have waited.
As a french esport fan since the begining, I am a bit sad of the behavior of Stephano, but keep in mind that esport should be stronger that mere nationality issues. We are the ones that should be above all that.
You dont have a clue what are you talking about eh? Forced contract is kind of contract that is signed by use of Absolute force, compulsive force or threat, and I dont see that's possible. Pressure from family or each teams is normal circumstance in all kind of business.
They are ways of forcing a signature of a contract by psychological means that are recognized as such, at least in France... Furthermore, there are laws that simply void the contract if he can show that he did not clearly understood some part of it, even if he read it all, even in french...
Mill. statement:
"After a long discussion, Stephano understood his mistake and decided to stay with Millenium for the next 12 months"
Sounds more like forcing him out of the contract by Mill.
On September 20 2011 18:04 havox_ wrote: I've never read so much bullshit about laws and contracts in my whole life before^^ Guys, wtf, you're trying to say that in Europe you can break contracts when ever you want - and even make it sound like thats a good thing. a) thats not true and b) even if it was true, it still suxx.
Could we please stop talking about the laws and if they found a loophole for him to break out of the contract? (lawyers or a court or who ever might decide about this, not us)
The most important fact about this is: He fu***** signed a contract (everybody agrees on this), Mill tried to convince him that it suxx and he should ignore the contract. Even if for some reasons a court would decide that this was cuz of some bullshit French law... then it still suxx for eSports.
The more Frenchies try to defend the Mill/Stephano actions the more im tilting^^
Not gunna lie, I laughed quite hard when I looked and saw you were from Germany. Especially concerning this matter. But I agree completely :D
Also @coL, look into Darkforce, that guy wrecks soo much balls compared to Stephano, now there's a guy who deserves some of that cash, and travel!!!
On September 20 2011 18:04 havox_ wrote: I've never read so much bullshit about laws and contracts in my whole life before^^ Guys, wtf, you're trying to say that in Europe you can break contracts when ever you want - and even make it sound like thats a good thing. a) thats not true and b) even if it was true, it still suxx.
Could we please stop talking about the laws and if they found a loophole for him to break out of the contract? (lawyers or a court or who ever might decide about this, not us)
The most important fact about this is: He fu***** signed a contract (everybody agrees on this), Mill tried to convince him that it suxx and he should ignore the contract. Even if for some reasons a court would decide that this was cuz of some bullshit French law... then it still suxx for eSports.
The more Frenchies try to defend the Mill/Stephano actions the more im tilting^^
I'm clearly not defending him. As young as he may be, if he signed something (valid!), he should respect it! And I think that Millenium proved us that they does not deserved to be a "Great european/french team", if they really are... In my opinion, for his career Stephano should go to coL.
On September 20 2011 17:43 Merlimoo wrote: I think it is time to stop bitching around.
It is known that American and French (most likely european or just none american) have a different way of considering business and contrats in general. It is well known that french people find absurd the way americans tend to sue people for everything. In any case, it is a matter of difference of culture and no one should even try to judge or comment that.
It is true that in France, we have some laws that protect people against forced contracts or uneducated signatures and that we have ways of canceling some in certains circumstances. In any way, since every country has laws that can be contradictory and since the laws do not apply based on your nationality, there is no way to say that theses french mecanisms can applied.
In my opinion, if he signed an amercian contrat, since coL does not have a company headquater in France, they have no obligation to respect french laws. But, normally when you work in the states as a foreigner you should get a visa. What I want to say is that we don't how theses contract are done and who is right.
Notice, that we don't really know what happened, what was the mindset of Stephano and what pressure did he get from both sides (and maybe his familly). Even if he should respect his decisions, even more if they are contracted, he is young and we should allow him to make mistakes (which does not exclude him from honoring a contract). Especially for this kind of things, that are a really marginal in France. Just wait a little bit and hope that HE (himself) will explain what happened.
The point is, regardless of who is right in a juridic term, if Stephano was ensure of his decisions, he should have waited.
As a french esport fan since the begining, I am a bit sad of the behavior of Stephano, but keep in mind that esport should be stronger that mere nationality issues. We are the ones that should be above all that.
It's not about nationality dude, you should read the post, Millenium don't care about esport, if they do they would've make explanation on TL and answer coL emails, but they clearly stated they don't care and it will be over in 2weeks.
I know and I'm deeply ashamed of their behavior. But, note that it is only 10:50am here. At least let them some time to wake up
How could he not be sure of his decision? He was jumping between both managers to increase the biddings.
The millenium manager clearly said it wasn't the case and it has been written in previous posts so please shut up with your "jumping between managers"
On September 20 2011 17:57 m0ck wrote: A bit of water for the 'Stephano is killing eports' crowd.
Think about the discrepancy between the actors in power, knowledge and experience. Both in the particular and in the general. Stephano is 18 years old, just out of high school. He's a french speaker first, and knows english as a secondary language. After recent succes in SC2, he's contacted by a host of teams trying to sign 'the next big thing'.
He's now put in a situation where he has to negotiate his first professional contract by himself. This contract is negotiated in english and written into an english language contract. The team trying to hire him is represented by a lawyer. He is not so himself. Any questions he has are explained to him by representatives of the team trying to hire him. Negotiation happens over the internet with Stephano being in france/tunesia and the team trying to hire him in USA. The signing of the contract happens through a specialized internet-site.
So, who has the power? True, Stephano has the power of being the one with the talent. He decides where to take it. But who has experience with negotiating a contract? Who has the legal understanding of the implications of the contract? Who can understand the legalese of a contract? Who is a native speaker of the language of the contract and of the negotiation? Who has/is the lawyer?
The team. In this case its compLexity, but really this goes for almost all negotiating sitautions between players and teams. The situation heavily favors the established teams. In this situation, Stephano has to trust that what complexity tells him is said in the contract, is actually what is in the contract. He doesn't even have the opportunity of reading the contract in his native language.
But from the players perspective, it gets worse. Because while before the contract is written, stephano at least has the power of talent, once he signs a contract, he is out of luck. Why? Because he has no realistic way of recourse in case of a miss-represented contract or breach of the contract. What is he supposed to do? Threaten legal action against complexity? On the other hand, it may/may-not be that complexity is willing to pursue this issue in a court. That is, because of his digital signature/pressing a button on an internet-site, he faces consequences that was probably not talked about before the signing of the contract. I can't say that for sure, because maybe complexity explained to him the consequences of a breach of contract (in complexitys opinion, that is), or a change of mind, and in any case the repercussion may be stated in the contract he can't read.
What I'm trying to say is this: Though at first hand it may not seem so, legal contracts are in fact only to the advantage of the teams, not the players. When signing the contract, realistically, the players rely on the goodwill of the teams in truthfully representing the content of the contract to the player. In case of a breach on the contract, only the teams have the power and means to take legal action. Certainly so internationally. Players can only really rely on word of mouth as to whom to trust.
Now, I don't mean this to be an excuse for the actions of Stephano, though I think it's very understandable to be confused and impulsive at 18. I don't think the actions of anyone involved are showing anything beside self-interest. And though complexity may hold the legal high ground (although maybe not), I don't see much in the cancellation of a contract that is written in english, which signs an 18 year old frenchman with no legal representation, whose domain of legal jurisdiction is unknown, apparently without meeting in person (and yes, I think when you sign an 18 year old from another continent to a full time contract, you ought to make the effort to go and see them) to be morally outraged about.
Of course this is all implying that coL has some ulterior motive to offering him travel, great salary, international tournament entries? You make it sound as if the contract was toxic, but was candy coated for Stephano? How are you to assume that Stephano was some how "tricked" by coL's lawyers into signing this contract? How do you know the contract is something he can't read?
You're making a lot of assumptions, just to support Stephano. Occam's Razor, the theory with the least amount of assumptions is most likely correct.
As I state late in my post, I don't think anyone here has acted with anything but self-interest. I'm not talking about complexity acting in bad faith. I'm pointing out that Stephano has no way of knowing. And that the protection that the contract offers is meaningless to Stephano. He has no realistic way of upholding his legal rights in case of a miss-represented contract or a breach of contract.
On September 20 2011 17:43 Merlimoo wrote: I think it is time to stop bitching around.
It is known that American and French (most likely european or just none american) have a different way of considering business and contrats in general. It is well known that french people find absurd the way americans tend to sue people for everything. In any case, it is a matter of difference of culture and no one should even try to judge or comment that.
It is true that in France, we have some laws that protect people against forced contracts or uneducated signatures and that we have ways of canceling some in certains circumstances. In any way, since every country has laws that can be contradictory and since the laws do not apply based on your nationality, there is no way to say that theses french mecanisms can applied.
In my opinion, if he signed an amercian contrat, since coL does not have a company headquater in France, they have no obligation to respect french laws. But, normally when you work in the states as a foreigner you should get a visa. What I want to say is that we don't how theses contract are done and who is right.
Notice, that we don't really know what happened, what was the mindset of Stephano and what pressure did he get from both sides (and maybe his familly). Even if he should respect his decisions, even more if they are contracted, he is young and we should allow him to make mistakes (which does not exclude him from honoring a contract). Especially for this kind of things, that are a really marginal in France. Just wait a little bit and hope that HE (himself) will explain what happened.
The point is, regardless of who is right in a juridic term, if Stephano was ensure of his decisions, he should have waited.
As a french esport fan since the begining, I am a bit sad of the behavior of Stephano, but keep in mind that esport should be stronger that mere nationality issues. We are the ones that should be above all that.
You dont have a clue what are you talking about eh? Forced contract is kind of contract that is signed by use of Absolute force, compulsive force or threat, and I dont see that's possible. Pressure from family or each teams is normal circumstance in all kind of business.
They are ways of forcing a signature of a contract by psychological means that are recognized as such, at least in France... Furthermore, there are laws that simply void the contract if he can show that he did not clearly understood some part of it, even if he read it all, even in french...
Mill. statement:
"After a long discussion, Stephano understood his mistake and decided to stay with Millenium for the next 12 months"
Sounds more like forcing him out of the contract by Mill.
I agree, that's exactly what this sounds like. As far as we know, Millenium was bidding competitively with Col, and Col won out. Millenium had incentive to talk Stephano out of it, and that's what they did. It fits pretty well.
Moving past the objective facts that we know, I subjectively think that Mill's statement is arrogant. It's almost marketing. They imply that Stephano finally came to his senses and remained with Mill, the better team. It's okay though, they set Stephano straight for his "mistake."
On September 20 2011 17:43 Merlimoo wrote: I think it is time to stop bitching around.
It is known that American and French (most likely european or just none american) have a different way of considering business and contrats in general. It is well known that french people find absurd the way americans tend to sue people for everything. In any case, it is a matter of difference of culture and no one should even try to judge or comment that.
It is true that in France, we have some laws that protect people against forced contracts or uneducated signatures and that we have ways of canceling some in certains circumstances. In any way, since every country has laws that can be contradictory and since the laws do not apply based on your nationality, there is no way to say that theses french mecanisms can applied.
In my opinion, if he signed an amercian contrat, since coL does not have a company headquater in France, they have no obligation to respect french laws. But, normally when you work in the states as a foreigner you should get a visa. What I want to say is that we don't how theses contract are done and who is right.
Notice, that we don't really know what happened, what was the mindset of Stephano and what pressure did he get from both sides (and maybe his familly). Even if he should respect his decisions, even more if they are contracted, he is young and we should allow him to make mistakes (which does not exclude him from honoring a contract). Especially for this kind of things, that are a really marginal in France. Just wait a little bit and hope that HE (himself) will explain what happened.
The point is, regardless of who is right in a juridic term, if Stephano was ensure of his decisions, he should have waited.
As a french esport fan since the begining, I am a bit sad of the behavior of Stephano, but keep in mind that esport should be stronger that mere nationality issues. We are the ones that should be above all that.
It's not about nationality dude, you should read the post, Millenium don't care about esport, if they do they would've make explanation on TL and answer coL emails, but they clearly stated they don't care and it will be over in 2weeks.
I know and I'm deeply ashamed of their behavior. But, note that it is only 10:50am here. At least let them some time to wake up
How could he not be sure of his decision? He was jumping between both managers to increase the biddings.
The millenium manager clearly said it wasn't the case and it has been written in previous posts so please shut up with your "jumping between managers"
I read the thing again and I couldnt find a single line of him talking about this. All i found was the statement of the coL manager: "For Mr. Page to insinuate we improperly "disoriented" a young player is an outright lie. We have spent weeks negotiating with Stephano and countering offers made by Millenium. This was no quick pressure situation."
On September 20 2011 17:57 m0ck wrote: A bit of water for the fire in the belly of the 'Stephano is killing eports' crowd.
Think about the discrepancy between the actors in power, knowledge and experience. Both in the particular and in the general. Stephano is 18 years old, just out of high school. He's a french speaker first, and knows english as a secondary language. After recent succes in SC2, he's contacted by a host of teams trying to sign 'the next big thing'.
He's now put in a situation where he has to negotiate his first professional contract by himself. This contract is negotiated in english and written into an english language contract. The team trying to hire him is represented by a lawyer. He is not so himself. Any questions he has are explained to him by representatives of the team trying to hire him. Negotiation happens over the internet with Stephano being in france/tunesia and the team trying to hire him in USA. The signing of the contract happens through a specialized internet-site.
So, who has the power? True, Stephano has the power of being the one with the talent. He decides where to take it. But who has experience with negotiating a contract? Who has the legal understanding of the implications of the contract? Who can understand the legalese of a contract? Who is a native speaker of the language of the contract and of the negotiation? Who has/is the lawyer?
The team. In this case its compLexity, but really this goes for almost all negotiating sitautions between players and teams. The situation heavily favors the established teams. In this situation, Stephano has to trust that what complexity tells him is said in the contract, is actually what is in the contract. He doesn't even have the opportunity of reading the contract in his native language.
But from the players perspective, it gets worse. Because while before the contract is written, stephano at least has the power of talent, once he signs a contract, he is out of luck. Why? Because he has no realistic way of recourse in case of a miss-represented contract or breach of the contract. What is he supposed to do? Threaten legal action against complexity? On the other hand, it may/may-not be that complexity is willing to pursue this issue in a court. That is, because of his digital signature/pressing a button on an internet-site, he faces consequences that was probably not talked about before the signing of the contract. I can't say that for sure, because maybe complexity explained to him the consequences of a breach of contract (in complexitys opinion, that is), or a change of mind, and in any case the repercussion may be stated in the contract he can't read.
What I'm trying to say is this: Though at first hand it may not seem so, legal contracts are in fact only to the advantage of the teams, not the players. When signing the contract, realistically, the players rely on the goodwill of the teams in truthfully representing the content of the contract to the player. In case of a breach on the contract, only the teams have the power and means to take legal action. Certainly so internationally. Players can only really rely on word of mouth as to whom to trust.
Now, I don't mean this to be an excuse for the actions of Stephano, though I think it's very understandable to be confused and impulsive at 18. I don't think the actions of anyone involved are showing anything beside self-interest. And though complexity may hold the legal high ground (although maybe not), I don't see much in the cancellation of a 12-hours old contract that is written in english, which signs an 18 year old frenchman with no legal representation, whose domain of legal jurisdiction is unknown, apparently without meeting in person (and yes, I think when you sign an 18 year old from another continent to a full time contract, you ought to make the effort to go and see them) to be morally outraged about.
This is a good post. I think too many people bash on Stephano here, without knowing how it is as a player who has to decide/negotiate with teams...
On September 20 2011 18:04 havox_ wrote: I've never read so much bullshit about laws and contracts in my whole life before^^ Guys, wtf, you're trying to say that in Europe you can break contracts when ever you want - and even make it sound like thats a good thing. a) thats not true and b) even if it was true, it still suxx.
Could we please stop talking about the laws and if they found a loophole for him to break out of the contract? (lawyers or a court or who ever might decide about this, not us)
The most important fact about this is: He fu***** signed a contract (everybody agrees on this), Mill tried to convince him that it suxx and he should ignore the contract. Even if for some reasons a court would decide that this was cuz of some bullshit French law... then it still suxx for eSports.
The more Frenchies try to defend the Mill/Stephano actions the more im tilting^^
Not gunna lie, I laughed quite hard when I looked and saw you were from Germany. Especially concerning this matter. But I agree completely :D
haha, sorry, but i just had to defend Europe a bit, cuz i'm really ashamed about what the ppl are talking - sounds like we're total pussys over here who live in communists world where just the employees have rights^^
Tihs is raelly a bad thing for stapenho to do because of espotrs needs to get some credibility and not haev poeple flake out on contratcs and I think he threatens eveyrthing that everyone has wokred for over teh past yaer.
EPT
