|
anyway i find it funny how fans/spectators claim the pros doing that are being selfish when on the other hand, the spectators themselves are being much more selfish about it
|
On September 02 2011 17:10 vrok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:00 Excludos wrote:On September 02 2011 16:58 vrok wrote:
Giving away some of your prize money after winning to the second place finisher is fine. Agreeing to do this before the match takes place is illegal. Entering such an agreement and doing '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing and should result in a ban from entering any respectable competitions. Period.
If you think it's fine because you can get away with it, I don't care, you'll have to live with being a disgrace to your profession. If you end up a dumbass and it gets made public, we will fucking crucify you. You need to learn the difference between match fixing and money splitting. One does not include the other. You need to learn to read. I wrote that the agreement itself is illegal. The '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing. One does not include the other. Both are illegal, one is worse than the other. As evidenced by the other thread, some people indeed can't tell the difference.
Thats the thing. Both aren't illegal. Splitting winnings is NOT illegal. In fact there is no way to enforce it. You can not possible tell 2 players what to do with their money. Most players will have more integrity than to just onebase carrier rush because they agreed to split the money. And as have been commented on before. There is more value in winning than the momentary value of price money. Fans, sponsors, streamviewers, etc is all things that you only get by winning.
Splitting the price money can often be an issue about whetever or not people can continue playing starcraft 2. Players need money to keep afloat.
|
On September 02 2011 17:15 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:13 dtz wrote:On September 02 2011 16:50 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:43 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 16:42 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:40 ketomai wrote:On September 02 2011 16:37 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On September 02 2011 16:33 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:29 babylon wrote:
[quote]
1st: $100
2nd: $50
The two players agree beforehand that the winner will buy the loser a $25 dinner. Is this immoral? Will this affect the outcome of the match? You tell me. You know what? I have a better response. It doesn't matter. If its known that between the two people and EVERYONE WATCHING the 1st place winner pays the 2nd place person a 25 dollar dinner. Sure go for it. At least people are knowledgable. But don't do it under the table. Wait, so any economic dealing that players make have to be made public now, as well? That's ridiculous. Its also extraordinarily prevalent (public salaries are very common). Then tell me the salary of Huk or Idra. Or tell me the salary of your coworkers/Boss. You probably can't tell me :p. Financial matters should stay private. Yes I can tell you a lot of the salaries of my co-workers. Or in the very least a bracket. And in many sports salaries are public for a very good reason. clearly you won't change your mind about this, if you're not happy about it stop watching it, I'm going to keep watching and so are thousands of other people Hmmm. Maybe there is a better outlook than what meets the eye. Smaller tournaments are more vulnerable to this kind of action. Because they have less intangibles to offer. Correct? Larger tournaments are probably more immune as the intangible benefits start to really outweigh the earnings. To be truly honest. I'm not 100 percent against the split across all tournaments large and small. I am, however, 100 percent against it being kept a secret from me however, it just rubs me the wrong way. I would like to at least know that nothing is on the line for these two players, and I would probably be ok with it to some degree. I am not being unreasonable I think. But there always is. Say that Nestea and Losira did decide to prize split. They would still play their games seriously. Why? Because who is the 3 time GSL champion ,the invincible god of zerg who is worshipped by Artosis and the whole starcraft community and who is that " 2nd best zerg on IM who has never won a GSL before" Just like Fenix will be remembered in history as Gamecune, Mexico 2010 Champion while TT1 was runner up. True, and I agree mostly anyway. But what about the fact that Nestea won undefeated? Maybe nestea winning was always going to happen, but to not drop a game the entire season? I dunno there is some grey area there that might need exploring.
would it feel more real to you if it went 4-2 instead, cuz they could stage that, instead they opted to play as they would have and whatever happens happens
|
Guys, we really should be taking this seriously. It really can, and really will, ruin esports. Tomorrow. At 9.41am eastern standard time. You heard it here first.
Really though, I don't see the problem with that. Yes, a prior agreement to share the money could influence the games, but you have not really proved that it will influence them for the worse.
For one, they are agreeing to share the money, so both have no reason to tank games.
Two, they might play without any pressure and therefore give us better games. Everyone here knows of situations where finals sucked because one guy was too nervous. In fact, going on your logic that we need to protect e-sports as a spectator sport, perhaps we should allow people to do this seeing as it might potentially lead to better games :b
|
On September 02 2011 17:17 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:10 vrok wrote:On September 02 2011 17:00 Excludos wrote:On September 02 2011 16:58 vrok wrote:
Giving away some of your prize money after winning to the second place finisher is fine. Agreeing to do this before the match takes place is illegal. Entering such an agreement and doing '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing and should result in a ban from entering any respectable competitions. Period.
If you think it's fine because you can get away with it, I don't care, you'll have to live with being a disgrace to your profession. If you end up a dumbass and it gets made public, we will fucking crucify you. You need to learn the difference between match fixing and money splitting. One does not include the other. You need to learn to read. I wrote that the agreement itself is illegal. The '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing. One does not include the other. Both are illegal, one is worse than the other. As evidenced by the other thread, some people indeed can't tell the difference. Thats the thing. Both aren't illegal. Splitting winnings is NOT illegal. In fact there is no way to enforce it. You can not possible tell 2 players what to do with their money. Most players will have more integrity than to just onebase carrier rush because they agreed to split the money. And as have been commented on before. There is more value in winning than the momentary value of price money. Fans, sponsors, streamviewers, etc is all things that you only get by winning. Splitting the price money can often be an issue about whetever or not people can continue playing starcraft 2. Players need money to keep afloat.
Quote from my original post:
If you think it's fine because you can get away with it, I don't care, you'll have to live with being a disgrace to your profession. If you end up a dumbass and it gets made public, we will fucking crucify you.
|
On September 02 2011 17:16 ReignFayth wrote:
anyway i find it funny how fans/spectators claim the pros doing that are being selfish when on the other hand, the spectators themselves are being much more selfish about it
What you do is fueled by us. Without us spectators you don't get paid to play.
|
On September 02 2011 17:16 ReignFayth wrote:
anyway i find it funny how fans/spectators claim the pros doing that are being selfish when on the other hand, the spectators themselves are being much more selfish about it
Well, not only am I watcher and supporter of e-sports. I have also supported VTgaming with written articles which have been posted and such which take from my personal time. I didn't even get paid for it and I doubt I even want to. And I still have mod access to the site afaik.
I don't find it so selfish to ask for at least the basic knowledge that the top two competitors have a side bet. Especially when my time is or was a factor in your life.
|
well, as a viewer i dont care about the money they are winning as 1st oder 2nd etc.
i care about entertainment and imo if the share the price money, where the actual match results become irrelevant, there is a much higher possibility that they do funny strats oder super entertaining matches in a final instead of boring metagame-strategies.
sure it is not said that without the consens there wouldnt be entertaining matches but i think, when there is nothing on the line, players will do riskier things, which is mostly entertaining
|
On September 02 2011 17:21 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:16 ReignFayth wrote:
anyway i find it funny how fans/spectators claim the pros doing that are being selfish when on the other hand, the spectators themselves are being much more selfish about it What you do is fueled by us. Without us spectators you don't get paid to play.
Spectators aren't entitled to anything but games.
Games are provided. Whether or not they'll be good and a product of a progamer's full effort is another thing entirely. Of course, it's in the players' best interests to provide good games ... but really, they don't have to.
|
On September 02 2011 17:19 iba001 wrote:
Guys, we really should be taking this seriously. It really can, and really will, ruin esports. Tomorrow. At 9.41am eastern standard time. You heard it here first.
Really though, I don't see the problem with that. Yes, a prior agreement to share the money could influence the games, but you have not really proved that it will influence them for the worse.
For one, they are agreeing to share the money, so both have no reason to tank games.
Two, they might play without any pressure and therefore give us better games. Everyone here knows of situations where finals sucked because one guy was too nervous. In fact, going on your logic that we need to protect e-sports as a spectator sport, perhaps we should allow people to do this seeing as it might potentially lead to better games :b
Well, hell, if it's the pressure of the competition and the discrepancy of the prizes for 1st and 2nd place, we should unite and get these tournaments to drop their prize pools to amounts that don't put the players under so much unwanted pressure...
|
On September 02 2011 17:19 vrok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:17 Excludos wrote:On September 02 2011 17:10 vrok wrote:On September 02 2011 17:00 Excludos wrote:On September 02 2011 16:58 vrok wrote:
Giving away some of your prize money after winning to the second place finisher is fine. Agreeing to do this before the match takes place is illegal. Entering such an agreement and doing '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing and should result in a ban from entering any respectable competitions. Period.
If you think it's fine because you can get away with it, I don't care, you'll have to live with being a disgrace to your profession. If you end up a dumbass and it gets made public, we will fucking crucify you. You need to learn the difference between match fixing and money splitting. One does not include the other. You need to learn to read. I wrote that the agreement itself is illegal. The '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing. One does not include the other. Both are illegal, one is worse than the other. As evidenced by the other thread, some people indeed can't tell the difference. Thats the thing. Both aren't illegal. Splitting winnings is NOT illegal. In fact there is no way to enforce it. You can not possible tell 2 players what to do with their money. Most players will have more integrity than to just onebase carrier rush because they agreed to split the money. And as have been commented on before. There is more value in winning than the momentary value of price money. Fans, sponsors, streamviewers, etc is all things that you only get by winning. Splitting the price money can often be an issue about whetever or not people can continue playing starcraft 2. Players need money to keep afloat. Quote from my original post: Show nested quote +If you think it's fine because you can get away with it, I don't care, you'll have to live with being a disgrace to your profession. If you end up a dumbass and it gets made public, we will fucking crucify you.
Then go crucify these players who need money to be able to continue the game you love. I'll just use a quote from someone who hit the spot perfectly:
On September 02 2011 16:57 Osmoses wrote:
As a matter of principle, I suppose it's not OK.
In a world not populated by unicorns and magical little ponies however, I see no problem with this.
|
I'm just going to end with this:
1. You cannot tell players what to do with their own money
2. The negative impact it has on games is debatable. People in this thread are running under the false assumption that deals make games less enjoyable for the viewers.
3. There is no way to regulate it even if you wanted to make it illegal
4. There are still incentives to win even though the prize is chopped.
5. Some people may find 1 base carrier games interesting. What makes a good game is subjective.
|
Well it would be kinda lame if everyone did it, but I see nothing wrong if teammates or friends do it. I think they will still train and play their best, at least in bigger tournaments, because first place is an honor and might get you something cool like a golden mouse in the future and additionally bigger salary increase then 2nd place.
|
On September 02 2011 17:23 eighteen8 wrote:
well, as a viewer i dont care about the money they are winning as 1st oder 2nd etc.
i care about entertainment and imo if the share the price money, where the actual match results become irrelevant, there is a much higher possibility that they do funny strats oder super entertaining matches in a final instead of boring metagame-strategies.
sure it is not said that without the consens there wouldnt be entertaining matches but i think, when there is nothing on the line, players will do riskier things, which is mostly entertaining
So you want to turn SC2 into wrestling, were fights are 'constructed' and fake?
I cant believe what im reading in this thread :<
A deal-making WILL affect the games in some way, thats a huge problem imo.
|
On September 02 2011 17:15 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:13 dtz wrote:On September 02 2011 16:50 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:43 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 16:42 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:40 ketomai wrote:On September 02 2011 16:37 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On September 02 2011 16:33 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:29 babylon wrote:
[quote]
1st: $100
2nd: $50
The two players agree beforehand that the winner will buy the loser a $25 dinner. Is this immoral? Will this affect the outcome of the match? You tell me. You know what? I have a better response. It doesn't matter. If its known that between the two people and EVERYONE WATCHING the 1st place winner pays the 2nd place person a 25 dollar dinner. Sure go for it. At least people are knowledgable. But don't do it under the table. Wait, so any economic dealing that players make have to be made public now, as well? That's ridiculous. Its also extraordinarily prevalent (public salaries are very common). Then tell me the salary of Huk or Idra. Or tell me the salary of your coworkers/Boss. You probably can't tell me :p. Financial matters should stay private. Yes I can tell you a lot of the salaries of my co-workers. Or in the very least a bracket. And in many sports salaries are public for a very good reason. clearly you won't change your mind about this, if you're not happy about it stop watching it, I'm going to keep watching and so are thousands of other people Hmmm. Maybe there is a better outlook than what meets the eye. Smaller tournaments are more vulnerable to this kind of action. Because they have less intangibles to offer. Correct? Larger tournaments are probably more immune as the intangible benefits start to really outweigh the earnings. To be truly honest. I'm not 100 percent against the split across all tournaments large and small. I am, however, 100 percent against it being kept a secret from me however, it just rubs me the wrong way. I would like to at least know that nothing is on the line for these two players, and I would probably be ok with it to some degree. I am not being unreasonable I think. But there always is. Say that Nestea and Losira did decide to prize split. They would still play their games seriously. Why? Because who is the 3 time GSL champion ,the invincible god of zerg who is worshipped by Artosis and the whole starcraft community and who is that " 2nd best zerg on IM who has never won a GSL before" Just like Fenix will be remembered in history as Gamecune, Mexico 2010 Champion while TT1 was runner up. True, and I agree mostly anyway. But what about the fact that Nestea won undefeated? Maybe nestea winning was always going to happen, but to not drop a game the entire season? I dunno there is some grey area there that might need exploring.
Well I mean Inca did throw the series against Nestea in their finals
Scandal!!!!!
/sarcasmoff
|
On September 02 2011 17:23 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:21 Orcasgt24 wrote:On September 02 2011 17:16 ReignFayth wrote:
anyway i find it funny how fans/spectators claim the pros doing that are being selfish when on the other hand, the spectators themselves are being much more selfish about it What you do is fueled by us. Without us spectators you don't get paid to play. Spectators aren't entitled to anything but games. Games are provided. Whether or not they'll be good and a product of a progamer's full effort is another thing entirely. Of course, it's in the players' best interests to provide good games ... but really, they don't have to.
This. You guys can always stop watching their games entirely, you know. Don't watch a single stream of theirs, don't pay for their VODs. It's not like your dissatisfaction won't show. Sponsors are interested in players who capture positive attention. You get to make a personal choice with your time and your money.
|
I wouldn't say it is unethical, but why should it be a 50/50 split? For example, if a tournament pays out 50k to first, 25k to second, why not agree to split as 40k/35k and still leave an incentive to win?
|
So many people doing the "you can't tell people what to do with their own money!!" as they run down the street pumping their fist.
As if that's the be all end all issue here.
|
On September 02 2011 17:29 Shaetan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:15 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 17:13 dtz wrote:On September 02 2011 16:50 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:43 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 16:42 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:40 ketomai wrote:On September 02 2011 16:37 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On September 02 2011 16:33 Medrea wrote:
[quote]
You know what? I have a better response. It doesn't matter.
If its known that between the two people and EVERYONE WATCHING the 1st place winner pays the 2nd place person a 25 dollar dinner. Sure go for it. At least people are knowledgable. But don't do it under the table.
Wait, so any economic dealing that players make have to be made public now, as well? That's ridiculous. Its also extraordinarily prevalent (public salaries are very common). Then tell me the salary of Huk or Idra. Or tell me the salary of your coworkers/Boss. You probably can't tell me :p. Financial matters should stay private. Yes I can tell you a lot of the salaries of my co-workers. Or in the very least a bracket. And in many sports salaries are public for a very good reason. clearly you won't change your mind about this, if you're not happy about it stop watching it, I'm going to keep watching and so are thousands of other people Hmmm. Maybe there is a better outlook than what meets the eye. Smaller tournaments are more vulnerable to this kind of action. Because they have less intangibles to offer. Correct? Larger tournaments are probably more immune as the intangible benefits start to really outweigh the earnings. To be truly honest. I'm not 100 percent against the split across all tournaments large and small. I am, however, 100 percent against it being kept a secret from me however, it just rubs me the wrong way. I would like to at least know that nothing is on the line for these two players, and I would probably be ok with it to some degree. I am not being unreasonable I think. But there always is. Say that Nestea and Losira did decide to prize split. They would still play their games seriously. Why? Because who is the 3 time GSL champion ,the invincible god of zerg who is worshipped by Artosis and the whole starcraft community and who is that " 2nd best zerg on IM who has never won a GSL before" Just like Fenix will be remembered in history as Gamecune, Mexico 2010 Champion while TT1 was runner up. True, and I agree mostly anyway. But what about the fact that Nestea won undefeated? Maybe nestea winning was always going to happen, but to not drop a game the entire season? I dunno there is some grey area there that might need exploring. Well I mean Inca did throw the series against Nestea in their finals Scandal!!!!!/sarcasmoff
Lol thats pretty funny. I missed that one. Poor Inca. He said he prepared so much for it and then when it came down for it he just cracked and couldnt stop DT rushing.
|
On September 02 2011 17:29 Shaetan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:15 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 17:13 dtz wrote:On September 02 2011 16:50 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:43 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 16:42 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:40 ketomai wrote:On September 02 2011 16:37 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On September 02 2011 16:33 Medrea wrote:
[quote]
You know what? I have a better response. It doesn't matter.
If its known that between the two people and EVERYONE WATCHING the 1st place winner pays the 2nd place person a 25 dollar dinner. Sure go for it. At least people are knowledgable. But don't do it under the table.
Wait, so any economic dealing that players make have to be made public now, as well? That's ridiculous. Its also extraordinarily prevalent (public salaries are very common). Then tell me the salary of Huk or Idra. Or tell me the salary of your coworkers/Boss. You probably can't tell me :p. Financial matters should stay private. Yes I can tell you a lot of the salaries of my co-workers. Or in the very least a bracket. And in many sports salaries are public for a very good reason. clearly you won't change your mind about this, if you're not happy about it stop watching it, I'm going to keep watching and so are thousands of other people Hmmm. Maybe there is a better outlook than what meets the eye. Smaller tournaments are more vulnerable to this kind of action. Because they have less intangibles to offer. Correct? Larger tournaments are probably more immune as the intangible benefits start to really outweigh the earnings. To be truly honest. I'm not 100 percent against the split across all tournaments large and small. I am, however, 100 percent against it being kept a secret from me however, it just rubs me the wrong way. I would like to at least know that nothing is on the line for these two players, and I would probably be ok with it to some degree. I am not being unreasonable I think. But there always is. Say that Nestea and Losira did decide to prize split. They would still play their games seriously. Why? Because who is the 3 time GSL champion ,the invincible god of zerg who is worshipped by Artosis and the whole starcraft community and who is that " 2nd best zerg on IM who has never won a GSL before" Just like Fenix will be remembered in history as Gamecune, Mexico 2010 Champion while TT1 was runner up. True, and I agree mostly anyway. But what about the fact that Nestea won undefeated? Maybe nestea winning was always going to happen, but to not drop a game the entire season? I dunno there is some grey area there that might need exploring. Well I mean Inca did throw the series against Nestea in their finals Scandal!!!!!/sarcasmoff
I don't think theres any male out there who wouldn't agree to this deal xD
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
