On August 25 2011 23:11 sephius wrote: From a players perspective, I hated using blue flame. To an extent I felt gimmicky. When I decimated worklines/marines I felt no joy, I just felt I was using a broken mechanic. I felt as if a lot of my games lost a lot of the skill element from just massing up on Hellions.
From a spectating perspective this is awesome as well. Hellions are so boring to watch and so volatile and unforgiving, I just sighed every time I watched a Slayers game.
The mix of bio-mech will always be more interesting to watch, and indeed require more skill to play it. For me this patch couldn't come sooner, I'd love to see it before MLG this weekend. One can dream! ^_^
BFH exploits lack of sim city and reaction time from the oponent. Its always tense when you watch a player LINE'EM UP If you are winning games on BFH harass alone, you either Fantasy incarnate or your oponents suck. Zerg has legit problems with it though on maps that are hard to wallin. But its been some time since I last saw Zerg losing to it.
On August 25 2011 14:45 Thorzain wrote: So rushing for blue flame will only be good against zerglings. No more gas before rax rush to blue flame as fast as possible anymore! Marines fighting!!!<3
stop. I may be theory crafting here, but heres the deal If the new BFH three shots workers, same as a non upgraded hellion. Then what if you go for reactor instead of techlab on factory, the freed up 150 gas (still doing double gas) will allow you to not only get a fast starport, allowing you to drop ever earlier, but you'll also be able to do a stupid fast cloakshee+hellion follow up too? Or you can simply just go single gas, still have 100 gas right as factory finishes for fast starport then dropship, have more money to get expo/ go for heavy rax hellion play + drop ship similiar to slayers style?
On August 25 2011 23:11 sephius wrote: From a players perspective, I hated using blue flame. To an extent I felt gimmicky. When I decimated worklines/marines I felt no joy, I just felt I was using a broken mechanic. I felt as if a lot of my games lost a lot of the skill element from just massing up on Hellions.
From a spectating perspective this is awesome as well. Hellions are so boring to watch and so volatile and unforgiving, I just sighed every time I watched a Slayers game.
The mix of bio-mech will always be more interesting to watch, and indeed require more skill to play it. For me this patch couldn't come sooner, I'd love to see it before MLG this weekend. One can dream! ^_^
Its always tense when you watch a player LINE'EM UP
How is it tense? It's not tense because the second you see a massed group of hellions in someones base you know the game is going to be over fairly shortly. It's just way too unforgiving. Brilliant players are just getting owned far too quickly and easily without a fighting chance.
BFH are too cheap and far too easy to pull off. Anyway, this doesn't make blue flame completely useless. I've seen non-upgraded Hellions still wreck havoc on mineral lines. So the flexibility in Terran builds still exist, and people will still use Hellions no doubt. It was just a change that needed to happen because it was broken.
-edit- Would just like to state that I am a Terran player. And from the perspective of a Terran and spectator I am thrilled with the upcoming changes. If I had a hat I'd take it off for Blizzard.
I think over all this is a good change. 2 shotting workers with hellions early game was a bit too strong. The change to 3 shots will help minimize the damage from these often deadly harasses.
On August 25 2011 23:11 sephius wrote: From a players perspective, I hated using blue flame. To an extent I felt gimmicky. When I decimated worklines/marines I felt no joy, I just felt I was using a broken mechanic. I felt as if a lot of my games lost a lot of the skill element from just massing up on Hellions.
From a spectating perspective this is awesome as well. Hellions are so boring to watch and so volatile and unforgiving, I just sighed every time I watched a Slayers game.
The mix of bio-mech will always be more interesting to watch, and indeed require more skill to play it. For me this patch couldn't come sooner, I'd love to see it before MLG this weekend. One can dream! ^_^
Its always tense when you watch a player LINE'EM UP
How is it tense? It's not tense because the second you see a massed group of hellions in someones base you know the game is going to be over fairly shortly. It's just way too unforgiving. Brilliant players are just getting owned far too quickly and easily without a fighting chance.
BFH are too cheap and far too easy to pull off. Anyway, this doesn't make blue flame completely useless. I've seen non-upgraded Hellions still wreck havoc on mineral lines. So the flexibility in Terran builds still exist, and people will still use Hellions no doubt. It was just a change that needed to happen because it was broken.
Broken? lol Raise depots, no more helions Get roaches, no more helions Get Stalkers, no more helions
People were getting raped by it because it was new. Suddenly 8 helions enter your base, people didnt knew what to do. I do agree that they are a very unforgiving unit, but seriously? We always knew that. Just because now people decided to make more than 2 hellions after the first 5 minutes of the game doesnt mean it is suddenly broken. We havent even exploited helions to its full potential. It makes no sense nerfing it or calling it broken within one month of relatively success on its use. And youre overestimating the hellion too much. Right now, helions have a future in a late game plan, and mech viability in all matchups. Nerfing the upgrade like this is the same as removing it since it makes helions cute opener with limited effectiveness.
On August 25 2011 21:58 Bagi wrote: Anyone else feel that BF should be made a bit cheaper with this change? You get half the damage for the same price now, feels a bit odd.
Regular reactor hellions will probably be the way to go in TvZ, in fact I don't see much reason to research BFH unless its a mech-heavy build now.
No. The hellion is still an incredibly powerful unit. Even if you removed the BF upgrade completely.
If I could warp in hellions as protoss or spawn them as zerg I'd do it every single game.
Top players will still be able to destroy workers with hellions but for the rest of us it just got a bit harder. I think that's a good thing.
I dont see the problem really, Hellions are pretty much made to destoy light units and att utterly useless vs anything els. I mean (extremly useless).
I believe a helion does 9damage? yey i'm having fun spending 30seconds with 4blueflame hellions trying to kill 1roach
If they were to nerf hellions vs light they have to buff them vs anything that isnt light because hellions are probably the most useless when it comes shoting on things it's not suppose to.
A maruder does really low damage on anything that isnt armored. But it's not so low that you wouldnt engage 1/3 smaller ball with light units. Compared to a group of hellions (lets say 10) wich basicly loses vs 4maruders. See the problem?
I mean how hard could it be to leave 1tank/spinecrawler at your mineral line incase of helion suprise. First time i ever got pwned by a hellion drop, i was pwned hard had 0minerals left and couldnt make another worker. After that i just learned how to play by learning the timing on the drop and getting seige befor that. Ye maybe a couple of workers will die but do people srly mean that you should get away with 0workers dead because you manage to put this 1unit to defend your base and you wouldnt manage to keep a better eye on what's going on around your base? That's pathetic.
And if they're going to keep it that +1 weapon hellions + blueflame can 2 shot workers and such...maybe they should lower gas cost of the armory so it's not 100 gas...one of the most difficult parts of trying to go mech TvP/TvZ is not the actual unit control, but trying to allocate all your gas to units + upgrades which is very, very difficult since armories cost 100 vespene gas, wheres engineering bays are only minerals, forges are only minerals, and evolution chambers are only minerals...factories all cost 100 gas...barracks are only minerals and gateways are only minerals...why is the armory 150/100? If they are going to nerf mech and keep it insanely difficult to do in TvP/TvZ they should consider making armories cheaper gas wise, more like 150/50.
The armory is more analogous to the lair or twighlight council by allowing you to continue upgrading from your forge, evo chamber, or eng bay. Btw the armory, lair, and twighlight council all cost 150/100
I sincerely think following changes are needed along with this BFH nerf:
Reduce the upgrade cost to either 100/100 or 75/75, and; Reduce the Armory building cost to 100/100.
In this way, BFH drops are still viable financially even with the delayed timing - Terran will need to build Armory and research +1 attack upgrade ASAP, and will probably finish the upgrade when BFHs have just landed to the enemy base.
On August 25 2011 23:44 Granter wrote: I dont see the problem really, Hellions are pretty much made to destoy light units and att utterly useless vs anything els. I mean (extremly useless).
I believe a helion does 9damage? yey i'm having fun spending 30seconds with 4blueflame hellions trying to kill 1roach
If they were to nerf hellions vs light they have to buff them vs anything that isnt light because hellions are probably the most useless when it comes shoting on things it's not suppose to.
A maruder does really low damage on anything that isnt armored. But it's not so low that you wouldnt engage 1/3 smaller ball with light units. Compared to a group of hellions (lets say 10) wich basicly loses vs 4maruders. See the problem?
I agree if they change Helions vs Light ( which is fine ) they'd have to buff it against anything else or the Unitt just becomes plain bad. Helions vs anything that isn't light is just pathetic which is why in lategame they are only used in Mech-only composition because you gotta do something with your spare minerals and at least they buffer some shots but as fighting units themselves they just suck. They shoot slow and the splash is pretty hard to use in big battles .
Well that's the problem with Terran units, they're all far too specialistic and reliant on bonus damage vs specific unit types. Just give us some solid mech units to work with Blizz :/
On August 26 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote: Well that's the problem with Terran units, they're all far too specialistic and reliant on bonus damage vs specific unit types. Just give us some solid mech units to work with Blizz :/
Doubt we're getting goliaths back, if that happend.... oh my oh my ...
On August 25 2011 14:45 Thorzain wrote: So rushing for blue flame will only be good against zerglings. No more gas before rax rush to blue flame as fast as possible anymore! Marines fighting!!!<3
You should practice ! Not write posts on TL.net ! :D
I don't mind hellions not being able to three-shot workers, but having to three-shot marines in both the early game (no stim, no combat shield) and late game (stim and combat shield) is highly aggravating to someone that goes out of his way to avoid tank-viking wars. I seriously disliked TvT until I started going hellion-air, which I think is far more fun (I'm not nearly good enough to really be entitled to an opinion on objective effectiveness, but it works better for me). Now, I feel like if the other T has a lot of marines - and really, how often do they not? - I have no choice but to get tanks with siege mode, or my own massive army of marines. Neither option sounds like much fun.
If the concern is early blue-flame hellion drops decimating worker lines, why not just make blue flame take longer to research (either via research time itself, or some sort of additional requirement - e.g., armory)? Or even make the hellions larger, and therefore more susceptible being sim city'd out?
On August 26 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote: Well that's the problem with Terran units, they're all far too specialistic and reliant on bonus damage vs specific unit types. Just give us some solid mech units to work with Blizz :/
Doubt we're getting goliaths back, if that happend.... oh my oh my ...
Think that wouldn't change much. The vulture on the other hand...
On August 26 2011 00:09 Saechiis wrote: Well that's the problem with Terran units, they're all far too specialistic and reliant on bonus damage vs specific unit types. Just give us some solid mech units to work with Blizz :/
Agree so hard with this. Was thinking about it for quite a while why in general protoss have 23units while zerg and terran have 21.
Than i started to look on what exactly you said, terran army (outside marines) are so much, okay random dude x builds this, i build that, he builds this, i build that. As terran you just addapt all the time what the other opponent is building with a counter unit.
I want mech unit that i can build beside the seige tank/hellions that are actually fairly good vs most units. Have maybe some basic counter but are just in general a good unit. Like stalker/marine typ of unit.
Dont really know what but not having any other option than Going for hellions wich are just badly designed. And tanks, wich makes the game slow as shit is just bad. And thors wich basicly doesnt have any skill invovled in them.
But since hellions are being nerfed the only doable thing now is to go into marine/tank gameplay again followed by a lot of marine/bunker rushes vs zerg
On August 25 2011 23:11 sephius wrote: From a players perspective, I hated using blue flame. To an extent I felt gimmicky. When I decimated worklines/marines I felt no joy, I just felt I was using a broken mechanic. I felt as if a lot of my games lost a lot of the skill element from just massing up on Hellions.
From a spectating perspective this is awesome as well. Hellions are so boring to watch and so volatile and unforgiving, I just sighed every time I watched a Slayers game.
The mix of bio-mech will always be more interesting to watch, and indeed require more skill to play it. For me this patch couldn't come sooner, I'd love to see it before MLG this weekend. One can dream! ^_^
Its always tense when you watch a player LINE'EM UP
How is it tense? It's not tense because the second you see a massed group of hellions in someones base you know the game is going to be over fairly shortly. It's just way too unforgiving. Brilliant players are just getting owned far too quickly and easily without a fighting chance.
BFH are too cheap and far too easy to pull off. Anyway, this doesn't make blue flame completely useless. I've seen non-upgraded Hellions still wreck havoc on mineral lines. So the flexibility in Terran builds still exist, and people will still use Hellions no doubt. It was just a change that needed to happen because it was broken.
Broken? lol Raise depots, no more helions Get roaches, no more helions Get Stalkers, no more helions
People were getting raped by it because it was new. Suddenly 8 helions enter your base, people didnt knew what to do. I do agree that they are a very unforgiving unit, but seriously? We always knew that. Just because now people decided to make more than 2 hellions after the first 5 minutes of the game doesnt mean it is suddenly broken. We havent even exploited helions to its full potential. It makes no sense nerfing it or calling it broken within one month of relatively success on its use. And youre overestimating the hellion too much. Right now, helions have a future in a late game plan, and mech viability in all matchups. Nerfing the upgrade like this is the same as removing it since it makes helions cute opener with limited effectiveness.
Don't really agree. With BFH, you could instantly win the game if your opponent didn't overwhelmingly defend them. They were basically like mineral-only super fast reusable banelings. And with the change, you can still do good damage if the other guy doesn't prepare well. But not to the point where your entire mineral line can go down in a couple shots while you reposition your defenses.
On August 25 2011 15:22 avilo wrote: And if they're going to keep it that +1 weapon hellions + blueflame can 2 shot workers and such...maybe they should lower gas cost of the armory so it's not 100 gas...one of the most difficult parts of trying to go mech TvP/TvZ is not the actual unit control, but trying to allocate all your gas to units + upgrades which is very, very difficult since armories cost 100 vespene gas, wheres engineering bays are only minerals, forges are only minerals, and evolution chambers are only minerals...factories all cost 100 gas...barracks are only minerals and gateways are only minerals...why is the armory 150/100? If they are going to nerf mech and keep it insanely difficult to do in TvP/TvZ they should consider making armories cheaper gas wise, more like 150/50.
I can't believe you are actually complaining about the gas cost of an armory. For Zerg to get any kind of T2 upgrade they need lair (which is pretty easy) however if they want T3 they need Hive (not exactly cheap between infestation pit + hive gas costs.
If protoss want T2 upgrades we need the throw down a twighlight council and for protoss who are going robo -> collosus the 100gas for robo + 200gas for support bay we don't exactly have a surplus of gas.
By making an armory which gives you access to thors (t3 unit) only cost minerals all you do is make thor rushing even more ridiculous vs protoss. All we would see out of terrans would be proxy factory thor rushes.
Its amazing how ignorant your post is, comparing an armory to engi bars, forges and evo chambers when they arn't even close to the same thing.
EPT
