i wanted to do this haha. great job analysing! at least now workers dont get two shotted as long as you keep up with your upgrades. i think this gives people more chance to react to hellion shots. running workers now have more chance to survive as not all of them will get shot by 3 hellions if 3 hellions shoot at once.

Krosta

Norway437 Posts

August 25 2011 06:40 GMT

#25

Great summary. Thanks

me_viet

Australia1350 Posts

August 25 2011 06:43 GMT

#26

On August 25 2011 15:22 avilo wrote:

And if they're going to keep it that +1 weapon hellions + blueflame can 2 shot workers and such...maybe they should lower gas cost of the armory so it's not 100 gas...one of the most difficult parts of trying to go mech TvP/TvZ is not the actual unit control, but trying to allocate all your gas to units + upgrades which is very, very difficult since armories cost 100 vespene gas, wheres engineering bays are only minerals, forges are only minerals, and evolution chambers are only minerals...factories all cost 100 gas...barracks are only minerals and gateways are only minerals...why is the armory 150/100? If they are going to nerf mech and keep it insanely difficult to do in TvP/TvZ they should consider making armories cheaper gas wise, more like 150/50.

But spire also costs gas...alot of it too T_T

..Not to mention extremely long time to build.

Just pointing out that you can't compare race 'equivalent' like that.

EDIT: also, reducing reducing gas cost of armoury to 50 like that would make thor rushes much faster wouldn't it? That'll be another all-in P has to worry about.

Spicy_Curry

United States10573 Posts

August 25 2011 06:43 GMT

#27

Blizzard should not be forcing meta game shifts. BFH was a product of bad game design so they should aim to rectify the problem in the expansion instead of trying to change how the unit works and risk making it worthless. IMO the main problem with the hellion is that it costs no gas, having two mineral sinks in a race makes balancing much more difficult. If the hellion costed like 15 gas, losing 4 + 1 medivac would hurt the terran enough to make it a punishment.

dcemuser

United States3248 Posts

August 25 2011 06:46 GMT

#28

On August 25 2011 15:29 Ghostfoot wrote:

Show nested quote +

in that case screw the BF upgrade because regular hellions do that anyway.

Hellions are like paper vs the +armored attack units like Marauders and Stalkers, though, so expecting only 2-3 of your Hellions to live to see the workers is standard.

It does hurt drops quite a bit if your opponent is prepared for it.

BigFan

TLADT24920 Posts

August 25 2011 06:52 GMT

#29

On August 25 2011 15:46 dcemuser wrote:

Show nested quote +

Actually, they aren't armored as I recall. It was mentioned by one of the casters when he was talking about immortals and how most people think they are armored but they aren't

ToastieNL

Netherlands845 Posts

August 25 2011 07:00 GMT

#30

At +1 you deal 21 damage v light.

+1 armor drones will survive you.

You deal 20 damage, drone heals one, 20 damage. Drone is at 1hp. +2 is needed to kill Drones up to +3 armor, +3 is needed to always kill drones.

The thing is, because you require an attack upgrade, it is a commintment to go hellion, instead of spending your leftover minerals.

kollin

United Kingdom8380 Posts

August 25 2011 09:23 GMT

#31

I personally think (at least for me), it won't matter too much, as I only use hellions in TvT, and usually have about 10. And whenever I do drop hellions, I drop 4, so I still 1 shot workers :D

Slyce

United Kingdom173 Posts

August 25 2011 09:40 GMT

#32

Great post, thank you.

Eksan

Sweden81 Posts

August 25 2011 10:51 GMT

#33

3 Normal Hellions is as good as 3 blue vs Probe/Drone, but when you get +1 for Hellions it will be as before so mid game drops will still be scary atleast for Protoss and Zerg

Spitfire

South Africa442 Posts

August 25 2011 12:29 GMT

#34

The problem with the Hellion is it is too good as a harass unit, but at the same time is required for mech to be a viable option.

I wish Blizzard could nerf the hellions harass ability without nerfing the whole mech play style.

Micket

United Kingdom2163 Posts

August 25 2011 12:34 GMT

#35

If anything, the speed of the hellion is the most overpowered part of it. They are still going to be too good in TvZ.

s3rp

Germany3192 Posts

August 25 2011 12:36 GMT

#36

On August 25 2011 15:43 spicyredcurry wrote:
Blizzard should not be forcing meta game shifts. BFH was a product of bad game design so they should aim to rectify the problem in the expansion instead of trying to change how the unit works and risk making it worthless. IMO the main problem with the hellion is that it costs no gas, having two mineral sinks in a race makes balancing much more difficult. If the hellion costed like 15 gas, losing 4 + 1 medivac would hurt the terran enough to make it a punishment.

Well Terran needs two mineral sinks with the way Terran works. You can't build Marines when you play heavy mech because bio without upgrades just sucks. Terran isn't Protoss you don't allways build out of Barracks/Gateways . Factories they are alot more like Barracks in the regard you can build an entire army out of them not just supporting units. Gateways have every non-support Units Protoss need , Barracks don't have that for Terran.

Helions need a change but a different one make them weaker vs workers/light but better as a general fighting units overall.

firehand101

Australia3152 Posts

August 25 2011 12:39 GMT

#37

blizzard loves doing this upgrade stuff, and i think its really epic for e sports
The example im thinking of is the baneling. Marines kill it, but on creep they kill marines, and marines with stim kill those banes, and then banes with hooks kill THOSE marines

the same is happening with hellions: 3 shots until attack, until armour takes over then its 2 again. Puts more emphasis on upgrades. Its really good

NormandyBoy

France200 Posts

August 25 2011 12:39 GMT

#38

As a Terran, I'm glad they're nerfing blue flame, because the only use of hellions nowadays is droppping them and hoping you kill all his eco to make up for your rush to blue flame. Hopefully they will have a more standard role in army composition now, but still I would rather replace BF with something like mines, who have several use (map control, punishing lack of detection, tank lines breaker) and create great micro.

windzor

Denmark1013 Posts

August 25 2011 12:46 GMT

#39

On August 25 2011 15:26 Like a Boss wrote:
Terrans usually drop 4 blue flame hellions... it is still 1 shot.

Often when they are dropped fast, you see if players react fast enough atleast 2 will die before reaching the mineral line. Before those 2 who get through kill alot of workers, making the drop viable. Now if 2 dies, the damage is minimal.

I see this as a nerf to running or dropping hellions. Often you would see, even if a player reacts almost perfect 2-3 hellions will get through. IMO it sounds like this has fixed what players complained about before, 2 hellions isn't as random as before, but still keeping the fun in BFH. If you don't react to a drop and 4 gets into a mineral line, it's dead....

mechavoc

United States664 Posts

August 25 2011 12:51 GMT

#40

On August 25 2011 15:16 TDN4 wrote:
I would love to go back to bio tank. Hellions seem so random and luck. Bio tank requires more skills. a few hellions sneak in behind your mineral line in early game and it's gg. so much luck.

Pros have been using blue flame as a big part of their main army, a "lucky" drop has nothing to do with it. As a terran player I don't see how it takes more skill to roll up with a bunch of tanks and siege them infront of my opponants base.

Hellions take a lot more micro (read skill) to be used well.

This is an instersting part of the game dev and a blizzard showing their cards a bit on balance it looks like they do not want one strategy that is clearly dominante for a race as blue flame was becoming for terran.