EPTA complete monkey could be as effective with this unit as Flash, can't wait to see the nerf.
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Blue flame hellion analysis - Page 5
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Tomfour
United States173 Posts
A complete monkey could be as effective with this unit as Flash, can't wait to see the nerf. User was warned for this post | ||
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spbelky
United States623 Posts
On August 25 2011 15:22 avilo wrote: + Show Spoiler + They need to rethink this and go back to their philosophy of "wait and see" of what players come up with. Hellions already are pretty effectively dealt with by good sim city and awareness... It's sort of like nerfing marines because an "8 marine drop with stim is too powerful..." yes it is if you weren't prepared or they all landed and started taking out scvs... Blizzard jumping the gun over 1 tournament, you can still bio TvT, you just can't play it stupidly like everyone does right now where they run into a tank line and then go, "oh bio doesn't work." You're supposed to leverage BCS/banshees with bio vs mech to create holes and force unsieges. If the patch goes through, we'll start to see more maraudercraft in TvT...which leads back to mass marines/tank to beat that...etc. I'm not even really worried about mech TvT so much as mech possibilities going bye bye in TvP/TvZ related to using hellions. Blue flame will not be as attractive an upgrade if it takes 3 shots to kill probes/drones...as that was the entire point of the upgrade. And if they're going to keep it that +1 weapon hellions + blueflame can 2 shot workers and such...maybe they should lower gas cost of the armory so it's not 100 gas...one of the most difficult parts of trying to go mech TvP/TvZ is not the actual unit control, but trying to allocate all your gas to units + upgrades which is very, very difficult since armories cost 100 vespene gas, wheres engineering bays are only minerals, forges are only minerals, and evolution chambers are only minerals...factories all cost 100 gas...barracks are only minerals and gateways are only minerals...why is the armory 150/100? If they are going to nerf mech and keep it insanely difficult to do in TvP/TvZ they should consider making armories cheaper gas wise, more like 150/50. I absolutely agree, going mech is 100% about gas allocation, and trying to upgrade mech units is incredible hard, 100gas per armory is just so darn expensive, 50gas or even 75gas for an armoy makes more sense to me. However, I do have to critique your post about evolution chambers/forges. If you want an in depth analysis of upgrade costs, you have to take in to account everything. (ignoring actual cost of individual upgrades) Terran Bio, 1-1 (0 gas engy bay) 2-2 (100 gas armory) 3-3 (100 gas armory) Terran Mech 1-1 (100gas armory, but if you want to upgrade 2 things at a time, 200gas for 2 armories =\ Protoss Ground, 1-1 (0 gas forge) 2-2 (100gas twilight council) 3-3 (100gas twilight) Protoss Air, 1-1 (0 gas cyber) 2-2 (150gasfleet beacon) 3-3 (150gas beacon) Zerg Ground 1-1 (0 gas evo) 2-2 (100gas lair) 2-2 (250gas lair+hive) Zerg Air, Really odd to analyze if you look at the gas cost of Spire, Lair, Hive, Greater Spire... I dunno, I think the problem with pure mech builds is that you need effective mineral dumps because your core army is so gas heavy. You have a few choices of how to use those minerals: marines, hellions, turrets, command centers. Marines are pretty bad unless you upgrade them, but that severely cuts in to your mech gas. Hellions are alright, but they're pretty bad against anything non light or air. And then turrets and CCs force you to play suuuper duper passive. I'm also going to address something before it comes up, because I know someone is going to be a smartass.... unupgraded marines are GREAT in the early game. They do however SUCK in the mid/late game. | ||
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Theovide
Sweden914 Posts
On August 25 2011 14:30 movac wrote: I'd like to add that hellions get +1 damage but also +1 to light, giving them +2 damage vs light units. With 1 attack upgrade, they will deal 21 damage vs light, even with an armor upgrade from the opposing side they will still deal 20 damage which is sufficient to kill a probe or drone in 2 shots. Wont the regen of the drone mean that they'll need 3 shots to kill a drone? (Unless it's 2 helions who shots simultaneously). Either way I love this change, even as a terran player. Starcraft 2 is and should be a game of poking and prodding to get an advantage, meanwhile blueflame helions where more like hitting people with a big fucking hammer. (I'm thinking of ogres from WoW yelling MEEEEE SMAAAAAAASH). Ie either you miss, or you hit and totally destroy everything. Though I think that it would have been okay to simply reduce their damage vs workers also, but I guess blizzard doesn't work that way anymore. (I didn't play a lot of BW, but I've understood it so that some units simply did extra damage/lower damage vs some specific other units, unrelated to armor types or whatever, and that would do aswell, without nerfing the helions in actualy fights, which I don't think anyone felt neccesarry). | ||
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Demonace34
United States2493 Posts
BFH still have decent power(especially with upgrades), but they aren't going to be wheels of destruction no matter what, and this risk vs reward is balanced more with this change. | ||
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Theovide
Sweden914 Posts
On August 26 2011 00:49 spbelky wrote: I absolutely agree, going mech is 100% about gas allocation, and trying to upgrade mech units is incredible hard, 100gas per armory is just so darn expensive, 50gas or even 75gas for an armoy makes more sense to me. However, I do have to critique your post about evolution chambers/forges. If you want an in depth analysis of upgrade costs, you have to take in to account everything. (ignoring actual cost of individual upgrades) Terran Bio, 1-1 (0 gas engy bay) 2-2 (100 gas armory) 3-3 (100 gas armory) Terran Mech 1-1 (100gas armory, but if you want to upgrade 2 things at a time, 200gas for 2 armories =\ Protoss Ground, 1-1 (0 gas forge) 2-2 (100gas twilight council) 3-3 (100gas twilight) Protoss Air, 1-1 (0 gas cyber) 2-2 (150gasfleet beacon) 3-3 (150gas beacon) Zerg Ground 1-1 (0 gas evo) 2-2 (100gas lair) 2-2 (250gas lair+hive) Zerg Air, Really odd to analyze if you look at the gas cost of Spire, Lair, Hive, Greater Spire... I dunno, I think the problem with pure mech builds is that you need effective mineral dumps because your core army is so gas heavy. You have a few choices of how to use those minerals: marines, hellions, turrets, command centers. Marines are pretty bad unless you upgrade them, but that severely cuts in to your mech gas. Hellions are alright, but they're pretty bad against anything non light or air. And then turrets and CCs force you to play suuuper duper passive. I'm also going to address something before it comes up, because I know someone is going to be a smartass.... unupgraded marines are GREAT in the early game. They do however SUCK in the mid/late game. There is something lacking with your anlysis aswell though, most of the requirements for higher uppgrades for Z and P are you gonna want to have anyway for other purposes. (Also you don't need greater spire for 3/3 air I think, just hive? I'm not really sure as most of the time you'll get greater spire asap when you get hive either way.) At least the zerg ones, it's not like you are getting lair to get 2-2, most players even get lair before 1-1 is finished. But you are not getting a second armory for anything but just mass mech or mass air uppgrades. (And when you go bio you wont want that armory at all except for the greater uppgrades out of the enginering bay). Thus as T it's an investment solely to attain the possibility to invest more in uppgrades, compared to the PZ requirements that simply also yield the possibility to uppgrade more. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On August 26 2011 01:01 Theovide wrote: There is something lacking with your anlysis aswell though, most of the requirements for higher uppgrades for Z and P are you gonna want to have anyway for other purposes. (Also you don't need greater spire for 3/3 air I think, just hive? I'm not really sure as most of the time you'll get greater spire asap when you get hive either way.) At least the zerg ones, it's not like you are getting lair to get 2-2, most players even get lair before 1-1 is finished. But you are not getting a second armory for anything but just mass mech or mass air uppgrades. (And when you go bio you wont want that armory at all except for the greater uppgrades out of the enginering bay). Thus as T it's an investment solely to attain the possibility to invest more in uppgrades, compared to the PZ requirements that simply also yield the possibility to uppgrade more. You try comparing a SECOND armory to getting a hive... really? If I want to upgrade my mutalisks to 2/2 in a timely manner, I have to get 2 spires. That's another 200/200+drone for nothing but upgrades. Stop doing round-about comparisons to make your QQ sound valid. | ||
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I)etox
1240 Posts
On August 26 2011 00:40 Tomfour wrote: Didn't read your post, except for the first few lines, and since I know we are talking about pre-nerf hellions all I would like to say is this. A complete monkey could be as effective with this unit as Flash, can't wait to see the nerf. Why would you comment on the OP without reading the entire post? And then just dismiss the entire thing with "hrllions r OP lulz"* *paraphrased | ||
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kidd
United States2848 Posts
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
+2(+3 vs light) So that they would do 10 damage to units that aren't light with the upgrade. Seems more fair ^^. | ||
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Karnac
Canada16 Posts
Red Flame 14 dmg / Blue Flame 24 dmg / Blue flame 1.4 proposed change 19 dmg SCV 4/2/3 Change +1 Drone 3/2/3 Change +1 Probe 3/2/ 3 Change +1 Marine 4/2/3 Change +1 Marine w/sheild 4/3/3 Change 0 Reaper 4/3/3 Change 0 Helion 7/4/5 Change +1 Larva 7/2/3 Change +1 Zerglings 3 /2/2 Change 0 Hydralisk 6/4/5 Change +1 Zealot 12/7/9 Change +2 Sentry 6/4 /5 Change +1 High Templar 6/4/5 Change +1 Dark Templar 9/6/7 Change+1 - Helions worker Harrassing has been nerfed giving all races 1 attack cycle longer to react. (also makes quick blue flame pointless as red kills equally fast) - BFH nerf is a massive buff for protoss gateway units as it effects helions vs every single toss light unit. - BFH are still as effective in lategame combat engagements vs Terran and Zerg as reapers and hydralisks dont typically square off against mech (or Terran for that matter) (maybe this is a hint for the gas floating Bio users to get reapers in the army to deal with upgraded Zealots?) | ||
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Aoi_10
United States155 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:21 Karnac wrote: - BFH are still as effective in lategame combat engagements vs Terran and Zerg as reapers and hydralisks dont typically square off against mech (or Terran for that matter) Unfortunately, that's not the case, since in most late-game TvT situations where you have BFHs, the other person will have both stim and combat shields for their marines, meaning you're going to have to burn through 45hp, which now will take 3, rather than 2, shots. | ||
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Karnac
Canada16 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:46 Aoi_10 wrote: Unfortunately, that's not the case, since in most late-game TvT situations where you have BFHs, the other person will have both stim and combat shields for their marines, meaning you're going to have to burn through 45hp, which now will take 3, rather than 2, shots. You obviously mis-understood or didnt read my post. A combat Shield Marine has 55 hp Red flame takes 4 hits to kill Current Blue Flame takes 3 hits to kill With the damage reduction it will still take 3 hits to kill a marine with shield. AKA the patch makes no difference vs combat shield marines. The only difference is VS un-shielded marines, a late game rarity. | ||
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Aoi_10
United States155 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:57 Karnac wrote: You obviously mis-understood or didnt read my post. A combat Shield Marine has 55 hp Red flame takes 4 hits to kill Current Blue Flame takes 3 hits to kill With the damage reduction it will still take 3 hits to kill a marine with shield. AKA the patch makes no difference vs combat shield marines. The only difference is VS un-shielded marines, a late game rarity. I read it - scout's honor. My point is that late-game, you're facing shielded marines _who have stimmed_, bringing their hp back down to 45, at which point, you're back (in the current version, but not under the proposed change) in 2-shot territory. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:03 Zorgaz wrote: I would want to see them make up for the nerf with something like. +2(+3 vs light) So that they would do 10 damage to units that aren't light with the upgrade. Seems more fair ^^. My idea exactly. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:57 Karnac wrote: You obviously mis-understood or didnt read my post. A combat Shield Marine has 55 hp Red flame takes 4 hits to kill Current Blue Flame takes 3 hits to kill With the damage reduction it will still take 3 hits to kill a marine with shield. AKA the patch makes no difference vs combat shield marines. The only difference is VS un-shielded marines, a late game rarity. There's one thing you didn't account for its called Medivacs . Helions will be significantly worse vs Marines ( fine with me though ) . | ||
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NuKedUFirst
Canada3139 Posts
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Karnac
Canada16 Posts
On August 26 2011 03:14 Aoi_10 wrote: I read it - scout's honor. My point is that late-game, you're facing shielded marines _who have stimmed_, bringing their hp back down to 45, at which point, you're back (in the current version, but not under the proposed change) in 2-shot territory. Ah Touche. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 25 2011 15:26 Like a Boss wrote: Terrans usually drop 4 blue flame hellions... it is still 1 shot. With that logic they might as well be dropping red flames. Somewhat, it's ignoring the fact medivacs will be healing and usually you stim before any shots get off. | ||
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GhostFall
United States830 Posts
Compared to the vulture, hellions are nothing. They are literally a godsend to me. So I dont know why they would nerf it. When I'm terran, as good as blue flame is for killing workers, I still rather have vultures. | ||
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Major
Mexico539 Posts
and if ud ont believe me go look at my tvt winratio i know what im talking about T.T sad panda | ||
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