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MyNameWuzBoB
57 Posts
On September 02 2011 17:31 luRx_ wrote: So many people doing the "you can't tell people what to do with their own money!!" as they run down the street pumping their fist. As if that's the be all end all issue here. What a compelling argument you make. Sir you have swayed me with your words. | ||
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luRx_
31 Posts
On September 02 2011 17:29 Oktyabr wrote: This. You guys can always stop watching their games entirely, you know. Don't watch a single stream of theirs, don't pay for their VODs. It's not like your dissatisfaction won't show. Sponsors are interested in players who capture positive attention. You get to make a personal choice with your time and your money. Who argued otherwise? I didn't know this was being debated. | ||
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DrTJEckleburg
United States1080 Posts
The condescending attitude that is being expressed by ReignFayth(forgive me, no other progamer is really posting in this thread as much as you) is not appropriate. Yes, you may be getting these prize winnings and it may be an extremely low amount of money to support your hard lifestyle or the hardships you surely endure; unfortunately, your situation means nothing to me in terms of legitimacy and professionalism. Where else do you see this type of behavior in sports? It's an honest question, I may just be ignorant but it's not like Jimmie Johnson of NASCAR shares with his teammate Jeff Gordon because they finish 1-2 in a season or whatever. Honestly, do you really think this many people(spectators) would find this unacceptable or illegitimate purely because of the fact that we are all ignorant to your progaming lifestyles and society? Not all of us are people out for blood and drama, I rarely post on this forum or particpate in eSports anymore, but that doesn't mean my judgment is impaired. Please understand that we have concerns about the direction that this may take Starcraft II as an eSport just the same as steroids affects baseball(obviously steroids would be cheating as opposed to this though.) The vibe I get is that you feel it is okay to do because it's always been done apparently(from WC3, though I don't think I(or my team, of course) ever considered splitting in the dozens upon dozens of CS LANs I participated in throughout the years.) Labeling an entire community of people as ignorant and mis-informed is only a way to make yourself look worse; same with TT1 threatening to leave the TL community because he is being judged for his actions? Ridiculous. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8068 Posts
On September 02 2011 17:31 luRx_ wrote: So many people doing the "you can't tell people what to do with their own money!!" as they run down the street pumping their fist. As if that's the be all end all issue here. If the issue is whetever or not to regulate how people use their money, then yes, "You can't tell people what to do with their own money!" is an all end to the issue. | ||
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luRx_
31 Posts
On September 02 2011 17:34 MyNameWuzBoB wrote: What a compelling argument you make. Sir you have swayed me with your words. Well I only got the 2nd place ribbon on my wall so it makes me happy to have swayed the 1st place winner. I always knew I'd redeem myself after all these years! | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On September 02 2011 17:34 luRx_ wrote: Who argued otherwise? I didn't know this was being debated. GOOD, great. We have struck a common ground. Are we done then? Can we do that? Can we be done? | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On September 02 2011 17:29 Oktyabr wrote: This. You guys can always stop watching their games entirely, you know. Don't watch a single stream of theirs, don't pay for their VODs. It's not like your dissatisfaction won't show. Sponsors are interested in players who capture positive attention. You get to make a personal choice with your time and your money. This. I stopped watching Professional baseball with all the steroid scandals. I stopped watching NBA with the strike (although technically, there isn't much choice here). I stopped watching certain Hollywood actors because they can't keep their personal opinions to themselves and decide to tell me what I should think. You vote with your wallet in these situations. If you don't like something, turn away. E-sports is exactly the same. If the perception of tournaments is that they lack integrity because of backroom deals between the "competitors", then sponsorship revenue suffers and thus so does prize money. | ||
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luRx_
31 Posts
On September 02 2011 17:36 Medrea wrote: GOOD, great. We have struck a common ground. Are we done then? Can we do that? Can we be done? That was my point... I didn't think we ever even started a debate over his seemingly irrelevant point about people being able to make personal choices with time and money. | ||
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grs
Germany2339 Posts
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mazqo
Finland368 Posts
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
On September 02 2011 17:34 Excludos wrote: I don't think theres any male out there who wouldn't agree to this deal xD No kidding. Infact if word of that deal reach our ears and Inca won, we'd all be raging at him for not throwing the matches! | ||
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MyNameWuzBoB
57 Posts
On September 02 2011 17:43 mazqo wrote: Idiots, do you seriously think progamerz want to play bo5 for lets say 5000$? Obv 50-50 split is stupid, instead, give winner 60% etc.. so atleast they play for something. Many people watch poker and they are making deals all the time, so who the fuck cares if finalist makes a deal to play for less money to win. Stop using logic. It's not allowed in this thread. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On September 02 2011 17:49 Kaitlin wrote: Over 50 pages in this thread and not once has anyone shown that "deal making" is acceptable to the only people who have a say in the matter, and that is the event organizers and sponsors. If, and only if, they say it's ok, is it ok. Well those guys are generally supported by the spectators anyway. Still, I follow and agree with your path of reasoning. | ||
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insaneMicro
Germany761 Posts
On September 02 2011 17:37 Kaitlin wrote: This. I stopped watching Professional baseball with all the steroid scandals. I stopped watching NBA with the strike (although technically, there isn't much choice here). I stopped watching certain Hollywood actors because they can't keep their personal opinions to themselves and decide to tell me what I should think. You vote with your wallet in these situations. If you don't like something, turn away. E-sports is exactly the same. If the perception of tournaments is that they lack integrity because of backroom deals between the "competitors", then sponsorship revenue suffers and thus so does prize money. Are you aware that in today's sports competition, nearly everyone near the top is doping? I mean it's totally fine if you don't want to watch any longer, but I really think you need to start considering there's a difference from what you're told and what actually happens. This is really no different. You can pile on TT1 as much as you want, but in reality even the darlings of progaming make deals. And how can you hate on them for that? They are pretty smart, hardworking guys who play videogames for your enjoyment instead of doing mainstream careers. Most of them would be considered poor or broke by western standards, so they try to reduce variance by sharing tournament money with their friends. Economic incentives in action. The spectator entitlement ITT is really quite sickening. Edit to not doublepost: On September 02 2011 17:49 Kaitlin wrote: Over 50 pages in this thread and not once has anyone shown that "deal making" is acceptable to the only people who have a say in the matter, and that is the event organizers and sponsors. If, and only if, they say it's ok, is it ok. No. The only people who have a say on what to do with their winnings are competitors themselves. How could you even consider otherwise? | ||
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Linkirvana
Netherlands365 Posts
It's a bit of a tough call this one, surely I understand that progamers live off of the prize money, so as was said before, gambling X money could seem unreasonable for progamers. However, the money is up for grabs because we spectators will tune in to see them gamble that money. So technically, this isn't something progamers should do, you know what you got yourself into, so don't start doing some of this crap because it is detrimental to the competetiveness, which should be at it's peak in the finals, not at the lowest. However, ignorance is bliss, if I don't know it's going on and it's not obvious that this is happening (I read somewhere TT1 went 1base carriers against Fenix?) then I have nothing to complain about ofcourse. | ||
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Truedot
444 Posts
On September 02 2011 17:35 DrTJEckleburg wrote: I don't see how the argument of "it's the player's money, let them share it if the want" holds any merit. It is completely true that it is there money to spend as they please, obviously in any way they prefer whether for rent, food, or pornography, etc. The condescending attitude that is being expressed by ReignFayth(forgive me, no other progamer is really posting in this thread as much as you) is not appropriate. Yes, you may be getting these prize winnings and it may be an extremely low amount of money to support your hard lifestyle or the hardships you surely endure; unfortunately, your situation means nothing to me in terms of legitimacy and professionalism. Where else do you see this type of behavior in sports? It's an honest question, I may just be ignorant but it's not like Jimmie Johnson of NASCAR shares with his teammate Jeff Gordon because they finish 1-2 in a season or whatever. Honestly, do you really think this many people(spectators) would find this unacceptable or illegitimate purely because of the fact that we are all ignorant to your progaming lifestyles and society? Not all of us are people out for blood and drama, I rarely post on this forum or particpate in eSports anymore, but that doesn't mean my judgment is impaired. Please understand that we have concerns about the direction that this may take Starcraft II as an eSport just the same as steroids affects baseball(obviously steroids would be cheating as opposed to this though.) The vibe I get is that you feel it is okay to do because it's always been done apparently(from WC3, though I don't think I(or my team, of course) ever considered splitting in the dozens upon dozens of CS LANs I participated in throughout the years.) Labeling an entire community of people as ignorant and mis-informed is only a way to make yourself look worse; same with TT1 threatening to leave the TL community because he is being judged for his actions? Ridiculous. its really simple: its technically NOT their money at all, not until it transfers ownership after the games. therefore, the tournament can decide what to do with it. They havent won it yet, so its not theirs at all. And you cant agree to give away someone elses money. If you agree to a split beforehand it becomes okay AFTER getting the money. But, the tournament gives players money on the basis that they are seriously competing for it. So, players that do this are really cheating the tournament by not providing what they're being paid to provide. As such, this is basically fraud. And people wonder why microsoft, RIAA, MPAA, and ISPs like comcast and such are so shady. Its your lives people, and you're making it by saying its Okay to commit fraud as long as two friends benefit from it. Enron, people? This kind of thinking is exactly the reason Activision/blizzard didn't put LAN in, why DRM exists, and so on. because at the end of the day you all have to face up to it, lots of people here work for those companies, and companies are instilled with values solely by the employees and owners. So there. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On September 02 2011 18:03 Truedot wrote: its really simple: its technically NOT their money at all, not until it transfers ownership after the games. therefore, the tournament can decide what to do with it. They havent won it yet, so its not theirs at all. And you cant agree to give away someone elses money. If you agree to a split beforehand it becomes okay AFTER getting the money. But, the tournament gives players money on the basis that they are seriously competing for it. So, players that do this are really cheating the tournament by not providing what they're being paid to provide. As such, this is basically fraud. And people wonder why microsoft, RIAA, MPAA, and ISPs like comcast and such are so shady. Its your lives people, and you're making it by saying its Okay to commit fraud as long as two friends benefit from it. Enron, people? If it gets out of hand a tournament can refuse to pay. It is included in a lot of places. That's probably the best direct stopgap that there is at the moment. You might be reaching a little far though... | ||
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PredY
Czech Republic1731 Posts
if there is a tournament where the first place takes all, would you rather win 0 or 50% of 10k ? or in first seasons of GSLs it was: Winner: 100,000,000 KRW (aprox. $85,700 USD) Runner-Up: 30,000,000 KRW (aprox. $25,700 USD) not my fault for such ridiculous PM structure. It's 60k for a bo7 ffs | ||
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MyNameWuzBoB
57 Posts
On September 02 2011 18:03 Truedot wrote: its really simple: its technically NOT their money at all, not until it transfers ownership after the games. therefore, the tournament can decide what to do with it. They havent won it yet, so its not theirs at all. And you cant agree to give away someone elses money. If you agree to a split beforehand it becomes okay AFTER getting the money. But, the tournament gives players money on the basis that they are seriously competing for it. So, players that do this are really cheating the tournament by not providing what they're being paid to provide. As such, this is basically fraud. And people wonder why microsoft, RIAA, MPAA, and ISPs like comcast and such are so shady. Its your lives people, and you're making it by saying its Okay to commit fraud as long as two friends benefit from it. Enron, people? It's not their money? Where the fuck do you think the people running the tournament gets the money from? Oh that's right, from people watching the games. And who plays in the games? Yep, you guessed it, the players. What kind of messed up world do you live in where it's fraud for two people to make an agreement between themselves? | ||
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