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On August 25 2011 15:46 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 15:29 Ghostfoot wrote:On August 25 2011 15:26 Like a Boss wrote:
Terrans usually drop 4 blue flame hellions... it is still 1 shot. in that case screw the BF upgrade because regular hellions do that anyway. Hellions are like paper vs the +armored attack units like Marauders and Stalkers, though, so expecting only 2-3 of your Hellions to live to see the workers is standard. It does hurt drops quite a bit if your opponent is prepared for it.
Hellions are light units, not armored. They take only 10 damage from marauders. In fact they are good meat shield for the tanks in TvT vs marauders.
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I really like this change, it means some volatility is still there, but it requires additional tech.
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Anyone else feel that BF should be made a bit cheaper with this change? You get half the damage for the same price now, feels a bit odd.
Regular reactor hellions will probably be the way to go in TvZ, in fact I don't see much reason to research BFH unless its a mech-heavy build now.
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On August 25 2011 14:30 movac wrote:
I'd like to add that hellions get +1 damage but also +1 to light, giving them +2 damage vs light units.
It's just +1(+0) since patch 15 actually, weapons only give them +1 no matter the type.
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The problem I have with these changes, and all other changes, is Blizzard seems content to try to funnel every player into playing the same way. Someone finds something strong, Blizzard goes out and 'fixes' it. So let's all get the 3 builds orders for each race that Blizzard wants to force down our throats and just practice those.
There's a difference between improving your game and interfering with it... and I think Blizzard has crossed that line several times.
Mech was hard enough to play prior to Blizzard 'balancing' stuff and now it's even harder. Why am I forced to play bio? You take away the options and you take away the fun. The best part of Starcraft to me is seeing all the different builds and strategies players come up with. At this rate Blizzard will eliminate all creativity and strategy and it'll be dumbed down into a game of who can click fastest to do the same build.
In other words, stuff like this is ruining the flexibility of the game.
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On August 25 2011 22:06 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 14:30 movac wrote:
I'd like to add that hellions get +1 damage but also +1 to light, giving them +2 damage vs light units.
It's just +1(+0) since patch 15 actually, weapons only give them +1 no matter the type.
I tried it in the unit tester today.
A non BF hellion got +2 to light for every weapons upgrrade.
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(meh i failed x3 sorry)
and yes i thing it should be a lil faster or cheaper again ^^. Or an hp buff to the hellions, they are the tanking unit in mech play after all ^^.
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On August 25 2011 21:58 Bagi wrote:
Regular reactor hellions will probably be the way to go in TvZ, in fact I don't see much reason to research BFH unless its a mech-heavy build now.
Why are people acting like reactor hellion openings weren't seen? Most terrans(Koreans included) were still opening reactor Hellions TvZ and then doing some add on switching to get blue flame later. Now they might not do that switching. TvT I think is changed the most. Stimmed marines and marines without combat shield lasting 2 hits or more is massive.
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On August 25 2011 22:08 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 22:06 Fyrewolf wrote:On August 25 2011 14:30 movac wrote:
I'd like to add that hellions get +1 damage but also +1 to light, giving them +2 damage vs light units.
It's just +1(+0) since patch 15 actually, weapons only give them +1 no matter the type. I tried it in the unit tester today. A non BF hellion got +2 to light for every weapons upgrrade.
My bad. Thanks for the confirm. Oh the lies liquipedia tells us 
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On August 25 2011 15:22 avilo wrote:
They need to rethink this and go back to their philosophy of "wait and see" of what players come up with. Hellions already are pretty effectively dealt with by good sim city and awareness...
It's sort of like nerfing marines because an "8 marine drop with stim is too powerful..." yes it is if you weren't prepared or they all landed and started taking out scvs...
Blizzard jumping the gun over 1 tournament, you can still bio TvT, you just can't play it stupidly like everyone does right now where they run into a tank line and then go, "oh bio doesn't work." You're supposed to leverage BCS/banshees with bio vs mech to create holes and force unsieges.
If the patch goes through, we'll start to see more maraudercraft in TvT...which leads back to mass marines/tank to beat that...etc.
I'm not even really worried about mech TvT so much as mech possibilities going bye bye in TvP/TvZ related to using hellions. Blue flame will not be as attractive an upgrade if it takes 3 shots to kill probes/drones...as that was the entire point of the upgrade.
And if they're going to keep it that +1 weapon hellions + blueflame can 2 shot workers and such...maybe they should lower gas cost of the armory so it's not 100 gas...one of the most difficult parts of trying to go mech TvP/TvZ is not the actual unit control, but trying to allocate all your gas to units + upgrades which is very, very difficult since armories cost 100 vespene gas, wheres engineering bays are only minerals, forges are only minerals, and evolution chambers are only minerals...factories all cost 100 gas...barracks are only minerals and gateways are only minerals...why is the armory 150/100? If they are going to nerf mech and keep it insanely difficult to do in TvP/TvZ they should consider making armories cheaper gas wise, more like 150/50.
Why would you an armory be cheaper? A Lair is 100 gas, and that's what you need to get 2-2 and 3-3 for zerg, and protoss needs a twilight council to get 2-2 and 3-3. There is no difference there. An armory was the path to higher bio upgrades and then you could get ship weapons/mech weapons.
Terran has a different dynamic than all the other races, where zerg doesn't have a completely different unit type that is it's own strat, all of their units are bio. Protoss cannot go bio. Terran is the only race that can go bio or mech or a combination of the two.
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I think the upgrade should be changed to 100/100 and 65 seconds research time to compensate for this nerf.
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Seems like blizz is trying to force terran to go bio =/. I dont see many people going BFH anymore, people will still go hellions but I think it will only be for early game map control or if someone is trying to force a mech style.
I don't see BFH being an upgrade worth rushing for any more. Better off dropping 4 normal hellions with a medivac and saving the gas for something else rather than going for BFH drops.
And also there nerfing something that has only been used in the meta game for the past month or two =/. Not giving people enough time to adapt and change.
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On August 25 2011 22:33 Pwnographics wrote:
I think the upgrade should be changed to 100/100 and 65 seconds research time to compensate for this nerf.
It's more a problem with the unit itself as opposed to blink where it just came out to early, blue flame helions are good all the time, and it's not that they just come to fast. Normal helion opens tvz are still very good, and shouldn't affect them since they end up switching to tank marine later in the game anyway and not blue flame helion... Will definitely affect a lot of people though who only used marine helion elevator play or marine helion timings...
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oh and i guess it was because it will secretly buff hydras and still punish mass lings early on the same way etc, and balance tvt (hellions >>>> attacking bio). no idea if there is an issue with zealots, but there charge is the big problem hehe.
But as it goes for the probes early on you always saw a 4 hellion drop and most of the time they simply moved through the oppenents army and 2 hellions made it past and then frying drones. Guess this will take a lil more skill now x3 or a 5th hellion giggles.
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They should just increase the research time, if the problem is "too strong early game"
I wouldnt mind if it was like, 200 secs or something. I think its reasonable.
Nerfing the damage lke this wrecks the hellion all game long, not just early. And the investment becomes too big (BF and +1) to warrant its use unless youre going full mech. But you only go full mech in TvT, and since helions will be crap against Marines now, it will be Marine-Tank all over again. And no, sir, I dont like it.
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On August 25 2011 22:40 gustavohmp wrote:
They should just increase the research time, if the problem is "too strong early game"
I wouldnt mind if it was like, 200 secs or something. I think its reasonable.
Nerfing the damage lke this wrecks the hellion all game long, not just early. And the investment becomes too big (BF and +1) to warrant its use unless youre going full mech. But you only go full mech in TvT, and since helions will be crap against Marines now, it will be Marine-Tank all over again. And no, sir, I dont like it.
Mech TvT will still be good against biomech since BFHs three-shot marines regardless now, however instead of BFHs stomping marines, it'll be more even in the matchup. The key turning point will be medivacs vs vikings. The medivacs will make a big difference now to absorb hellion damage, but if the mech player with his vikings can take them out, the hellions will still kill the marines.
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I dunno where the fuck blizzard pulled this out from, Im busy trying to counter late game 3/3 chargelots with BFH and they pop this out. Fuck.
I guess BFH were always horrible against chargelots...:/
More ghosts ftw now
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On August 25 2011 22:26 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 22:08 Dalavita wrote:On August 25 2011 22:06 Fyrewolf wrote:On August 25 2011 14:30 movac wrote:
I'd like to add that hellions get +1 damage but also +1 to light, giving them +2 damage vs light units.
It's just +1(+0) since patch 15 actually, weapons only give them +1 no matter the type. I tried it in the unit tester today. A non BF hellion got +2 to light for every weapons upgrrade. My bad. Thanks for the confirm. Oh the lies liquipedia tells us
just have to read it carefully
Ground Attack: 8(+1)
Ground DPS: 3.2(+0.4)
Bonus: +6 (+1) vs Light
+16 (+1) vs Light
(Infernal Pre-Igniter)
 http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Hellion
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On August 25 2011 22:46 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 22:40 gustavohmp wrote:
They should just increase the research time, if the problem is "too strong early game"
I wouldnt mind if it was like, 200 secs or something. I think its reasonable.
Nerfing the damage lke this wrecks the hellion all game long, not just early. And the investment becomes too big (BF and +1) to warrant its use unless youre going full mech. But you only go full mech in TvT, and since helions will be crap against Marines now, it will be Marine-Tank all over again. And no, sir, I dont like it. Mech TvT will still be good against biomech since BFHs three-shot marines regardless now, however instead of BFHs stomping marines, it'll be more even in the matchup. The key turning point will be medivacs vs vikings. The medivacs will make a big difference now to absorb hellion damage, but if the mech player with his vikings can take them out, the hellions will still kill the marines.
That extra shot means a lot of DPS from stimmed marines.
And like you pointed out, M&M will be immortal vs helions should the medivacs live.
Mech TvT is over if this patch goes live.
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From a players perspective, I hated using blue flame. To an extent I felt gimmicky. When I decimated worklines/marines I felt no joy, I just felt I was using a broken mechanic. I felt as if a lot of my games lost a lot of the skill element from just massing up on Hellions.
From a spectating perspective this is awesome as well. Hellions are so boring to watch and so volatile and unforgiving, I just sighed every time I watched a Slayers game.
The mix of bio-mech will always be more interesting to watch, and indeed require more skill to play it. For me this patch couldn't come sooner, I'd love to see it before MLG this weekend. One can dream! ^_^
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EPT
