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There are some things that need to be enlighten.
First of all there are 2 versions of the story and no proof from both sides. So we can't really know what happened. Col say they made a professional approach and contract to get stephano is their roster, while Millenium was aware of this. They are a big structure in the US and I understand the respect and the upset from american people about this drama.
But, a lot of you are making wrong assertions about Millenium. Millenium is not a little structure. I guess, we can say it's one of the biggest team in EU. They have money, have a good team, pay their players and soon a practice house. They work hard to grow e-sport in France (I don't really like their protectionism) with web-TV and tournaments. They are looking to send Stephano in big competitions all around the world (including, if he gets a spot, GSL). So I don't think Millenium is a bad environment for Stephano.
The mill's version is that Col came to see stephano in the back of the team, pressure him and make him sign quickly at 5pm in france (heard on stream). Here Col is not really professional, stealing player and pressure young talent (It seems it's not the first time). Stephano got many offers and there was no drama with the others.
I'm pretty sure both teams are wrong here, Stephano is a precious player, so you can't have him or leave him easily.
But the main point is that we have no clue of what is true, who lies etc... The only thing we can keep in mind is that Stephano need a structure that fits him well. So from what we can see, he made his choice to stay in Millenium. We can be disappointed about his behaviour (I am), but this maybe is the best decision for him. And that's why we will be watching more good games from him in future.
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On September 20 2011 18:19 Gevna wrote:
There are some things that need to be enlighten.
First of all there are 2 versions of the story and no proof from both sides. So we can't really know what happened. Col say they made a professional approach and contract to get stephano is their roster, while Millenium was aware of this. They are a big structure in the US and I understand the respect and the upset from american people about this drama.
But, a lot of you are making wrong assertions about Millenium. Millenium is not a little structure. I guess, we can say it's one of the biggest team in EU. They have money, have a good team, pay their players and soon a practice house. They work hard to grow e-sport in France (I don't really like their protectionism) with web-TV and tournaments. They are looking to send Stephano in big competitions all around the world (including, if he gets a spot, GSL). So I don't think Millenium is a bad environment for Stephano.
The mill's version is that Col came to see stephano in the back of the team, pressure him and make him sign quickly at 5pm in france (heard on stream). Here Col is not really professional, stealing player and pressure young talent (It seems it's not the first time). Stephano got many offers and there was no drama with the others.
I'm pretty sure both teams are wrong here, Stephano is a precious player, so you can't have him or leave him easily.
But the main point is that we have no clue of what is true, who lies etc... The only thing we can keep in mind is that Stephano need a structure that fits him well. So from what we can see, he made his choice to stay in Millenium. We can be disappointed about his behaviour (I am), but this maybe is the best decision for him. And that's why we will be watching more good games from him in future.
If Stephano contract was finished, they were not stealing anyone and shouldn't have anything to say to them. They should have renew it beforehand. Their lost I guess...
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These kinds of legal threats on the internet a few hours after the dispute arises, are highly unprofessional.
They signed a contract with an 18-year old at 3 AM, in the middle of night. The next morning, the 18 year-old wakes up and realizes that perhaps it isn't such a good idea to quit med school and move to a different country. A mistake by him for sure, and poorly done, as he tries to back out of it.
Any reasonable person would cut the guy some slack, nor would they even let an 18-year old sign a contract at 3 AM which isn't even in his own language. CoL hasn't lost anything or invested anything in Stephano, yet they immediately decide to start legal threats over the Internet. Not because there is anything to gain from it but just in an attempt to show power.
While it is poorly done by Stephano for sure, one could certainly think that a professional esports organisation would be able to handle this better. They should just have stated "Stephano decided to stay with Millenium instead" and handled the contract issues with Millenium. There is no reason to start an internet flame war over it. Legal issues should be handled with care and discreetly, not over twitter.
You don't see General Electric, Manchested United or any other professional company post legal threats on forums or on Twitter. This is despite the fact that they likely have different disputes every day. All in all, everyone just looks like an amateur in this case. I would certainly not do business with either CoL or Stephano, as they have both showcased that they are unable to handle this professionally.
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On September 20 2011 18:26 Paladia wrote:
These kinds of legal threats on the internet a few hours after the dispute arises, are highly unprofessional.
They signed a contract with an 18-year old at 3 AM, in the middle of night. The next morning, the 18 year-old wakes up and realizes that perhaps it isn't such a good idea to quit med school and move to a different country. A mistake by him for sure, and poorly done, as he tries to back out of it.
Any reasonable person would cut the guy some slack, nor would they even let an 18-year old sign a contract at 3 AM which isn't even in his own language. CoL hasn't lost anything or invested anything in Stephano, yet they immediately decide to start legal threats over the Internet. Not because there is anything to gain from it but just in an attempt to show power.
While it is poorly done by Stephano for sure, one could certainly think that a professional esports organisation would be able to handle this better. They should just have stated "Stephano decided to stay with Millenium instead" and handled the contract issues with Millenium. There is no reason to start an internet flame war over it. Legal issues should be handled with care and discreetly, not over twitter.
You don't see General Electric, Manchested United or any other professional company post legal threats on forums or on Twitter. This is despite the fact that they likely have different disputes every day. All in all, everyone just looks like an amateur in this case. I would certainly not do business with either CoL or Stephano, as they have both showcased that they are unable to handle this professionally.
+1
User was warned for this post
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In any case, let's wait for Stephano explanations hoping that he will make up for all this ruckus!
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On September 20 2011 18:26 Paladia wrote:
These kinds of legal threats on the internet a few hours after the dispute arises, are highly unprofessional.
They signed a contract with an 18-year old at 3 AM, in the middle of night. The next morning, the 18 year-old wakes up and realizes that perhaps it isn't such a good idea to quit med school and move to a different country. A mistake by him for sure, and poorly done, as he tries to back out of it.
Any reasonable person would cut the guy some slack, nor would they even let an 18-year old sign a contract at 3 AM which isn't even in his own language. CoL hasn't lost anything or invested anything in Stephano, yet they immediately decide to start legal threats over the Internet. Not because there is anything to gain from it but just in an attempt to show power.
While it is poorly done by Stephano for sure, one could certainly think that a professional esports organisation would be able to handle this better. They should just have stated "Stephano decided to stay with Millenium instead" and handled the contract issues with Millenium. There is no reason to start an internet flame war over it. Legal issues should be handled with care and discreetly, not over twitter.
You don't see General Electric, Manchested United or any other professional company post legal threats on forums or on Twitter. This is despite the fact that they likely have different disputes every day. All in all, everyone just looks like an amateur in this case. I would certainly not do business with either CoL or Stephano, as they have both showcased that they are unable to handle this professionally.
This is quite a wishy washy post, where you take the convenient route of blaming all the parties involved, so that you appear to be correct. I strongly disagree with your approach of "blame everyone and act like a beacon of pacifism/wisdom," because most likely, one of the sides is a victim in the matter.
The evidence suggests that Stephano invited the bidding war, and was indeed interested enough to sign a contract after weeks of negotiation. Whether he was misled or not is another story, but frankly, you're not authoritative enough to dismiss the dispute as "amateurs" on both sides.
Your attempt to appear wise and distanced is probably coming at the expense of a victim, whose entire plight you're downplaying.
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On September 20 2011 18:19 Gevna wrote:
The mill's version is that Col came to see stephano in the back of the team, pressure him and make him sign quickly at 5pm in france (heard on stream). Here Col is not really professional, stealing player and pressure young talent (It seems it's not the first time). Stephano got many offers and there was no drama with the others.
The Mill's version I heard yesterday was more something like :
- Mill knews that there were teams who were talking Stephano (including Col, Acer, Mouz and others) but Stephano tells them a few days ago that he will stay with Millenium.
In their mind the subject was closed => they keep him.
Stephano just did a shitty move.
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On September 20 2011 18:39 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 18:26 Paladia wrote:
These kinds of legal threats on the internet a few hours after the dispute arises, are highly unprofessional.
They signed a contract with an 18-year old at 3 AM, in the middle of night. The next morning, the 18 year-old wakes up and realizes that perhaps it isn't such a good idea to quit med school and move to a different country. A mistake by him for sure, and poorly done, as he tries to back out of it.
Any reasonable person would cut the guy some slack, nor would they even let an 18-year old sign a contract at 3 AM which isn't even in his own language. CoL hasn't lost anything or invested anything in Stephano, yet they immediately decide to start legal threats over the Internet. Not because there is anything to gain from it but just in an attempt to show power.
While it is poorly done by Stephano for sure, one could certainly think that a professional esports organisation would be able to handle this better. They should just have stated "Stephano decided to stay with Millenium instead" and handled the contract issues with Millenium. There is no reason to start an internet flame war over it. Legal issues should be handled with care and discreetly, not over twitter.
You don't see General Electric, Manchested United or any other professional company post legal threats on forums or on Twitter. This is despite the fact that they likely have different disputes every day. All in all, everyone just looks like an amateur in this case. I would certainly not do business with either CoL or Stephano, as they have both showcased that they are unable to handle this professionally. This is quite a wishy washy post, where you take the convenient route of blaming all the parties involved, so that you appear to be correct. I strongly disagree with your approach of "blame everyone and act like a beacon of pacifism/wisdom," because most likely, one of the sides is a victim in the matter. The evidence suggests that Stephano invited the bidding war, and was indeed interested enough to sign a contract after weeks of negotiation. Whether he was misled or not is another story, but frankly, you're not authoritative enough to dismiss the dispute as "amateurs" on both sides.
What evidence? The PR statements from two competing teams? Have you seen the contract, have you seen conversations between any of the affected parties? No? Then stop using that word.
What the guy is saying is that it would have been better if Complexity and Millennium did this between themselves instead of plastering it all over teamliquid and even responding to individual reddit threads. It's hard to take any company that post information about a ongoing legal issue on twitter/reddit seriously.
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Stephano and Col. should have informed Mill about the transfer after they finished their negotiation but before the contract was signed.
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On September 20 2011 18:42 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 18:39 Brotocol wrote:On September 20 2011 18:26 Paladia wrote:
These kinds of legal threats on the internet a few hours after the dispute arises, are highly unprofessional.
They signed a contract with an 18-year old at 3 AM, in the middle of night. The next morning, the 18 year-old wakes up and realizes that perhaps it isn't such a good idea to quit med school and move to a different country. A mistake by him for sure, and poorly done, as he tries to back out of it.
Any reasonable person would cut the guy some slack, nor would they even let an 18-year old sign a contract at 3 AM which isn't even in his own language. CoL hasn't lost anything or invested anything in Stephano, yet they immediately decide to start legal threats over the Internet. Not because there is anything to gain from it but just in an attempt to show power.
While it is poorly done by Stephano for sure, one could certainly think that a professional esports organisation would be able to handle this better. They should just have stated "Stephano decided to stay with Millenium instead" and handled the contract issues with Millenium. There is no reason to start an internet flame war over it. Legal issues should be handled with care and discreetly, not over twitter.
You don't see General Electric, Manchested United or any other professional company post legal threats on forums or on Twitter. This is despite the fact that they likely have different disputes every day. All in all, everyone just looks like an amateur in this case. I would certainly not do business with either CoL or Stephano, as they have both showcased that they are unable to handle this professionally. This is quite a wishy washy post, where you take the convenient route of blaming all the parties involved, so that you appear to be correct. I strongly disagree with your approach of "blame everyone and act like a beacon of pacifism/wisdom," because most likely, one of the sides is a victim in the matter. The evidence suggests that Stephano invited the bidding war, and was indeed interested enough to sign a contract after weeks of negotiation. Whether he was misled or not is another story, but frankly, you're not authoritative enough to dismiss the dispute as "amateurs" on both sides. What evidence? The PR statements from two competing teams? Have you seen the contract, have you seen conversations between any of the affected parties? No? Then stop using that word. What the guy is saying is that it would have been better if Complexity and Millennium did this between themselves instead of plastering it all over teamliquid and even responding to individual reddit threads. It's hard to take any company that use twitter and reddit to convey points about a ongoing issue seriously.
- The different stories both acknowledge the bidding war. That's evidence enough for the point made.
- Public relations involve a public. "They should've kept it among themselves" - Why? Who are you to say that?
Transparency is generally a good thing. Why does their PR policy even matter to you, anyway? As far as I can tell, you're just using it as a crutch so you can find something to blame both sides for.
Either side choosing to express themselves where they see fit has NOTHING to do with the verdict. That entire arc is a red herring, designed to make cool-sounding inflammatory posts like "OMG such amateurs." But someone here definitely got victimized, and this kind of post is insulting to whoever that may be.
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The regional bias in this thread is pretty disgusting, how about form an opinion for yourself instead of side with the company from your region in the world. I don't agree with people's point about complexity threatening legal action being wrong in some way. Business' need to be able to protect their interests with legal action, if contracts aren't worthy of enforcing, why even bother in the first place? Why would a company take responsibility for their side of the contract if the people signing it don't take it seriously enough to uphold their end? Totally defeats the purpose of even having a contract in the first place.
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On September 20 2011 18:46 MarKeD wrote:
The regional bias in this thread is pretty disgusting, how about form an opinion for yourself instead of side with the company from your region in the world. I don't agree with people's point about complexity threatening legal action being wrong in some way. Business' need to be able to protect their interests with legal action, if contracts aren't worthy of enforcing, why even bother in the first place? Why would a company take responsibility for their side of the contract if the people signing it don't take it seriously enough to uphold their end? Totally defeats the purpose of even having a contract in the first place.
I only see a regional bias from one region...
As we said, some signed contract can be void, in France (at least).
This summing up everything, I'm off this thread.
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Can people stop posting about how stephano signed a contract early morning(later night) in a foreign language to him. It's been clearly said enough times, stephano has had multiple versions of the contract, over the last few weeks. It wasn't some pressure thing forced onto him at 3 in the morning.
Also there is nothing 'sneaky' about approaching a player (regardless of sport) and talking to them about what they are doing after their contract expires. I don't know how many of you follow sport, but if a players contract is known to run out at the end of the season, they are offered new contracts months before(sometimes longer) theirs runs out. Mill didn't offer stephano a contract that was worth him accepting, so once his original had ran out (if he was even under contract before...) col got him to sign theirs.
There was nothing sneaky or wrong done by complexity, some people are so ignorant it's unreal. They aren't some backdoor organization that do things on the sly.
Stephano took advantage of a good situation for him, however he did it wrong. From reading everything it sounds like Mill are completely in the wrong, and it wouldn't supprise me if thing would come back to haunt them in the future, i mean, who wants to associate with an organization that basically lie/steal?(this is pretty much what they've done, nothing you can say can actually argue against that)
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Every player transfer should be done like the Huk's transfer from TL to EG.
Nnobody knows a detail of how it was done, both team seems to be agreed
And they both released a news at the exact same time. IIRC.
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On September 20 2011 17:04 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 16:57 MasterReY wrote:
I really hope complexity sues stephano over this, not because i dont like stephano or i want complexity to get money etc., but as a statement to esports that contracts have to be respected in order to get a bit professionalism in this.
And dont talk about stephano getting misinformed by tricky sentences or grammar......
He is 18 and should know how to read. Dont act like he is a 10-year-old kid.
At his age he should be fully responsible for hsi actions. And what if the contract DIDN'T fullfill all the requirements and was in fact quite aweful? How come people can say stuff like "They should sue him" when they have no idea what the contract said or what really happened? All we have are two teams who both do PR, one saying the contract isn't valid and one saying it probably is. How fucking hard can it be to wait and see?
I thought Millenium indirectly admitted the contract is valid by saying they lured stephano in to sign it.
Wouldn't be a big deal if it was invalid. So i guess both sides know the contract is valid, Millenium is just critizising the way complexity got Stephano to sign it (which is Stephanos fault to get lured into something he should completely understand before doing it).
If Millenium directly said the contract is officially not valid then i apologize, but please provide source for that.
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On September 20 2011 18:45 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 18:42 karpo wrote:On September 20 2011 18:39 Brotocol wrote:On September 20 2011 18:26 Paladia wrote:
These kinds of legal threats on the internet a few hours after the dispute arises, are highly unprofessional.
They signed a contract with an 18-year old at 3 AM, in the middle of night. The next morning, the 18 year-old wakes up and realizes that perhaps it isn't such a good idea to quit med school and move to a different country. A mistake by him for sure, and poorly done, as he tries to back out of it.
Any reasonable person would cut the guy some slack, nor would they even let an 18-year old sign a contract at 3 AM which isn't even in his own language. CoL hasn't lost anything or invested anything in Stephano, yet they immediately decide to start legal threats over the Internet. Not because there is anything to gain from it but just in an attempt to show power.
While it is poorly done by Stephano for sure, one could certainly think that a professional esports organisation would be able to handle this better. They should just have stated "Stephano decided to stay with Millenium instead" and handled the contract issues with Millenium. There is no reason to start an internet flame war over it. Legal issues should be handled with care and discreetly, not over twitter.
You don't see General Electric, Manchested United or any other professional company post legal threats on forums or on Twitter. This is despite the fact that they likely have different disputes every day. All in all, everyone just looks like an amateur in this case. I would certainly not do business with either CoL or Stephano, as they have both showcased that they are unable to handle this professionally. This is quite a wishy washy post, where you take the convenient route of blaming all the parties involved, so that you appear to be correct. I strongly disagree with your approach of "blame everyone and act like a beacon of pacifism/wisdom," because most likely, one of the sides is a victim in the matter. The evidence suggests that Stephano invited the bidding war, and was indeed interested enough to sign a contract after weeks of negotiation. Whether he was misled or not is another story, but frankly, you're not authoritative enough to dismiss the dispute as "amateurs" on both sides. What evidence? The PR statements from two competing teams? Have you seen the contract, have you seen conversations between any of the affected parties? No? Then stop using that word. What the guy is saying is that it would have been better if Complexity and Millennium did this between themselves instead of plastering it all over teamliquid and even responding to individual reddit threads. It's hard to take any company that use twitter and reddit to convey points about a ongoing issue seriously. - The different stories both acknowledge the bidding war. That's evidence enough for the point made. - Public relations involve a public. "They should've kept it among themselves" - Why? Who are you to say that? Transparency is generally a good thing. Why does their PR policy even matter to you, anyway? As far as I can tell, you're just using it as a crutch so you can find something to blame both sides for. Either side choosing to express themselves where they see fit has NOTHING to do with the verdict.
I responded to you because you complained when someone said that posting threats of legal action just a day after something like this doesn't look professional. And i still think it doesn't. There's a difference between transparency and what we have here. What we have is more of a "he said, she said" than anything else.
Keeping it to themselves would have probably turned out in a couple of different ways, all better than having the fanbase shittalk both parties and making up all kinds of stupid shit based on nothing. Would have looked alot more professional if there was a post in a week or two about Stephano being released from Complexity and Complexity suing Millenium OR Stephano staying in Millennium due to backing out of the Complexity contract based on french laws. Now we've had 3-4 threads with bashing, idiotic suggestions of bans and people making up all kinds of stupid stories.
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Like i previously said:
coL annoucment was supposed to be made in on week and not immediately after the contract has been signed according to his moderator on his justintv stream. drama begun with this too quick announcment by coL
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On September 20 2011 18:55 MasterReY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 17:04 karpo wrote:On September 20 2011 16:57 MasterReY wrote:
I really hope complexity sues stephano over this, not because i dont like stephano or i want complexity to get money etc., but as a statement to esports that contracts have to be respected in order to get a bit professionalism in this.
And dont talk about stephano getting misinformed by tricky sentences or grammar......
He is 18 and should know how to read. Dont act like he is a 10-year-old kid.
At his age he should be fully responsible for hsi actions. And what if the contract DIDN'T fullfill all the requirements and was in fact quite aweful? How come people can say stuff like "They should sue him" when they have no idea what the contract said or what really happened? All we have are two teams who both do PR, one saying the contract isn't valid and one saying it probably is. How fucking hard can it be to wait and see? I thought Millenium indirectly admitted the contract is valid by saying they lured stephano in to sign it. Wouldn't be a big deal if it was invalid. So i guess both sides know the contract is valid, Millenium is just critizising the way complexity got Stephano to sign it (which is Stephanos fault to get lured into something he should completely understand before doing it). If Millenium directly said the contract is officially not valid then i apologize, but please provide source for that.
The source is the manager of millenium SC2 team that said it live on his stream yesterday, that is a fact, whether what he is saying is true or not, that's just opinions.
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If both parties want to battle this out in the public, then they should make all data available to the public, this includes primarily the contract signed by stephano on the side of complexity. Anyways, since both parties agree on the fact that Stephano signed something with complexity, I'll believe it for now.
From the looks of the "stories" (can't call them facts yet when no evidence was made public), Millenium was deliberately searching for something (which might very well be legally solid) to make the signed contract of Stephano invalid, so I don't really approve of that. Stephano as well, he shouldn't sign anything that he does not agree with.
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EPT
