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On September 02 2011 16:57 Osmoses wrote:
As a matter of principle, I suppose it's not OK.
In a world not populated by unicorns and magical little ponies however, I see no problem with this.
that made me lol xD
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On September 02 2011 17:00 luRx_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 16:54 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 16:51 MaestroSC wrote:On September 02 2011 16:47 Kaitlin wrote:Lots of comments about people being able to do whatever they want with their money after the tournament. It's not about what happens after the games are played, it's the agreement entered into before the games are played that affects the integrity of the event. On September 02 2011 16:36 Rekrul wrote:
The problem with this kind of stuff is that there is absolutely no way to stop it if the two are smart about it. All we can ask is that to any potential people doing this to keep the games legit and never let anyone find out about your deals because theres no point. It seems to me that your view is that you realize it's against the rules, but you're ok with it as long as nobody finds out ? His view is that it is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to regulate. And that it really doesnt affect the games as much as some people think. And that it IS GOING TO HAPPEN. So crying and whining about it is useless. And I dont think he said it was against the rules, but that some stuck up ignorant people, might find it morally incorrect. We should force players to make sure they eat breakfast before big games. If they don't eat breakfast it may impact the games. Also we should ban players if they don't get at least 8 hours a sleep beforehand. /s Something tells me you won 4th grade debate in elementary school.
Got the ribbon hanging on my wall.
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On September 02 2011 17:00 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 16:58 vrok wrote:
Giving away some of your prize money after winning to the second place finisher is fine. Agreeing to do this before the match takes place is illegal. Entering such an agreement and doing '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing and should result in a ban from entering any respectable competitions. Period.
If you think it's fine because you can get away with it, I don't care, you'll have to live with being a disgrace to your profession. If you end up a dumbass and it gets made public, we will fucking crucify you. I dont understand how you became the collective voice of tournament watchers. Why dont you just say "I WILL HATE YOU" because you think its more threatening when its "WE!" ? But you dont speak for everyone... ? You are the voice and moral judge of e-sports followers and I dont even know your name/face. I feel like I should have gotten to vote on this.
Look at the polls. Look at the comments in the other thread. I am not alone.
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If players made more money then there wouldn't be so much of a reason for them to do this. Like the OP stated, they' can't afford to gamble 5000$ but are happy to each guarantee 2500$. I fully understand why they're doing this although it goes against the spirit of competition in my eyes and sucks ballz.
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If I met my friend and practice partner in a final I would make the deal and then give a good game. How can you try to make it "illegal" (lol) for one person to give another 2500 after the show is over?
People are free to do what they want with their money no SC2 organisation or cause will change that.
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On September 02 2011 16:42 luRx_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 16:29 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 16:20 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:19 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 16:16 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:15 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 16:12 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:07 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 16:01 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 15:59 redFF wrote:
I don't understand how this is even debatable, doing this basically makes a mockery of the tournament, of the fans and of the game, it's stupid and unprofessional. What is even funnier is that people are calling out fenix for not giving TT1 half of the money he won. I mean we've seen some pretty silly drama on tl as of late but this really takes the cake. so you do agree with fenix backing out of a deal once he WON? what if fenix had lost, you really think he would have backed off? Don't even bother. No point arguing with him. I just love the hypocrites in this thread who claim to be all about game integrity and honor but see nothing wrong with someone backing out on their word. Splitting the winnings of a match and backing out of the deal to split the winnings of a match can BOTH be bad. How is it bad? Are people being forced into these deals? You want to tell two people what they can do with their own money. Gotcha. Yes? Don't make backroom deals that invalidate the integrity of the match? Or if you do, make it public knowledge at least. This has to be like, a lot of peoples first medium for competing, I don't get it. And how do these deals invalidate the integrity of the match? Oh wait that's right they don't. It's none of anyone's business what they do with their finances. Of course they do. Knowing that your gonna get paid the same win or lose affects the match. 1st: $100 2nd: $50 The two players agree beforehand that the winner will buy the loser a $25 dinner. Is this immoral? Will this affect the outcome of the match? You tell me. In that scenario, probably not. But carrying your numbers over to a different tournament of higher prizes: 1st: $5,000 2nd: $2,500 The two players agree beforehand that the winner will buy the loser a $1,250 dinner. Is this immoral? Will it affect the outcome of the match? You tell me. As the prizes increase, the likeness of the match being affected also increases. You reducing the prize amounts to small figures doesn't show anything and is certainly not grounds for the rule. It's more the exception. That's like making a 1-inch gas engine and saying a gallon of gas will run it continuously for months so you've cured oil dependency. As if that's going to do anything once the size of the engine increases.
I've made my position clear already, and I don't see how the price discrepancy should affect it. If it's wrong in one situation, it should be wrong in every other situation as well, especially for something such as this. This isn't situational morality we're talking about here. People are objecting to this, AFAIK, because they're afraid that the matches are being "tampered" with indirectly. Yes, you are right in that a higher prize leads to a higher chance of the match being affected -- but you also can't say that a smaller prize means that the match won't be "tampered" with at all either.
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On September 02 2011 17:03 vrok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:00 MaestroSC wrote:On September 02 2011 16:58 vrok wrote:
Giving away some of your prize money after winning to the second place finisher is fine. Agreeing to do this before the match takes place is illegal. Entering such an agreement and doing '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing and should result in a ban from entering any respectable competitions. Period.
If you think it's fine because you can get away with it, I don't care, you'll have to live with being a disgrace to your profession. If you end up a dumbass and it gets made public, we will fucking crucify you. I dont understand how you became the collective voice of tournament watchers. Why dont you just say "I WILL HATE YOU" because you think its more threatening when its "WE!" ? But you dont speak for everyone... ? You are the voice and moral judge of e-sports followers and I dont even know your name/face. I feel like I should have gotten to vote on this. Look at the polls. Look at the comments in the other thread. I am not alone.
Your pretty much in the majority, just realize its a conversational dead-end and vocality is never evenly split.
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This doesn't seem like a problem to me. Just because they split the money, doesn't mean they have nothing to play for. Getting first is a lot more prestigious than getting second, and it will help improve their reputation and regard to win
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On September 02 2011 17:03 vrok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:00 MaestroSC wrote:On September 02 2011 16:58 vrok wrote:
Giving away some of your prize money after winning to the second place finisher is fine. Agreeing to do this before the match takes place is illegal. Entering such an agreement and doing '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing and should result in a ban from entering any respectable competitions. Period.
If you think it's fine because you can get away with it, I don't care, you'll have to live with being a disgrace to your profession. If you end up a dumbass and it gets made public, we will fucking crucify you. I dont understand how you became the collective voice of tournament watchers. Why dont you just say "I WILL HATE YOU" because you think its more threatening when its "WE!" ? But you dont speak for everyone... ? You are the voice and moral judge of e-sports followers and I dont even know your name/face. I feel like I should have gotten to vote on this. Look at the polls. Look at the comments in the other thread. I am not alone.
Where was the poll about crucifying players...? I have re read the first post about 15 times trying to figure out where he wrote that we are going to start crucifying people...
Its just interesting, because I think I would have remembered voting on something as important as crucifying someone.
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If it does not hurt the quality of the games (wich it can but doesnt have to) I dont really care since the money the pros get is not on any concern for the viewer.
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On September 02 2011 17:03 leveller wrote:
If I met my friend and practice partner in a final I would make the deal and then give a good game. How can you try to make it "illegal" (lol) for one person to give another 2500 after the show is over?
People are free to do what they want with their money no SC2 organisation or cause will change that.
We're not necessarily talking about a rule in the law books and calling the police to arrest someone for spending their money against SC2 tournament rules. And that person spending time in jail. It's more about tournament rules and tournament enforcement, such as not allowing players to participate in future tournaments if they break the rules. Tournaments having rules and enforcing them that way is pretty prevalent in most sports... don't know where you've been.
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Deal making is fine, just don't 1 base carrier rush when you do make a deal.
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+ Show Spoiler +I know we're almost on page 50 and it's probably been discussed, but in case it hasn't or has been forgotten...
I don't have a problem with players saying "I don't like how this tournament awards SO much more money to the winner than the #2 player, let's (all or final 2 w/e) agree that we'll change the prize pool to 50/50, 51/49, or 70/30." + Show Spoiler +This could of course be an issue when it's time to report winnings for tax purposes but that's a whole other topic.
Yes, there is a (possibly valid) fear that if there isn't enough incentive to win players won't put on entertaining matches. We see several players skip or use a coin toss to determine some lower level placements because there is no longer any motivation to play (MLG points for example). However, I still think that the prestige along with the competitive nature of the players would still produce good matches and finals.
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On September 02 2011 17:00 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 16:58 vrok wrote:
Giving away some of your prize money after winning to the second place finisher is fine. Agreeing to do this before the match takes place is illegal. Entering such an agreement and doing '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing and should result in a ban from entering any respectable competitions. Period.
If you think it's fine because you can get away with it, I don't care, you'll have to live with being a disgrace to your profession. If you end up a dumbass and it gets made public, we will fucking crucify you. You need to learn the difference between match fixing and money splitting. One does not include the other.
You need to learn to read. I wrote that the agreement itself is illegal. The '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing. One does not include the other. Both are illegal, one is worse than the other. As evidenced by the other thread, some people indeed can't tell the difference.
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On September 02 2011 17:10 vrok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:00 Excludos wrote:On September 02 2011 16:58 vrok wrote:
Giving away some of your prize money after winning to the second place finisher is fine. Agreeing to do this before the match takes place is illegal. Entering such an agreement and doing '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing and should result in a ban from entering any respectable competitions. Period.
If you think it's fine because you can get away with it, I don't care, you'll have to live with being a disgrace to your profession. If you end up a dumbass and it gets made public, we will fucking crucify you. You need to learn the difference between match fixing and money splitting. One does not include the other. You need to learn to read. I wrote that the agreement itself is illegal. The '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing. One does not include the other. Both are illegal, one is worse than the other.
rofl at claiming money splitting is illegal.... in canada it's pretty legal, pretty sure it is in USA too, and most likely in your country
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Well the OP question is pretty stupid, as answer is right there, given by most of your governments.
IT IS ILLEGAL. Imagine if someone is betting real money on matches, or even fake money in some league with prozes to the winner. Their dealings are screwing the competition. They can go to jail for that. True, it is very hard to prove, but it shouldnt be accepatable in any way. I lost a lot of respect for some players mentioned in this thread, they are equall to maphackers in my eyes, cheaters simple as that.
It shouldnt be tolarated by fans.
It shouldnt be tolerated by tournament organizers.
It shouldnt be tolerated by other players either.
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On September 02 2011 16:50 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 16:43 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 16:42 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:40 ketomai wrote:On September 02 2011 16:37 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On September 02 2011 16:33 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:29 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 16:20 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:19 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:
[quote]
And how do these deals invalidate the integrity of the match? Oh wait that's right they don't.
It's none of anyone's business what they do with their finances.
Of course they do. Knowing that your gonna get paid the same win or lose affects the match. 1st: $100 2nd: $50 The two players agree beforehand that the winner will buy the loser a $25 dinner. Is this immoral? Will this affect the outcome of the match? You tell me. You know what? I have a better response. It doesn't matter. If its known that between the two people and EVERYONE WATCHING the 1st place winner pays the 2nd place person a 25 dollar dinner. Sure go for it. At least people are knowledgable. But don't do it under the table. Wait, so any economic dealing that players make have to be made public now, as well? That's ridiculous. Its also extraordinarily prevalent (public salaries are very common). Then tell me the salary of Huk or Idra. Or tell me the salary of your coworkers/Boss. You probably can't tell me :p. Financial matters should stay private. Yes I can tell you a lot of the salaries of my co-workers. Or in the very least a bracket. And in many sports salaries are public for a very good reason. clearly you won't change your mind about this, if you're not happy about it stop watching it, I'm going to keep watching and so are thousands of other people Hmmm. Maybe there is a better outlook than what meets the eye. Smaller tournaments are more vulnerable to this kind of action. Because they have less intangibles to offer. Correct? Larger tournaments are probably more immune as the intangible benefits start to really outweigh the earnings. To be truly honest. I'm not 100 percent against the split across all tournaments large and small. I am, however, 100 percent against it being kept a secret from me however, it just rubs me the wrong way. I would like to at least know that nothing is on the line for these two players, and I would probably be ok with it to some degree. I am not being unreasonable I think.
But there always is. Say that Nestea and Losira did decide to prize split. They would still play their games seriously.
Why?
Because who is the 3 time GSL champion ,the invincible god of zerg who is worshipped by Artosis and the whole starcraft community and who is that " 2nd best zerg on IM who has never won a GSL before"
Just like Fenix will be remembered in history as Gamecune, Mexico 2010 Champion while TT1 was runner up.
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On September 02 2011 17:11 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:10 vrok wrote:On September 02 2011 17:00 Excludos wrote:On September 02 2011 16:58 vrok wrote:
Giving away some of your prize money after winning to the second place finisher is fine. Agreeing to do this before the match takes place is illegal. Entering such an agreement and doing '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing and should result in a ban from entering any respectable competitions. Period.
If you think it's fine because you can get away with it, I don't care, you'll have to live with being a disgrace to your profession. If you end up a dumbass and it gets made public, we will fucking crucify you. You need to learn the difference between match fixing and money splitting. One does not include the other. You need to learn to read. I wrote that the agreement itself is illegal. The '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing. One does not include the other. Both are illegal, one is worse than the other. rofl at claiming money splitting is illegal.... in canada it's pretty legal, pretty sure it is in USA too, and most likely in your country
I think by illegal he, and the op, are stating that it should be against all tournament regulations.
Not as in literally against the law of the United States of America, or any other country really. Although I am not privy with betting laws period.
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On September 02 2011 17:11 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:10 vrok wrote:On September 02 2011 17:00 Excludos wrote:On September 02 2011 16:58 vrok wrote:
Giving away some of your prize money after winning to the second place finisher is fine. Agreeing to do this before the match takes place is illegal. Entering such an agreement and doing '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing and should result in a ban from entering any respectable competitions. Period.
If you think it's fine because you can get away with it, I don't care, you'll have to live with being a disgrace to your profession. If you end up a dumbass and it gets made public, we will fucking crucify you. You need to learn the difference between match fixing and money splitting. One does not include the other. You need to learn to read. I wrote that the agreement itself is illegal. The '1base carrier rush lols' is match fixing. One does not include the other. Both are illegal, one is worse than the other. rofl at claiming money splitting is illegal.... in canada it's pretty legal, pretty sure it is in USA too, and most likely in your country
I was never talking about sovereign law in the first place but I'm not surprised you didn't understand that. Either way, I edited my post before he posted that, but he responded to my original post so I had to respond in context with my unedited post.
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On September 02 2011 17:13 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 16:50 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:43 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 16:42 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:40 ketomai wrote:On September 02 2011 16:37 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On September 02 2011 16:33 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 16:29 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 16:20 Medrea wrote:
[quote]
Of course they do. Knowing that your gonna get paid the same win or lose affects the match. 1st: $100 2nd: $50 The two players agree beforehand that the winner will buy the loser a $25 dinner. Is this immoral? Will this affect the outcome of the match? You tell me. You know what? I have a better response. It doesn't matter. If its known that between the two people and EVERYONE WATCHING the 1st place winner pays the 2nd place person a 25 dollar dinner. Sure go for it. At least people are knowledgable. But don't do it under the table. Wait, so any economic dealing that players make have to be made public now, as well? That's ridiculous. Its also extraordinarily prevalent (public salaries are very common). Then tell me the salary of Huk or Idra. Or tell me the salary of your coworkers/Boss. You probably can't tell me :p. Financial matters should stay private. Yes I can tell you a lot of the salaries of my co-workers. Or in the very least a bracket. And in many sports salaries are public for a very good reason. clearly you won't change your mind about this, if you're not happy about it stop watching it, I'm going to keep watching and so are thousands of other people Hmmm. Maybe there is a better outlook than what meets the eye. Smaller tournaments are more vulnerable to this kind of action. Because they have less intangibles to offer. Correct? Larger tournaments are probably more immune as the intangible benefits start to really outweigh the earnings. To be truly honest. I'm not 100 percent against the split across all tournaments large and small. I am, however, 100 percent against it being kept a secret from me however, it just rubs me the wrong way. I would like to at least know that nothing is on the line for these two players, and I would probably be ok with it to some degree. I am not being unreasonable I think. But there always is. Say that Nestea and Losira did decide to prize split. They would still play their games seriously. Why? Because who is the 3 time GSL champion ,the invincible god of zerg who is worshipped by Artosis and the whole starcraft community and who is that " 2nd best zerg on IM who has never won a GSL before" Just like Fenix will be remembered in history as Gamecune, Mexico 2010 Champion while TT1 was runner up.
True, and I agree mostly anyway. But what about the fact that Nestea won undefeated? Maybe nestea winning was always going to happen, but to not drop a game the entire season? I dunno there is some grey area there that might need exploring.
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EPT
