Lack of content, flaming (of the French or anyone) and useless posts will be punished. Please keep it from being too inflammatory and keep discussion on-topic. -semioldguy (p.103)
On September 20 2011 17:37 Plague1503 wrote: I don't know with which team Stephano SIGNED the contract first (or if it was legally binding), but whichever he did, that team claims the rights to him. It's as simple as that.
The techniques used by Complexity to recruit Stephano were quite disorienting to influence our young player towards a bad decision. After a long discussion, Stephano understood his mistake and decided to stay with Millenium for the next 12 months.
This sounds shady as fuck, especially the bolded part. I HOPE it's only the translation, otherwise this sounds like something straight out of a Bond villain's mouth.
first thing that came to mind when i read that lol
On September 20 2011 17:43 Merlimoo wrote: I think it is time to stop bitching around.
It is known that American and French (most likely european or just none american) have a different way of considering business and contrats in general. It is well known that french people find absurd the way americans tend to sue people for everything. In any case, it is a matter of difference of culture and no one should even try to judge or comment that.
It is true that in France, we have some laws that protect people against forced contracts or uneducated signatures and that we have ways of canceling some in certains circumstances. In any way, since every country has laws that can be contradictory and since the laws do not apply based on your nationality, there is no way to say that theses french mecanisms can applied.
In my opinion, if he signed an amercian contrat, since coL does not have a company headquater in France, they have no obligation to respect french laws. But, normally when you work in the states as a foreigner you should get a visa. What I want to say is that we don't how theses contract are done and who is right.
Notice, that we don't really know what happened, what was the mindset of Stephano and what pressure did he get from both sides (and maybe his familly). Even if he should respect his decisions, even more if they are contracted, he is young and we should allow him to make mistakes (which does not exclude him from honoring a contract). Especially for this kind of things, that are a really marginal in France. Just wait a little bit and hope that HE (himself) will explain what happened.
The point is, regardless of who is right in a juridic term, if Stephano was ensure of his decisions, he should have waited.
As a french esport fan since the begining, I am a bit sad of the behavior of Stephano, but keep in mind that esport should be stronger that mere nationality issues. We are the ones that should be above all that.
Yeah, do you know what happens when you make a mistake?
On September 20 2011 17:12 BrahCJ wrote: When I was 18 I went to a car dealership and bought a car. While signing they also managed to talk me into a "Car protection program' which would warrant my car against a whole long list of things.
After signing and walking out, I was told that the majority of problems cars will have are "wear and tear" and that none of those would be covered.
I fought the contact, and lost, and paid for the protection program that I never used/wanted/needed. Then I took this lesson into the next car I bought, and had a big "fuck you" ready for the next dealer when they offered me the same scheme.
At 18 life is about lessons. Complexity need to push the issue here to send the message home to not only Stephano but also any other young, impressionable players.
Well thats in Australia,US and other barbaric countries. Here in EU we can void a contract up to a week after signing.
PS. Thats why in Col contract it was stated they would use a US cjudge....
On September 20 2011 17:43 Merlimoo wrote: I think it is time to stop bitching around.
It is known that American and French (most likely european or just none american) have a different way of considering business and contrats in general. It is well known that french people find absurd the way americans tend to sue people for everything. In any case, it is a matter of difference of culture and no one should even try to judge or comment that.
It is true that in France, we have some laws that protect people against forced contracts or uneducated signatures and that we have ways of canceling some in certains circumstances. In any way, since every country has laws that can be contradictory and since the laws do not apply based on your nationality, there is no way to say that theses french mecanisms can applied.
In my opinion, if he signed an amercian contrat, since coL does not have a company headquater in France, they have no obligation to respect french laws. But, normally when you work in the states as a foreigner you should get a visa. What I want to say is that we don't how theses contract are done and who is right.
Notice, that we don't really know what happened, what was the mindset of Stephano and what pressure did he get from both sides (and maybe his familly). Even if he should respect his decisions, even more if they are contracted, he is young and we should allow him to make mistakes (which does not exclude him from honoring a contract). Especially for this kind of things, that are a really marginal in France. Just wait a little bit and hope that HE (himself) will explain what happened.
The point is, regardless of who is right in a juridic term, if Stephano was ensure of his decisions, he should have waited.
As a french esport fan since the begining, I am a bit sad of the behavior of Stephano, but keep in mind that esport should be stronger that mere nationality issues. We are the ones that should be above all that.
It's not about nationality dude, you should read the post, Millenium don't care about esport, if they do they would've make explanation on TL and answer coL emails, but they clearly stated they don't care and it will be over in 2weeks.
On September 20 2011 17:43 Merlimoo wrote: I think it is time to stop bitching around.
It is known that American and French (most likely european or just none american) have a different way of considering business and contrats in general. It is well known that french people find absurd the way americans tend to sue people for everything. In any case, it is a matter of difference of culture and no one should even try to judge or comment that.
It is true that in France, we have some laws that protect people against forced contracts or uneducated signatures and that we have ways of canceling some in certains circumstances. In any way, since every country has laws that can be contradictory and since the laws do not apply based on your nationality, there is no way to say that theses french mecanisms can applied.
In my opinion, if he signed an amercian contrat, since coL does not have a company headquater in France, they have no obligation to respect french laws. But, normally when you work in the states as a foreigner you should get a visa. What I want to say is that we don't how theses contract are done and who is right.
Notice, that we don't really know what happened, what was the mindset of Stephano and what pressure did he get from both sides (and maybe his familly). Even if he should respect his decisions, even more if they are contracted, he is young and we should allow him to make mistakes (which does not exclude him from honoring a contract). Especially for this kind of things, that are a really marginal in France. Just wait a little bit and hope that HE (himself) will explain what happened.
The point is, regardless of who is right in a juridic term, if Stephano was ensure of his decisions, he should have waited.
As a french esport fan since the begining, I am a bit sad of the behavior of Stephano, but keep in mind that esport should be stronger that mere nationality issues. We are the ones that should be above all that.
Yeah, do you know what happens when you make a mistake?
On September 20 2011 17:43 Merlimoo wrote: I think it is time to stop bitching around.
It is known that American and French (most likely european or just none american) have a different way of considering business and contrats in general. It is well known that french people find absurd the way americans tend to sue people for everything. In any case, it is a matter of difference of culture and no one should even try to judge or comment that.
It is true that in France, we have some laws that protect people against forced contracts or uneducated signatures and that we have ways of canceling some in certains circumstances. In any way, since every country has laws that can be contradictory and since the laws do not apply based on your nationality, there is no way to say that theses french mecanisms can applied.
In my opinion, if he signed an amercian contrat, since coL does not have a company headquater in France, they have no obligation to respect french laws. But, normally when you work in the states as a foreigner you should get a visa. What I want to say is that we don't how theses contract are done and who is right.
Notice, that we don't really know what happened, what was the mindset of Stephano and what pressure did he get from both sides (and maybe his familly). Even if he should respect his decisions, even more if they are contracted, he is young and we should allow him to make mistakes (which does not exclude him from honoring a contract). Especially for this kind of things, that are a really marginal in France. Just wait a little bit and hope that HE (himself) will explain what happened.
The point is, regardless of who is right in a juridic term, if Stephano was ensure of his decisions, he should have waited.
As a french esport fan since the begining, I am a bit sad of the behavior of Stephano, but keep in mind that esport should be stronger that mere nationality issues. We are the ones that should be above all that.
It's not about nationality dude, you should read the post, Millenium don't care about esport, if they do they would've make explanation on TL and answer coL emails, but they clearly stated they don't care and it will be over in 2weeks.
I know and I'm deeply ashamed of their behavior. But, note that it is only 10:50am here. At least let them some time to wake up
On September 20 2011 17:17 benKrO71 wrote: ( I apologize for my poor English )
It is a pity to see that people are interested in the team millenium when it is about an absurd drama (see the size of the topics).
On the other hand when Mill organizes a online tournaments (which takes place today), nobody seems Interested... Nevertheless the invited players are the best in europe
thorzain, whitera, stephano , nerchio etc (all the top EU ) ... and just 18 reply in the post : s pathetic
On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote: what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:
Stephano signs contract with col
Stephano change his mind
coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it
Stephano and mil look like idiots
case closed
All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
you forgot
now people don't care about contracts because they can just "change their mind"
do you somehow genuinely think that people shouldn't be allowed to quit their job? what century are you from?
do you somehow genuinely think that people should just sign a _legal contract_ and be allowed to just say "fuck it I don't need to do it lolololol" what century are you from?
stephano did not sign a legal contract. he signed something a jumped-up american idiot thought would bind him under Texas law. doesn't work that way, and no french court would extradite him for it.
So a legally binding contract is not a legal contract ? Shit, world doesn't make sense anymore. Hate will prevail as usual.
it wasn't a legally binding contract. there's more to making a contract legally binding than a piece of paper, some words, and a signature. those words must have valid form, and legitimate function.
If it has the signature of the person who agrees to it then it is legally binding, what do you not understand?
that's false. contracts are legal documents in which two or more parties agree to exchange goods or perform services; that's all. they can only promise certain things, and can only operate in certain ways. if you just write some words on a piece of paper and sign it, that's no guarantee it will have any legal meaning.
Well considering we are all making wild assumptions; let's have a go.
Complexity is apparently a professionally run organisation that is employing contracts to retain and sign players; Jason Lake has been in this business a long time, and has had players poached and sniped (read: Counter strike) - he knows what's involved. I assume (<-- grand assumption) this was not just some napkin with a few scribbles on it with some dollar signs - it may have been properly drafted. A properly drafted contract will usually specify which country's laws are to apply in the event of a dispute so the fact that you just keep assuming all of the stuff you've spouted in this thread is pretty hilarious.
The French and US legal systems are two completely different systems founded upon fundamentally different ideas; i can keep pretending that i know all the details and what will happen but that seems to be your job. There are so many possibilities in this scenario that how you are coming to your conclusions is pretty impressive - maybe there was a cooling off period? Maybe, if US laws apply, there is a ton of weight behind Stephano's signature being on the document (having something signed is a big deal in contract law in terms of consent and understanding the agreement) or maybe Stephano didn't sign anything and this is a massive conspiracy against team Mill
You are making wild assumption but your post seem so much smarter then gulbanana's. US and France are based on anglosaxonian/Continental law system. But that could be relevant only if contract was signed in USA. Therefore, French's law would be applied if Stephano signed it on French terrain which is more possible. There is no grace period or so btw, Stephano became a coL player with signing that contract, and by any world's law his later contract with Mill must be void. There should be huge hole in contract to make it possible for him to leave for Mill again. Changing his mind should cost him a fee which should be going to coL as a team. And btw jurisdiction of contract doesent necessarily have to be in a contract, it's written in International Penalty Law (or however is translation).
I feel sorry for coL and I hope they will get money from Mill and with that bring some better Zerg out there like DImaga or so.
On September 20 2011 17:12 BrahCJ wrote: When I was 18 I went to a car dealership and bought a car. While signing they also managed to talk me into a "Car protection program' which would warrant my car against a whole long list of things.
After signing and walking out, I was told that the majority of problems cars will have are "wear and tear" and that none of those would be covered.
I fought the contact, and lost, and paid for the protection program that I never used/wanted/needed. Then I took this lesson into the next car I bought, and had a big "fuck you" ready for the next dealer when they offered me the same scheme.
At 18 life is about lessons. Complexity need to push the issue here to send the message home to not only Stephano but also any other young, impressionable players.
Well thats in Australia,US and other barbaric countries. Here in EU we can void a contract up to a week after signing.
PS. Thats why in Col contract it was stated they would use a US cjudge....
As much as I understand the voiding of contracts within a time limit, moves like these will definitely make foreigner teams very very weary of signing up pros. Not to mention, a move like this will ruin Stephano's future career, unless he goes around winning Dreamhack, MLG's, and GSL's, he's practically kryptonite. Any pro teams worst nightmare is having to deal with legal issues such as this, and will most likely never going to approach Stephano after this incident.
This also draws to precedent, that if he voids his contract with coL, a lot of EU players can just use "signed contract" as a threat to get his original team to bid higher. (not saying this is what happened in this case, but could very well happen later on).
roflmao what is this a troll war he was playing on catzes stream 2 days ago and stephano seemed excited to join CoL i dont personally belive one bit that complexity gaming pressured him seems to me that millenium did the pressuring and then used the young player response.....
My opinions do not represent the opinions of ViDa-Gaming..... thought idd add that in there
Im not gonna go into my opinions regarding the legality of this issue since I do not believe I am qualified but the posts in the OP make Mill seem like it is run by crazy people and Col is being screwed over for normal business practices. I hope Mill and stephano speak soon. Ill leave the legal matters to the lawyers, but it would give me peace of mind if every side has some reasonable/logical basis for their action.
On September 20 2011 17:17 benKrO71 wrote: ( I apologize for my poor English )
It is a pity to see that people are interested in the team millenium when it is about an absurd drama (see the size of the topics).
On the other hand when Mill organizes a online tournaments (which takes place today), nobody seems Interested... Nevertheless the invited players are the best in europe
thorzain, whitera, stephano , nerchio etc (all the top EU ) ... and just 18 reply in the post : s pathetic
im confused. hypothetically, if this were to go to court, would it be french or american? if he's a french citizen (im assuming), and he signs a contract from an american corporation, does it follow american or french laws?
On September 20 2011 17:37 Plague1503 wrote: I don't know with which team Stephano SIGNED the contract first (or if it was legally binding), but whichever he did, that team claims the rights to him. It's as simple as that.
The techniques used by Complexity to recruit Stephano were quite disorienting to influence our young player towards a bad decision. After a long discussion, Stephano understood his mistake and decided to stay with Millenium for the next 12 months.
This sounds shady as fuck, especially the bolded part. I HOPE it's only the translation, otherwise this sounds like something straight out of a Bond villain's mouth.
On September 20 2011 17:43 Merlimoo wrote: I think it is time to stop bitching around.
It is known that American and French (most likely european or just none american) have a different way of considering business and contrats in general. It is well known that french people find absurd the way americans tend to sue people for everything. In any case, it is a matter of difference of culture and no one should even try to judge or comment that.
It is true that in France, we have some laws that protect people against forced contracts or uneducated signatures and that we have ways of canceling some in certains circumstances. In any way, since every country has laws that can be contradictory and since the laws do not apply based on your nationality, there is no way to say that theses french mecanisms can applied.
In my opinion, if he signed an amercian contrat, since coL does not have a company headquater in France, they have no obligation to respect french laws. But, normally when you work in the states as a foreigner you should get a visa. What I want to say is that we don't how theses contract are done and who is right.
Notice, that we don't really know what happened, what was the mindset of Stephano and what pressure did he get from both sides (and maybe his familly). Even if he should respect his decisions, even more if they are contracted, he is young and we should allow him to make mistakes (which does not exclude him from honoring a contract). Especially for this kind of things, that are a really marginal in France. Just wait a little bit and hope that HE (himself) will explain what happened.
The point is, regardless of who is right in a juridic term, if Stephano was ensure of his decisions, he should have waited.
As a french esport fan since the begining, I am a bit sad of the behavior of Stephano, but keep in mind that esport should be stronger that mere nationality issues. We are the ones that should be above all that.
Yeah, do you know what happens when you make a mistake?
On September 20 2011 17:37 Plague1503 wrote: I don't know with which team Stephano SIGNED the contract first (or if it was legally binding), but whichever he did, that team claims the rights to him. It's as simple as that.
The techniques used by Complexity to recruit Stephano were quite disorienting to influence our young player towards a bad decision. After a long discussion, Stephano understood his mistake and decided to stay with Millenium for the next 12 months.
This sounds shady as fuck, especially the bolded part. I HOPE it's only the translation, otherwise this sounds like something straight out of a Bond villain's mouth.
On September 20 2011 17:43 Merlimoo wrote: I think it is time to stop bitching around.
It is known that American and French (most likely european or just none american) have a different way of considering business and contrats in general. It is well known that french people find absurd the way americans tend to sue people for everything. In any case, it is a matter of difference of culture and no one should even try to judge or comment that.
It is true that in France, we have some laws that protect people against forced contracts or uneducated signatures and that we have ways of canceling some in certains circumstances. In any way, since every country has laws that can be contradictory and since the laws do not apply based on your nationality, there is no way to say that theses french mecanisms can applied.
In my opinion, if he signed an amercian contrat, since coL does not have a company headquater in France, they have no obligation to respect french laws. But, normally when you work in the states as a foreigner you should get a visa. What I want to say is that we don't how theses contract are done and who is right.
Notice, that we don't really know what happened, what was the mindset of Stephano and what pressure did he get from both sides (and maybe his familly). Even if he should respect his decisions, even more if they are contracted, he is young and we should allow him to make mistakes (which does not exclude him from honoring a contract). Especially for this kind of things, that are a really marginal in France. Just wait a little bit and hope that HE (himself) will explain what happened.
The point is, regardless of who is right in a juridic term, if Stephano was ensure of his decisions, he should have waited.
As a french esport fan since the begining, I am a bit sad of the behavior of Stephano, but keep in mind that esport should be stronger that mere nationality issues. We are the ones that should be above all that.
You dont have a clue what are you talking about eh? Forced contract is kind of contract that is signed by use of Absolute force, compulsive force or threat, and I dont see that's possible. Pressure from family or each teams is normal circumstance in all kind of business.
On September 20 2011 17:54 alexlw92 wrote: im confused. hypothetically, if this were to go to court, would it be french or american? if he's a french citizen (im assuming), and he signs a contract from an american corporation, does it follow american or french laws?
The problem is that there aren't enough lawyers on Team Liquid to answer these simple questions. :p
We just have to wait and see.
On September 20 2011 17:56 Boonbag wrote: lol hes 18 he isn't young wtf haha
EPT
