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On August 25 2011 09:55 NATO wrote:
The problem with infestors (other than simply being too good) is that there is no way for the opponent to use their skill to reduce/overcome the spells of the infestors. Bascially it's all up to if the zerg player is good enough to get the spell off - once that happens there is nothing to do.
Even storms can be dodged to some degree.
No way? Bullshit. Feedback win, EMP win. I don't like this defeatist attitude at all. Every time someone bm's in a match about infestors I just tell him what his contemporaries do. Get caster units as well.
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I have no problem with any of the spells. I do have a problem with them being all bundled up in one little neat package. The unit is much too versatile. As a protoss let me quickly run through my options in mid/late game vs zerg:
blink stalker- infestor fungal now makes blinking impossible
pheonix/voids- fungal in place and throw some extremely high dps marines to clean up.
DT- revealed by fungal
Colossus- neural'd
Archon- neural'd
HT- alright here is the only option, it doesn't help that fungal is an AOE spell that has extra range on feedback because of it.
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On August 25 2011 09:59 tymt wrote:The only thing that bothers me with fungal growth is that it cant hit friendly units, makes it almost too user friendly. Meanwhile storm and emp can fuck you up if you just toss them around. Maybe pros know to handle these things but I have accidently emped my own orbital while chasing some annoying dts  I am a zerg player in 1v1s. Just felt I had to point that out before someone yells "terran tears!" 
wow you can emp an orbital? mind blown
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On August 25 2011 09:59 tymt wrote:The only thing that bothers me with fungal growth is that it cant hit friendly units, makes it almost too user friendly. Meanwhile storm and emp can fuck you up if you just toss them around. Maybe pros know to handle these things but I have accidently emped my own orbital while chasing some annoying dts I am a zerg player in 1v1s. Just felt I had to point that out before someone yells "terran tears!"
this is a good point lol, why the hell do fungal not friendly fire?
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On August 25 2011 09:55 NATO wrote:
The problem with infestors (other than simply being too good) is that there is no way for the opponent to use their skill to reduce/overcome the spells of the infestors. Bascially it's all up to if the zerg player is good enough to get the spell off - once that happens there is nothing to do.
Even storms can be dodged to some degree.
You can't spread your units out? Sentries are spread against ghosts, why can't people do the same against fungals? Of course doing that wouldn't overcome any part of fungal..right?
Also OP you forgot to mention that infested terrans take time to spawn rendering them much less effective than what is implied.
On August 25 2011 09:52 akalarry wrote:
the only thing i dont like about infestors is how easily they can take out a base. the main problem is burrow movement. it's ridiculously hard to see them coming unless you have a random turret, cannon, or overseer far away from your base scouts it.
Two words.
Dark Templar
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This was an absolutely fantastic post, it really opened my eyes to just how amazing the Infestor really is. I hope Blizzard lets players try and figure out its various uses and counters before they nerf it.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 25 2011 09:56 cHaNg-sTa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 09:07 Whitewing wrote:
Infested terran is probably too strong a spell as is, if you sneak a couple infestors into a base an spam them while forces are out of position, you'll take down command centers. Dealing with them without AoE is pretty much impossible for protoss, and thrown into big engagements they can do absurd amounts of damage while soaking hits.
I have no issue with fungal growth or neural parasite though. ... That's like saying DT's sneaking into zerg's base and killing a hatchery = too strong
Not quite, DT's have very low hit points and can be dealt with reasonably easily if you can detect them. Once the infested terrans are out, unless you get back quickly with a lot of AoE damage, you're losing a CC/hatch/nexus. Plus, DT's can't hang out at the ramp and fungal troops trying to run back up the ramp in order to save that CC/hatch/nexus. DT's are also a joke in engagements, infested terrans actually are very good when thrown in during straight up fights.
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Infestors are the best two food in the game, and they were the best two food in the game back when Zerg players refused to use them and Protoss players insisted that Zerg players should use them. There's a damn good reason ZvZ decays into Infestor wars.
However, Hydralisks are awful. Move some of the love from the Infestor to the Hydra, please?
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On August 25 2011 10:00 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 09:59 tymt wrote:The only thing that bothers me with fungal growth is that it cant hit friendly units, makes it almost too user friendly. Meanwhile storm and emp can fuck you up if you just toss them around. Maybe pros know to handle these things but I have accidently emped my own orbital while chasing some annoying dts I am a zerg player in 1v1s. Just felt I had to point that out before someone yells "terran tears!" this is a good point lol, why the hell do fungal not friendly fire?
Imagine dealing with zerglings if storm didnt hit your own units 
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I don't think they are imbalanced, against Terran at least. Have never played Protoss. I think Zerg needs a spellcaster to deal with groups of marines quickly where tanks are covering them from banelings, lings etc.
Infestors have a big reward for creative use, like 2 infestors bombing an expansion or main with infested terrans, or fungalling a load of workers. I like that.
Only thing I don't really like is that you can't load fungalled units into medivacs.
As Terran, tank's range deals with them well enough and can delay until ghosts are out so I have no issue with them. Mass infestor play does not worry me too much as long as I can produce ghosts.
Scariest thing about them is the harass potential, imo. But not a lot of Zergs seem willing to send 2 of them off and micro them elsewhere, sitting in a Protoss mindset
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On August 25 2011 09:57 Bactrian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 09:55 NATO wrote:
The problem with infestors (other than simply being too good) is that there is no way for the opponent to use their skill to reduce/overcome the spells of the infestors. Bascially it's all up to if the zerg player is good enough to get the spell off - once that happens there is nothing to do.
Even storms can be dodged to some degree. ?? Split your units and use detection/snipes/feedback?
Feedback, yes. It's so easy and quick it can go down while the Protoss player is macroing and the Zerg player is microing his Infestors. Snipe, it's kinda even with Fungal. It has a longer range, but seriously, how long are you ever in exactly 10 range of an Infestor? You don't get that much time until he closes in or moves away, and with 12 Infestors the 2 that you kill won't be horribly missed. Two fungals and a large pack of zerglings would tear up any bioball/ghost push.
I'd still argue that the two units, the Infestor and the Ghost are equal, but in different ways.
the Infestor is more about targeting a large pack of units. The Ghost (in TvZ) is more about targeting that one special unit. They do their different jobs equally well.
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On August 25 2011 10:00 VectorCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 09:55 NATO wrote:
The problem with infestors (other than simply being too good) is that there is no way for the opponent to use their skill to reduce/overcome the spells of the infestors. Bascially it's all up to if the zerg player is good enough to get the spell off - once that happens there is nothing to do.
Even storms can be dodged to some degree. You can't spread your units out? Sentries are spread against ghosts, why can't people do the same against fungals? Of course doing that wouldn't overcome any part of fungal..right? Also OP you forgot to mention that infested terrans take time to spawn rendering them much less effective than what is implied. Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 09:52 akalarry wrote:
the only thing i dont like about infestors is how easily they can take out a base. the main problem is burrow movement. it's ridiculously hard to see them coming unless you have a random turret, cannon, or overseer far away from your base scouts it. Two words. Dark Templar
lol. dt is the worst possible comparison. useless in an actual battle, only thing it can do is snipe bases/workers. infestors can do that AND be the most important unit in an actual battle. also killing 5 dts is easier than killing 35 infested terrans. the most important thing is that you get infestors anyway because it's used in an actual fight. a byproduct is that it can tear down a base at will.
now if a dt could also fungal then we'd be talking
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As already stated before, i don't consider the Infestor to be OP, but any BLord/Ling/Ultra- Infestor compositin.
I admit, it's easier to FB an Infestor instead of a ghost, since they cannot simply cloak snipe/EMP you, but still, I struggle hard agaisnt FG. The reason is quite simple. Stunned Stalker suck against Ultras, BLings or Lings, stunned Zealot suck aswell. One or two well placed FG nullify any Toss movement, which actually is the only thing making Toss units so deadly.
The way i would sole this Problem: remove the rooting ability of FG. Units should still suffer the full amount of damage, but they should be able to somehow defend themselves (not only by attacking).
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Infested terrans don't win vs marines you can micro marines to avoid being by shot by all the infested terrans, you cant do the same with infested terrans.
It is similar to the Orbital Command's "scan" ability, in the sense that the inappropriate use of this ability is a waste of precious energy, however when used correctly, it is the difference between winning and losing.
You cant compare 50 energy on a CC to 100 energy on an Infestor, one is game changing the other is definitely not except in the case of early DT's in TvP, or a cloaked banshee opening in TvT.
He has with him what is most probably the highest maximum potential damage output of any unit in the game.
Stupid statement, every unit has an infinite maximum potential damage output if it is kept alive.
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Infestor anti both air and ground so well. Kill workers with 1.5 FGs, infested Terran kill build with their insane dps. NP destroyed mech and massive units. Funny how it has energy upgrade.
So Over all it's the best unit of the game.
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Infestors are far too good.
With perfect control the only viable counter are ghosts. Everything else is out ranged by fungals 9 plus aoe.
Even neural is a massively OP spell. You should not give a 2 supply unit essentially a 1 shot kill ability unless it is really difficult to cast or effectively defendable with micro.
This is especially problematic versus protoss, a faction that has no combat unit costing less than 2 supply. The spell is supply effective even if you were using it on zealots!
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nerf marines and sentrys and ill be fine with having my infestor nerfed
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On August 25 2011 10:00 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 09:59 tymt wrote:The only thing that bothers me with fungal growth is that it cant hit friendly units, makes it almost too user friendly. Meanwhile storm and emp can fuck you up if you just toss them around. Maybe pros know to handle these things but I have accidently emped my own orbital while chasing some annoying dts I am a zerg player in 1v1s. Just felt I had to point that out before someone yells "terran tears!" this is a good point lol, why the hell do fungal not friendly fire?
Because the function before the buff was too keep targets still so that Z-Armys who consist mainly of Melee or low-range Units can't be kited into oblivion. Making it friendly-fire would have completly countered its own purpose.
I guees that's still the main point why it doesn't friendly fire. Additionally EMP friendly fire really isn't that dangerous to Terran Units themselves (if you aren't stupid enough to EMP all your own ghosts ;D) and neither is Storm to Toss Units who have across the board pretty high hp values (even in the very seldom PvP Lategame you see Templars really only used for Archons).
Regarding the topic: They are completly fine in ZvT, nobody cares about ZvZ and Toss annihilated Z Lategame before the infestor buffs. As soon as toss gets up to 4 bases they rolled Z and are (though very dependant of the game up to this point) still debatably favored in those situations.
Were Infestors the wrong unit to buff and they should have gone some of mostly useless Z-Units like Hydras Corruptors or Ultras - sure. But Blizzard seldomly admits mistakes and I don't think it would be right to reset Infestors to their old state without some form of compensation.
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I personally feel infestors (for their cost) are overpowered, but not that zerg is. If at all possible, I would love to see changes that made units like Hydras and Ultras a bit stronger so that there is more variety and strategy involved, while nerfing infestors a bit.
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On August 25 2011 10:02 akalarry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 10:00 VectorCereal wrote:On August 25 2011 09:55 NATO wrote:
The problem with infestors (other than simply being too good) is that there is no way for the opponent to use their skill to reduce/overcome the spells of the infestors. Bascially it's all up to if the zerg player is good enough to get the spell off - once that happens there is nothing to do.
Even storms can be dodged to some degree. You can't spread your units out? Sentries are spread against ghosts, why can't people do the same against fungals? Of course doing that wouldn't overcome any part of fungal..right? Also OP you forgot to mention that infested terrans take time to spawn rendering them much less effective than what is implied. On August 25 2011 09:52 akalarry wrote:
the only thing i dont like about infestors is how easily they can take out a base. the main problem is burrow movement. it's ridiculously hard to see them coming unless you have a random turret, cannon, or overseer far away from your base scouts it. Two words. Dark Templar lol. dt is the worst possible comparison. useless in an actual battle, only thing it can do is snipe bases/workers. infestors can do that AND be the most important unit in an actual battle. also killing 5 dts is easier than killing 35 infested terrans. the most important thing is that you get infestors anyway because it's used in an actual fight. a byproduct is that it can tear down a base at will. now if a dt could also fungal then we'd be talking
I see you didn't watch MC vs Idra when MC had a DT hitting each hydra once to maximize DPS. Also killing 35 infested terrans takes 1 storm if they are clumped up. All of your argument is situational. Why don't you have cannons at your expos to stop infested terrans? What stops mutas from wrecking you then? By your logic mutalisks are equally as imbalanced because they help in army fights and can take out bases!
The comparison was based on what you said. A unit that kills bases effectively. By comparing to the DT I pointed out how easy it is to stop them from killing bases.
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EPT
