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On September 02 2011 18:07 PredY wrote:
it's perfectly fine to do it, especially between teammates or good friends
if there is a tournament where the first place takes all, would you rather win 0 or 50% of 10k ?
or in first seasons of GSLs it was:
Winner: 100,000,000 KRW (aprox. $85,700 USD)
Runner-Up: 30,000,000 KRW (aprox. $25,700 USD)
not my fault for such ridiculous PM structure. It's 60k for a bo7 ffs
Yeah thats a very top heavy payout. I think most of us agree that overly top heavy payouts is not the greatest way to go about a tournament.
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if its 50/50 i would say it should be illigal, if its 60/50 to balance the top price out, and there's a motivation for you to play to ur best ability, and not just try to be done as quick as possible. then i think its fine.
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On September 02 2011 18:08 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 18:03 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 17:35 DrTJEckleburg wrote:
I don't see how the argument of "it's the player's money, let them share it if the want" holds any merit. It is completely true that it is there money to spend as they please, obviously in any way they prefer whether for rent, food, or pornography, etc.
The condescending attitude that is being expressed by ReignFayth(forgive me, no other progamer is really posting in this thread as much as you) is not appropriate. Yes, you may be getting these prize winnings and it may be an extremely low amount of money to support your hard lifestyle or the hardships you surely endure; unfortunately, your situation means nothing to me in terms of legitimacy and professionalism. Where else do you see this type of behavior in sports? It's an honest question, I may just be ignorant but it's not like Jimmie Johnson of NASCAR shares with his teammate Jeff Gordon because they finish 1-2 in a season or whatever.
Honestly, do you really think this many people(spectators) would find this unacceptable or illegitimate purely because of the fact that we are all ignorant to your progaming lifestyles and society? Not all of us are people out for blood and drama, I rarely post on this forum or particpate in eSports anymore, but that doesn't mean my judgment is impaired. Please understand that we have concerns about the direction that this may take Starcraft II as an eSport just the same as steroids affects baseball(obviously steroids would be cheating as opposed to this though.)
The vibe I get is that you feel it is okay to do because it's always been done apparently(from WC3, though I don't think I(or my team, of course) ever considered splitting in the dozens upon dozens of CS LANs I participated in throughout the years.) Labeling an entire community of people as ignorant and mis-informed is only a way to make yourself look worse; same with TT1 threatening to leave the TL community because he is being judged for his actions? Ridiculous. its really simple: its technically NOT their money at all, not until it transfers ownership after the games. therefore, the tournament can decide what to do with it. They havent won it yet, so its not theirs at all. And you cant agree to give away someone elses money. If you agree to a split beforehand it becomes okay AFTER getting the money. But, the tournament gives players money on the basis that they are seriously competing for it. So, players that do this are really cheating the tournament by not providing what they're being paid to provide. As such, this is basically fraud. And people wonder why microsoft, RIAA, MPAA, and ISPs like comcast and such are so shady. Its your lives people, and you're making it by saying its Okay to commit fraud as long as two friends benefit from it. Enron, people? It's not their money? Where the fuck do you think the people running the tournament gets the money from? Oh that's right, from people watching the games. And who plays in the games? Yep, you guessed it, the players. What kind of messed up world do you live in where it's fraud for two people to make an agreement between themselves?
If there is a mandatory-compete claus in the tournament specifics then a backroom deal can be seen as a breach of contract. And if the deal takes place anyway the action can legally be construed as fraud or a breach.
If it doesn't then, everything is in the all clear obviously.
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On September 02 2011 18:07 PredY wrote:
it's perfectly fine to do it, especially between teammates or good friends
if there is a tournament where the first place takes all, would you rather win 0 or 50% of 10k ?
or in first seasons of GSLs it was:
Winner: 100,000,000 KRW (aprox. $85,700 USD)
Runner-Up: 30,000,000 KRW (aprox. $25,700 USD)
not my fault for such ridiculous PM structure. It's 60k for a bo7 ffs
Ok, when did this thread start to derail into a discussion about splitting the prize....ONLY?
More and more people seem to think that way, but that's just not the case. Personally, I do not care in the slightest if you split the prize-money or not. What bothers me is, that the people involved in the incident didn't PLAY TO WIN anymore and that's just horrible for the tournament organizers, fans...esports in general. If you meet your teammate in the finals, yes, go ahead and agree on a 50/50 split. But for the love of little Jesus, at least deliver an exciting finals series, or does the "honor" of being the winner mean nothing anymore?
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I don't get how this is even a problem. This would argueably even up the quality of a finals and make the players even more competitive against eachother.
When you take the money out of the equation you have two players who really could only really care about one thing, and that's winning. That's essentially what splitting does, at least from my perspective, you remove all the "omg I need to win because I fucking need the money". Sure, by splitting the players are removing tons of pressure off their shoulders which might be considered "weak" or "non-competitive" but in the end we all just care about winning, not winning MONEY. Essentially money is just a tool to keep us doing what we love to do, playing games on a competitive level.
EDIT: I just saw the post above me. Yes that's a no-brainer. If you are splitting the money you better give it your all to win the finals or else you're a fucking dick, basically pissing on competition and the spectators.
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I dislike the idea of secret agreements to split winnings regardless of match outcome. In other cases, I'm ok with it. For example, a pro team taking a cut may be written in to a contract. That seems ok. Designating a portion of winnings going to a charity is cool too. The important distinction for me is that in the first case, the stakes of the competition are changed, but in the latter two cases, players are still competing for an opportunity to be generous.
I see where people are coming from with the "it's their money" argument but again I don't like the idea that an agreement fixes the rewards for a final before it has been played. Things like "winner buys us all drinks or dinner" are similar, IMO better, ways of sharing the love. Taking care of your friends is great, but effectively lying to your fans is a quick way to lose popularity. If you honestly believe it's ok to make arrangements, put it out in the open and see how fans and tournament officials feel.
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On September 02 2011 18:08 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 18:03 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 17:35 DrTJEckleburg wrote:
I don't see how the argument of "it's the player's money, let them share it if the want" holds any merit. It is completely true that it is there money to spend as they please, obviously in any way they prefer whether for rent, food, or pornography, etc.
The condescending attitude that is being expressed by ReignFayth(forgive me, no other progamer is really posting in this thread as much as you) is not appropriate. Yes, you may be getting these prize winnings and it may be an extremely low amount of money to support your hard lifestyle or the hardships you surely endure; unfortunately, your situation means nothing to me in terms of legitimacy and professionalism. Where else do you see this type of behavior in sports? It's an honest question, I may just be ignorant but it's not like Jimmie Johnson of NASCAR shares with his teammate Jeff Gordon because they finish 1-2 in a season or whatever.
Honestly, do you really think this many people(spectators) would find this unacceptable or illegitimate purely because of the fact that we are all ignorant to your progaming lifestyles and society? Not all of us are people out for blood and drama, I rarely post on this forum or particpate in eSports anymore, but that doesn't mean my judgment is impaired. Please understand that we have concerns about the direction that this may take Starcraft II as an eSport just the same as steroids affects baseball(obviously steroids would be cheating as opposed to this though.)
The vibe I get is that you feel it is okay to do because it's always been done apparently(from WC3, though I don't think I(or my team, of course) ever considered splitting in the dozens upon dozens of CS LANs I participated in throughout the years.) Labeling an entire community of people as ignorant and mis-informed is only a way to make yourself look worse; same with TT1 threatening to leave the TL community because he is being judged for his actions? Ridiculous. its really simple: its technically NOT their money at all, not until it transfers ownership after the games. therefore, the tournament can decide what to do with it. They havent won it yet, so its not theirs at all. And you cant agree to give away someone elses money. If you agree to a split beforehand it becomes okay AFTER getting the money. But, the tournament gives players money on the basis that they are seriously competing for it. So, players that do this are really cheating the tournament by not providing what they're being paid to provide. As such, this is basically fraud. And people wonder why microsoft, RIAA, MPAA, and ISPs like comcast and such are so shady. Its your lives people, and you're making it by saying its Okay to commit fraud as long as two friends benefit from it. Enron, people? It's not their money? Where the fuck do you think the people running the tournament gets the money from? Oh that's right, from people watching the games. And who plays in the games? Yep, you guessed it, the players. What kind of messed up world do you live in where it's fraud for two people to make an agreement between themselves?
the people watching =/= the people playing it. What kind of messed up world do you live in? The people making the agreement are breaking the agreement of what it means to be in the tournament in the first place. To compete desperately with everything to win the prize money. The agreement is between the TOURNAMENT AND THE INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS that if they fight as hard as possible and win, they get the money.
The behind the back agreement therefore constitutes fraud as players do not give the intended required performance because they're paying each other off.
its fraud between the players and the tournament.
Whats wrong with you?
and I like nanoscorpsidea:
If you think its alright, then players should publicly announce they agreed to this before sitting down to play.
Why don't players do that? Oh right, cause its FRAUD. The same thing goes on in Japanese Sumo, and there's a much more critical opinion of that.
I fear for the future with such base values in morals and ethics as this generation is showing.
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On September 02 2011 18:15 meRz wrote:
I don't get how this is even a problem. This would argueably even up the quality of a finals and make the players even more competitive against eachother.
When you take the money out of the equation you have two players who really could only really care about one thing, and that's winning. That's essentially what splitting does, at least from my perspective, you remove all the "omg I need to win because I fucking need the money". Sure, by splitting the players are removing tons of pressure of their shoulders which might be considered "weak" or "non-competitive" but in the end we all just care about winning, not winning MONEY. Essentially money is just a tool to keep us doing what we love to do, playing games on a competitive level.
In the instance involving TT1, he himself stated that he "threw" the game by one base carrier rushing.
If I was tournament organizer, this would not had made me happy.
EDIT: I just saw the post above me. Yes that's a no-brainer. If you are splitting the money you better give it your all to win the finals or else you're a fucking dick, basically pissing on competition and the spectators.
Well, that's what happened 
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On September 02 2011 17:56 insaneMicro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:37 Kaitlin wrote:
This. I stopped watching Professional baseball with all the steroid scandals. I stopped watching NBA with the strike (although technically, there isn't much choice here). I stopped watching certain Hollywood actors because they can't keep their personal opinions to themselves and decide to tell me what I should think. You vote with your wallet in these situations. If you don't like something, turn away.
E-sports is exactly the same. If the perception of tournaments is that they lack integrity because of backroom deals between the "competitors", then sponsorship revenue suffers and thus so does prize money. Are you aware that in today's sports competition, nearly everyone near the top is doping? I mean it's totally fine if you don't want to watch any longer, but I really think you need to start considering there's a difference from what you're told and what actually happens. This is really no different. You can pile on TT1 as much as you want, but in reality even the darlings of progaming make deals. And how can you hate on them for that? They are pretty smart, hardworking guys who play videogames for your enjoyment instead of doing mainstream careers. Most of them would be considered poor or broke by western standards, so they try to reduce variance by sharing tournament money with their friends. Economic incentives in action. The spectator entitlement ITT is really quite sickening. Edit to not doublepost: Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 17:49 Kaitlin wrote:
Over 50 pages in this thread and not once has anyone shown that "deal making" is acceptable to the only people who have a say in the matter, and that is the event organizers and sponsors. If, and only if, they say it's ok, is it ok. No. The only people who have a say on what to do with their winnings are competitors themselves. How could you even consider otherwise?
Like I've said in a previous post, it's not what they do after the games, it's the agreement they get into before the games are played. Tournaments have rules. If deal-making is against those rules, then the tournament has every right to disqualify the player and there goes any prize money. If there is no "deal" ahead of time and a player wants to give $$ to someone else, that's their business and I don't think anywhere here is saying otherwise. It's the deal making beforehand that is the issue, and you are ignoring that and just focusing on it being "their money" to do with as they please.
To the first part of your post, I'm not hating on these players. I'm just pointing out that what they apparently do is most likely against tournament rules and hurts the integrity of the "competition". I've been trying to point out the perspective of the event organizers and sponsors, and the fact that this isn't just about the players doing whatever they want.
I watch pros play Starcraft because the games are entertaining, usually. I also watch TB's stream when he plays Starcraft, because the games are entertaining, but in a different way, for sure. Now that I know players make backroom "deals", I'm sure I'll still find their games entertaining, but I think some of the dramatics surrounding competing for whatever $$ they are competing for will be diminished. I'm certainly not going to bet on the outcome of any "professional" Starcraft games. Also, the use of the term "e-sports" has changed for me. But I'm not looking down on players themselves, although I think they doing something that even they know is against the rules they agree to play by. Allegations of stream cheating will probably fall on my deaf ears, as well from now on.
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On September 02 2011 18:13 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 18:07 PredY wrote:
it's perfectly fine to do it, especially between teammates or good friends
if there is a tournament where the first place takes all, would you rather win 0 or 50% of 10k ?
or in first seasons of GSLs it was:
Winner: 100,000,000 KRW (aprox. $85,700 USD)
Runner-Up: 30,000,000 KRW (aprox. $25,700 USD)
not my fault for such ridiculous PM structure. It's 60k for a bo7 ffs Ok, when did this thread start to derail into a discussion about splitting the prize....ONLY? More and more people seem to think that way, but that's just not the case. Personally, I do not care in the slightest if you split the prize-money or not. What bothers me is, that the people involved in the incident didn't PLAY TO WIN anymore and that's just horrible for the tournament organizers, fans...esports in general. If you meet your teammate in the finals, yes, go ahead and agree on a 50/50 split. But for the love of little Jesus, at least deliver an exciting finals series, or does the "honor" of being the winner mean nothing anymore?
as a semiprogamer i agree
i always aim for the first place whatever prizemoney there is. i would play 110% to win fe. MLG, to be the champion. prizemoney would be the second concern to me. hell i would even play to win even if the first place got paid less than the 2nd.
if there's anyone who doesn't feel the same way then he's not a true progamer and shouldn't earn your respect anyway
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On September 02 2011 18:13 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 18:08 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 18:03 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 17:35 DrTJEckleburg wrote:
I don't see how the argument of "it's the player's money, let them share it if the want" holds any merit. It is completely true that it is there money to spend as they please, obviously in any way they prefer whether for rent, food, or pornography, etc.
The condescending attitude that is being expressed by ReignFayth(forgive me, no other progamer is really posting in this thread as much as you) is not appropriate. Yes, you may be getting these prize winnings and it may be an extremely low amount of money to support your hard lifestyle or the hardships you surely endure; unfortunately, your situation means nothing to me in terms of legitimacy and professionalism. Where else do you see this type of behavior in sports? It's an honest question, I may just be ignorant but it's not like Jimmie Johnson of NASCAR shares with his teammate Jeff Gordon because they finish 1-2 in a season or whatever.
Honestly, do you really think this many people(spectators) would find this unacceptable or illegitimate purely because of the fact that we are all ignorant to your progaming lifestyles and society? Not all of us are people out for blood and drama, I rarely post on this forum or particpate in eSports anymore, but that doesn't mean my judgment is impaired. Please understand that we have concerns about the direction that this may take Starcraft II as an eSport just the same as steroids affects baseball(obviously steroids would be cheating as opposed to this though.)
The vibe I get is that you feel it is okay to do because it's always been done apparently(from WC3, though I don't think I(or my team, of course) ever considered splitting in the dozens upon dozens of CS LANs I participated in throughout the years.) Labeling an entire community of people as ignorant and mis-informed is only a way to make yourself look worse; same with TT1 threatening to leave the TL community because he is being judged for his actions? Ridiculous. its really simple: its technically NOT their money at all, not until it transfers ownership after the games. therefore, the tournament can decide what to do with it. They havent won it yet, so its not theirs at all. And you cant agree to give away someone elses money. If you agree to a split beforehand it becomes okay AFTER getting the money. But, the tournament gives players money on the basis that they are seriously competing for it. So, players that do this are really cheating the tournament by not providing what they're being paid to provide. As such, this is basically fraud. And people wonder why microsoft, RIAA, MPAA, and ISPs like comcast and such are so shady. Its your lives people, and you're making it by saying its Okay to commit fraud as long as two friends benefit from it. Enron, people? It's not their money? Where the fuck do you think the people running the tournament gets the money from? Oh that's right, from people watching the games. And who plays in the games? Yep, you guessed it, the players. What kind of messed up world do you live in where it's fraud for two people to make an agreement between themselves? If there is a mandatory-compete claus in the tournament specifics then a backroom deal can be seen as a breach of contract. And if the deal takes place anyway the action can legally be construed as fraud or a breach. If it doesn't then, everything is in the all clear obviously.
Then that's fine. Tournaments can have whatever rules they want. It's up to the players to decide if they want to play in it or not. Still, the rule is not enforceable.
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On September 02 2011 18:17 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 18:15 meRz wrote:
I don't get how this is even a problem. This would argueably even up the quality of a finals and make the players even more competitive against eachother.
When you take the money out of the equation you have two players who really could only really care about one thing, and that's winning. That's essentially what splitting does, at least from my perspective, you remove all the "omg I need to win because I fucking need the money". Sure, by splitting the players are removing tons of pressure of their shoulders which might be considered "weak" or "non-competitive" but in the end we all just care about winning, not winning MONEY. Essentially money is just a tool to keep us doing what we love to do, playing games on a competitive level. In the instance involving TT1, he himself stated that he "threw" the game by one base carrier rushing. If I was tournament organizer, this would not had made me happy. Show nested quote +EDIT: I just saw the post above me. Yes that's a no-brainer. If you are splitting the money you better give it your all to win the finals or else you're a fucking dick, basically pissing on competition and the spectators. Well, that's what happened
I'm fairly certain he said in a post in this thread that he was on two bases and that the decision to make carriers was not illogical.
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On September 02 2011 18:18 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 18:13 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 18:08 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 18:03 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 17:35 DrTJEckleburg wrote:
I don't see how the argument of "it's the player's money, let them share it if the want" holds any merit. It is completely true that it is there money to spend as they please, obviously in any way they prefer whether for rent, food, or pornography, etc.
The condescending attitude that is being expressed by ReignFayth(forgive me, no other progamer is really posting in this thread as much as you) is not appropriate. Yes, you may be getting these prize winnings and it may be an extremely low amount of money to support your hard lifestyle or the hardships you surely endure; unfortunately, your situation means nothing to me in terms of legitimacy and professionalism. Where else do you see this type of behavior in sports? It's an honest question, I may just be ignorant but it's not like Jimmie Johnson of NASCAR shares with his teammate Jeff Gordon because they finish 1-2 in a season or whatever.
Honestly, do you really think this many people(spectators) would find this unacceptable or illegitimate purely because of the fact that we are all ignorant to your progaming lifestyles and society? Not all of us are people out for blood and drama, I rarely post on this forum or particpate in eSports anymore, but that doesn't mean my judgment is impaired. Please understand that we have concerns about the direction that this may take Starcraft II as an eSport just the same as steroids affects baseball(obviously steroids would be cheating as opposed to this though.)
The vibe I get is that you feel it is okay to do because it's always been done apparently(from WC3, though I don't think I(or my team, of course) ever considered splitting in the dozens upon dozens of CS LANs I participated in throughout the years.) Labeling an entire community of people as ignorant and mis-informed is only a way to make yourself look worse; same with TT1 threatening to leave the TL community because he is being judged for his actions? Ridiculous. its really simple: its technically NOT their money at all, not until it transfers ownership after the games. therefore, the tournament can decide what to do with it. They havent won it yet, so its not theirs at all. And you cant agree to give away someone elses money. If you agree to a split beforehand it becomes okay AFTER getting the money. But, the tournament gives players money on the basis that they are seriously competing for it. So, players that do this are really cheating the tournament by not providing what they're being paid to provide. As such, this is basically fraud. And people wonder why microsoft, RIAA, MPAA, and ISPs like comcast and such are so shady. Its your lives people, and you're making it by saying its Okay to commit fraud as long as two friends benefit from it. Enron, people? It's not their money? Where the fuck do you think the people running the tournament gets the money from? Oh that's right, from people watching the games. And who plays in the games? Yep, you guessed it, the players. What kind of messed up world do you live in where it's fraud for two people to make an agreement between themselves? If there is a mandatory-compete claus in the tournament specifics then a backroom deal can be seen as a breach of contract. And if the deal takes place anyway the action can legally be construed as fraud or a breach. If it doesn't then, everything is in the all clear obviously. Then that's fine. Tournaments can have whatever rules they want. It's up to the players to decide if they want to play in it or not. Still, the rule is not enforceable.
a contract is legally binding. if there's a rule that states that if players are found to be making deals like this, they must then give the money back to the tournament, they will have to, or they can be tried in court and be forced to pay it back or go to jail.
so yeah, its totally unenforceable. /eyeroll
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On September 02 2011 18:18 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 18:13 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 18:08 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 18:03 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 17:35 DrTJEckleburg wrote:
I don't see how the argument of "it's the player's money, let them share it if the want" holds any merit. It is completely true that it is there money to spend as they please, obviously in any way they prefer whether for rent, food, or pornography, etc.
The condescending attitude that is being expressed by ReignFayth(forgive me, no other progamer is really posting in this thread as much as you) is not appropriate. Yes, you may be getting these prize winnings and it may be an extremely low amount of money to support your hard lifestyle or the hardships you surely endure; unfortunately, your situation means nothing to me in terms of legitimacy and professionalism. Where else do you see this type of behavior in sports? It's an honest question, I may just be ignorant but it's not like Jimmie Johnson of NASCAR shares with his teammate Jeff Gordon because they finish 1-2 in a season or whatever.
Honestly, do you really think this many people(spectators) would find this unacceptable or illegitimate purely because of the fact that we are all ignorant to your progaming lifestyles and society? Not all of us are people out for blood and drama, I rarely post on this forum or particpate in eSports anymore, but that doesn't mean my judgment is impaired. Please understand that we have concerns about the direction that this may take Starcraft II as an eSport just the same as steroids affects baseball(obviously steroids would be cheating as opposed to this though.)
The vibe I get is that you feel it is okay to do because it's always been done apparently(from WC3, though I don't think I(or my team, of course) ever considered splitting in the dozens upon dozens of CS LANs I participated in throughout the years.) Labeling an entire community of people as ignorant and mis-informed is only a way to make yourself look worse; same with TT1 threatening to leave the TL community because he is being judged for his actions? Ridiculous. its really simple: its technically NOT their money at all, not until it transfers ownership after the games. therefore, the tournament can decide what to do with it. They havent won it yet, so its not theirs at all. And you cant agree to give away someone elses money. If you agree to a split beforehand it becomes okay AFTER getting the money. But, the tournament gives players money on the basis that they are seriously competing for it. So, players that do this are really cheating the tournament by not providing what they're being paid to provide. As such, this is basically fraud. And people wonder why microsoft, RIAA, MPAA, and ISPs like comcast and such are so shady. Its your lives people, and you're making it by saying its Okay to commit fraud as long as two friends benefit from it. Enron, people? It's not their money? Where the fuck do you think the people running the tournament gets the money from? Oh that's right, from people watching the games. And who plays in the games? Yep, you guessed it, the players. What kind of messed up world do you live in where it's fraud for two people to make an agreement between themselves? If there is a mandatory-compete claus in the tournament specifics then a backroom deal can be seen as a breach of contract. And if the deal takes place anyway the action can legally be construed as fraud or a breach. If it doesn't then, everything is in the all clear obviously. Then that's fine. Tournaments can have whatever rules they want. It's up to the players to decide if they want to play in it or not. Still, the rule is not enforceable.
I guess, thats really risky though. I mean as much as I don't like the idea of splitting. I would NEVER want anyone to be convicted of a white collar crime over it.
Also Im pretty sure its included in every tournament that has you sign or otherwise agree to a set of terms. All of mine did anyway but I don't have a professional presence in SC2.
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On September 02 2011 18:19 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 18:17 sleepingdog wrote:On September 02 2011 18:15 meRz wrote:
I don't get how this is even a problem. This would argueably even up the quality of a finals and make the players even more competitive against eachother.
When you take the money out of the equation you have two players who really could only really care about one thing, and that's winning. That's essentially what splitting does, at least from my perspective, you remove all the "omg I need to win because I fucking need the money". Sure, by splitting the players are removing tons of pressure of their shoulders which might be considered "weak" or "non-competitive" but in the end we all just care about winning, not winning MONEY. Essentially money is just a tool to keep us doing what we love to do, playing games on a competitive level. In the instance involving TT1, he himself stated that he "threw" the game by one base carrier rushing. If I was tournament organizer, this would not had made me happy. EDIT: I just saw the post above me. Yes that's a no-brainer. If you are splitting the money you better give it your all to win the finals or else you're a fucking dick, basically pissing on competition and the spectators. Well, that's what happened I'm fairly certain he said in a post in this thread that he was on two bases and that the decision to make carriers was not illogical.
I'm fairly certain that was not the case....will see if I can find the post....
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On September 02 2011 18:22 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 18:18 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 18:13 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 18:08 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 18:03 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 17:35 DrTJEckleburg wrote:
I don't see how the argument of "it's the player's money, let them share it if the want" holds any merit. It is completely true that it is there money to spend as they please, obviously in any way they prefer whether for rent, food, or pornography, etc.
The condescending attitude that is being expressed by ReignFayth(forgive me, no other progamer is really posting in this thread as much as you) is not appropriate. Yes, you may be getting these prize winnings and it may be an extremely low amount of money to support your hard lifestyle or the hardships you surely endure; unfortunately, your situation means nothing to me in terms of legitimacy and professionalism. Where else do you see this type of behavior in sports? It's an honest question, I may just be ignorant but it's not like Jimmie Johnson of NASCAR shares with his teammate Jeff Gordon because they finish 1-2 in a season or whatever.
Honestly, do you really think this many people(spectators) would find this unacceptable or illegitimate purely because of the fact that we are all ignorant to your progaming lifestyles and society? Not all of us are people out for blood and drama, I rarely post on this forum or particpate in eSports anymore, but that doesn't mean my judgment is impaired. Please understand that we have concerns about the direction that this may take Starcraft II as an eSport just the same as steroids affects baseball(obviously steroids would be cheating as opposed to this though.)
The vibe I get is that you feel it is okay to do because it's always been done apparently(from WC3, though I don't think I(or my team, of course) ever considered splitting in the dozens upon dozens of CS LANs I participated in throughout the years.) Labeling an entire community of people as ignorant and mis-informed is only a way to make yourself look worse; same with TT1 threatening to leave the TL community because he is being judged for his actions? Ridiculous. its really simple: its technically NOT their money at all, not until it transfers ownership after the games. therefore, the tournament can decide what to do with it. They havent won it yet, so its not theirs at all. And you cant agree to give away someone elses money. If you agree to a split beforehand it becomes okay AFTER getting the money. But, the tournament gives players money on the basis that they are seriously competing for it. So, players that do this are really cheating the tournament by not providing what they're being paid to provide. As such, this is basically fraud. And people wonder why microsoft, RIAA, MPAA, and ISPs like comcast and such are so shady. Its your lives people, and you're making it by saying its Okay to commit fraud as long as two friends benefit from it. Enron, people? It's not their money? Where the fuck do you think the people running the tournament gets the money from? Oh that's right, from people watching the games. And who plays in the games? Yep, you guessed it, the players. What kind of messed up world do you live in where it's fraud for two people to make an agreement between themselves? If there is a mandatory-compete claus in the tournament specifics then a backroom deal can be seen as a breach of contract. And if the deal takes place anyway the action can legally be construed as fraud or a breach. If it doesn't then, everything is in the all clear obviously. Then that's fine. Tournaments can have whatever rules they want. It's up to the players to decide if they want to play in it or not. Still, the rule is not enforceable. a contract is legally binding. if there's a rule that states that if players are found to be making deals like this, they must then give the money back to the tournament, they will have to, or they can be tried in court and be forced to pay it back or go to jail. so yeah, its totally unenforceable. /eyeroll
I think he was just coming from a practicality standpoint. Not a literal one.
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There we go, found it:
On September 02 2011 04:26 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 03:38 Kieofire wrote:On September 02 2011 03:35 dgwow wrote:On September 02 2011 03:32 ptbl wrote:
TT1 and Fenix had an agreement to split their winnings from Gamegune 2010 50/50. Fenix came in first place, while TT1 came in second. I think Fenix reneged on the agreement and decided not to split 50/50. If that's true, sucks for TT1, Fenix joins IM and keeps all the money =o Well by all means it is Fenix's money if he did win it, TT1 is just being greedy if this is true. lol im being greedy, being a two faced double crosser is normal to you? might whant to have your priorities checked bro pretournament we agreed (and i sent xeris a pm right after our agreement, in case something like this would have happened) that if we made it to the finals we were to share the winnings, after the finals( after i 1 base carriered him and he won) he told me that he didnt want to go through with the split, in my book the lowest thing someone can do is go back on his word after he made a promise.. hes a smart guy tho because he had both bases covered, if i had won the tournament he was gonna get a 50/50 split and if he ended up winning he wasnt gonna go throught with the split, if i cant trust someone then i dont want to have anything to do with that person and i let fnatic know my stance and told them to make a decision, a person that betrays someone elses trust and has no value for his word is the lowest form of a human being to me
So yes, this wasn't a serious game - and this is what's pissing me off, why would any sponsor want to support something like that?
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On September 02 2011 18:22 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 18:18 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 18:13 Medrea wrote:On September 02 2011 18:08 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:On September 02 2011 18:03 Truedot wrote:On September 02 2011 17:35 DrTJEckleburg wrote:
I don't see how the argument of "it's the player's money, let them share it if the want" holds any merit. It is completely true that it is there money to spend as they please, obviously in any way they prefer whether for rent, food, or pornography, etc.
The condescending attitude that is being expressed by ReignFayth(forgive me, no other progamer is really posting in this thread as much as you) is not appropriate. Yes, you may be getting these prize winnings and it may be an extremely low amount of money to support your hard lifestyle or the hardships you surely endure; unfortunately, your situation means nothing to me in terms of legitimacy and professionalism. Where else do you see this type of behavior in sports? It's an honest question, I may just be ignorant but it's not like Jimmie Johnson of NASCAR shares with his teammate Jeff Gordon because they finish 1-2 in a season or whatever.
Honestly, do you really think this many people(spectators) would find this unacceptable or illegitimate purely because of the fact that we are all ignorant to your progaming lifestyles and society? Not all of us are people out for blood and drama, I rarely post on this forum or particpate in eSports anymore, but that doesn't mean my judgment is impaired. Please understand that we have concerns about the direction that this may take Starcraft II as an eSport just the same as steroids affects baseball(obviously steroids would be cheating as opposed to this though.)
The vibe I get is that you feel it is okay to do because it's always been done apparently(from WC3, though I don't think I(or my team, of course) ever considered splitting in the dozens upon dozens of CS LANs I participated in throughout the years.) Labeling an entire community of people as ignorant and mis-informed is only a way to make yourself look worse; same with TT1 threatening to leave the TL community because he is being judged for his actions? Ridiculous. its really simple: its technically NOT their money at all, not until it transfers ownership after the games. therefore, the tournament can decide what to do with it. They havent won it yet, so its not theirs at all. And you cant agree to give away someone elses money. If you agree to a split beforehand it becomes okay AFTER getting the money. But, the tournament gives players money on the basis that they are seriously competing for it. So, players that do this are really cheating the tournament by not providing what they're being paid to provide. As such, this is basically fraud. And people wonder why microsoft, RIAA, MPAA, and ISPs like comcast and such are so shady. Its your lives people, and you're making it by saying its Okay to commit fraud as long as two friends benefit from it. Enron, people? It's not their money? Where the fuck do you think the people running the tournament gets the money from? Oh that's right, from people watching the games. And who plays in the games? Yep, you guessed it, the players. What kind of messed up world do you live in where it's fraud for two people to make an agreement between themselves? If there is a mandatory-compete claus in the tournament specifics then a backroom deal can be seen as a breach of contract. And if the deal takes place anyway the action can legally be construed as fraud or a breach. If it doesn't then, everything is in the all clear obviously. Then that's fine. Tournaments can have whatever rules they want. It's up to the players to decide if they want to play in it or not. Still, the rule is not enforceable. a contract is legally binding. if there's a rule that states that if players are found to be making deals like this, they must then give the money back to the tournament, they will have to, or they can be tried in court and be forced to pay it back or go to jail. so yeah, its totally unenforceable. /eyeroll
If that's what's stated in the contract then yes they should. I don't why you mentioned jail that's just absurd. I was saying it's not enforceable because any competent players would never let the information get out that they made a deal.
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On September 02 2011 18:25 sleepingdog wrote:There we go, found it: Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 04:26 TT1 wrote:On September 02 2011 03:38 Kieofire wrote:On September 02 2011 03:35 dgwow wrote:On September 02 2011 03:32 ptbl wrote:
TT1 and Fenix had an agreement to split their winnings from Gamegune 2010 50/50. Fenix came in first place, while TT1 came in second. I think Fenix reneged on the agreement and decided not to split 50/50. If that's true, sucks for TT1, Fenix joins IM and keeps all the money =o Well by all means it is Fenix's money if he did win it, TT1 is just being greedy if this is true. lol im being greedy, being a two faced double crosser is normal to you? might whant to have your priorities checked bro pretournament we agreed (and i sent xeris a pm right after our agreement, in case something like this would have happened) that if we made it to the finals we were to share the winnings, after the finals( after i 1 base carriered him and he won) he told me that he didnt want to go through with the split, in my book the lowest thing someone can do is go back on his word after he made a promise.. hes a smart guy tho because he had both bases covered, if i had won the tournament he was gonna get a 50/50 split and if he ended up winning he wasnt gonna go throught with the split, if i cant trust someone then i dont want to have anything to do with that person and i let fnatic know my stance and told them to make a decision, a person that betrays someone elses trust and has no value for his word is the lowest form of a human being to me
Can you also find the tournament rules for players? That would be pretty cool.
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They should at least do what they do in poker touraments where you make final table deals.
So say if first is 10k, second 5k. Both players agree to take say 6.5k each and the winner of the final gets the last 2k.
Would keep the competitiveness in it.
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EPT
