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On August 25 2011 09:38 Benzzro wrote:
I just hate the fact as a Protoss player that hates turtling, I...Well pretty much need to turtle against Infestors, I love moving around with blink stalkers and what not but I think it's pretty stupid to have a spell that just sticks the unit in place, I would love Fungal to just slow, but also cause slower attack speed (A buff for a nerf), something like that, I don't necessarily think it needs to be nerfed, just changed
You should watch
+ Show Spoiler +
JYPs games against DRG, he harrassed all game long and beat the infestor style Zerg not much turtling too!
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I think the animation/model of the infestor comes from the movie; starship trooper. Yeah, that's right.
OT: Mass infestors isn't viable = Not OP
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The infestor is the closest thing Zerg have to what you would call a 'tech advantage in ZvP'.
In TvP, if Terran goes for a marine marauder ghost ghost timing off 2 base, against a Protoss who goes fast colossus after expand, the Terran is screwed if his push fails. Right before the push, he scans, and sees spread out sentries and 1 colossus. He has 2 options: push and emp and hope to win. Or, he can retreat. If he retreats, Protoss hits a timing with 3 colossus with range and Terran is powerless to stop it. Basically, Terran has sacrificed tech to do a big powerful push, and even if there is no single unit lost or cut scv, he is in big big trouble if he cannot do damage. Protoss has a tech advantage.
Consider this from old school PvZ. Protoss does a 7 gate blink all in against Zerg. Protoss observer sees the army and sees a huge amount of roach ling ready to defend because the Zerg diligently scouted and realized an all in was coming. No matter for Protoss, he retreats, places down a third and makes a death ball. Zerg is left crippled by not making drones whilst preparing for an all in and cannot attack into cannons and sentries with anything. Protoss invested into an all in build, but could transition so easily out of it because there was no more tech which he needed in which to counter the zerg. Hydras? Blink stalkers. Mass lings? Ff and blink stalkers with cannon support. 200 roach push? Blink stalkers.
How about new school pvz? Protoss does the same risky all in, obs sees roach ling and decides to back off taking a third instead. Suddenly, zerg is down your throat with fungals and rips through your blink stalkers, ravaging your third and you leave the game. So what does Protoss do? Just all INS off 2 base. Infestors now dominate the mid game as long as Protoss doesn't keep up in tech. If anything, the infestor is now punishing Protoss players for not committing to their all in builds. If a Protoss 6 gates Terran and fails, Terran gets 4 medivacs and a moves towards the Protoss base. Zerg has that utility now with the infestor. Maybe we should say goodbye to warp gate timings. Who knows, there might be crazy Phoenix zealot multi pronged harassment with storm drops to abuse how slow infestors are.
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Fungal growth is fine... It makes infestors awesome against groups of small units and prevents micro, which is annoying but not really overpowered.
Neural parasite is fine... It makes infestors good once large game-changing units are out, by turning these against the opponent.
Infested terrans are fine... They help a lot against air, and give infestors a very strong tool against buildings for a low cost.
Burrow move (and their good moving speed) is fine... It makes infestors able to survive better than most casters, and gives them more harrass options.
I have no problem with any of these particular skills being available to zerg. However, all these good abilities are on the same unit, and perhaps that makes them too versatile. Controlled correctly, they're incredibly cost-effective against almost everything and very difficult to counter.
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infestor doesn't force a response, it forces a protoss to be all in if he ever decides to attack or just camp until 6 expand mothership 3 stargate 3 robos 24 gateways, templars, dts, colossus, voidrays, stalkers and sentries
and even doing that you're barely cost effective against a 2 unit composition
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On August 25 2011 09:41 Micket wrote:
The infestor is the closest thing Zerg have to what you would call a 'tech advantage in ZvP'.
In TvP, if Terran goes for a marine marauder ghost ghost timing off 2 base, against a Protoss who goes fast colossus after expand, the Terran is screwed if his push fails. Right before the push, he scans, and sees spread out sentries and 1 colossus. He has 2 options: push and emp and hope to win. Or, he can retreat. If he retreats, Protoss hits a timing with 3 colossus with range and Terran is powerless to stop it. Basically, Terran has sacrificed tech to do a big powerful push, and even if there is no single unit lost or cut scv, he is in big big trouble if he cannot do damage. Protoss has a tech advantage.
Consider this from old school PvZ. Protoss does a 7 gate blink all in against Zerg. Protoss observer sees the army and sees a huge amount of roach ling ready to defend because the Zerg diligently scouted and realized an all in was coming. No matter for Protoss, he retreats, places down a third and makes a death ball. Zerg is left crippled by not making drones whilst preparing for an all in and cannot attack into cannons and sentries with anything. Protoss invested into an all in build, but could transition so easily out of it because there was no more tech which he needed in which to counter the zerg. Hydras? Blink stalkers. Mass lings? Ff and blink stalkers with cannon support. 200 roach push? Blink stalkers.
How about new school pvz? Protoss does the same risky all in, obs sees roach ling and decides to back off taking a third instead. Suddenly, zerg is down your throat with fungals and rips through your blink stalkers, ravaging your third and you leave the game. So what does Protoss do? Just all INS off 2 base. Infestors now dominate the mid game as long as Protoss doesn't keep up in tech. If anything, the infestor is now punishing Protoss players for not committing to their all in builds. If a Protoss 6 gates Terran and fails, Terran gets 4 medivacs and a moves towards the Protoss base. Zerg has that utility now with the infestor. Maybe we should say goodbye to warp gate timings. Who knows, there might be crazy Phoenix zealot multi pronged harassment with storm drops to abuse how slow infestors are.
Amazingly said, good sir, amazingly said.
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Wonderfully written op, very informative, I personally see Infestors as a completely balanced unit which in the right hands can be sick good and change battles/harass but in the wrong hands can be a huge waste of money and time (and I main T so its not a bias lol).
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On August 25 2011 09:38 Zahki wrote:The infestor balances the scales, much like Forcefield for Protoss. Zerg needs them to compete, because Fungal Growth is the only AoE damage Zerg has apart from Banelings, which aren't that useful against a deathball. Hopefully in HotS Zerg gets a T2 artillery unit that does splash and then Fungal can be reverted back to 8s duration without the extra damaged to armor, until then it should remain the way it is. Show nested quote +As a terran player, the reason why terrans and protoss players have difficulty against infestors because it is a unit that forces a response Seriously? Whats wrong with that. Zerg dies if they don't respond properly to certain Terran and Protoss builds, I see no problem at all with requiring the other 2 races to respond properly against certain unit compositions. Thats StarCraft. It's not like Zerg are hard to scout.
Baneling drops are very strong against deathballs, and even stronger if they can get Fungal support. Moreover, it allows for an extremely dangerous form of harass from Zerg that forces Protoss to stay on the defensive and can instantly win games if not responded to correctly.
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In my opinion, the infestor is an overpowered unit when used correctly or in numbers. This comes from a Protoss player's perspective. Infestors make pressuring a Zerg much harder because they force you to go all in with fungal. At the same time, the Zerg race requires continual pressure against it, because keeping the Zerg from droning or getting 10+ infestors is essential as Protoss. The fact that Zergs can already "outmacro" a Protoss is already powerful enough. Having a unit like an infestor (which has an upgrade for starting energy that HTs no longer have) is simply too much for a Protoss "death ball" (an archaic term now in PvZ) to deal with.
I think both fungal and infested Terran are too powerful and have made PvZ a match up for the Zerg player to win or lose, rather than a competition.
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i would say they are a litttle op, no big deal though.
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On August 25 2011 09:13 seoulsun wrote:
u do know that without infestors zerg were pretty shit
this was blizzard attempt to fix a broken race
Zerg always had Infestors though.
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On August 25 2011 09:36 Tomfour wrote:
Maybe it's a little strong, but I don't think so. More people just need to get ghosts/Hts to specifically counter it. It's a somewhat large unit(for a spellcaster) so it's pretty easy to target to do whatever you need to so that you can disable it.
I mean when people were started using ghosts way back when and protoss only wen colossi all you heard were T is op cries, granted they did change emp a little bit, but only the way it affects energy. When Toss started making HTs people cried about that as well, granted they took out kydrian amulet so that definitely kept it from being op, but it's still a very strong unit.
It's not like you can't counter this unit. Fungal doesn't last as long now so people can move away from it if they are hit by it, and hey if you get hit, bring something up to kill or emp/feedback the one that is probably going to recast.
I honestly have no way to fix it that I can think of that wouldn't ruin it completely so I guess I just have to defend how it is. I'd say nerf infested T's but seriously, nobody makes 40 of these like these guy said, you see a couple because they are so slow and easy to avoid. They are only a problem if, like DTs, get into your base and you don't have detection or anything to kill them with.
Lol honestly, your post just sounds like you've never really played at a high level, you make it sound asif Zerg will only have 2-3 infestors or something when infact they can have around 7-8 quite early on since they just need to spend minerals for lings and spines to defend the early game (At least against Protoss). Once there's 10 +, it's not as simpl as 'feedback' an infestors, Protoss is such a gas heavy race, we don't have 8+ HTs sitting around for feedback, if you get your army caught, chances are it's pretty much dead.
You also say people don't make 40 infested Terrans, and well...That's just wrong.
As my post before says, I think it just needs to get changed, not really nerfed (Maybe a bit).
As a Protoss player I still think there needs to be more time before nerfing it. I've gone double stargate phoenix play with chargelots and it worked quite well, I still think there's a few unit comps to explore before nerfing it.
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It's a good amount of power to have in the zerg arsenal, but it's too much utility in a single unit. I won't try to say how, but some of it's utility should be moved to other units in the zerg lineup. Additionally there should probably be lower tech units that somehow act as a soft counter to fungal growth's AoE - the same way that marauders and roaches (esp burrow) can just ignore light levels of storming, and zealots are chuffier vs EMP. Making it, say, an 85% snare rather than a full root might be one idea.
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On August 25 2011 09:31 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 09:27 Joey Wheeler wrote:
Technically marines are still cheaper than Infested Terrans. A single Infestor, at the cost of 100/150, can produce 8 Infested Terrans on a single energy bar. Infested Terrans actually beat the crap out of Marines. But for arguments sake, lets say that each Infested Terran = 1 Marine. That's 400 minerals "worth" of units. In the hands of a skillful player, such as Destiny, that Infestor will not die. He will get 8 more. And then 8 more. And more if the game continues.
You have to remember that the units being attacked can just walk away, which is why infested are only used in mineral lines if it isn't safe to unburrow and fungal. And, as you said, they kill each other after 30s. Seeing as how energy regeneration is 0.5625 every second (Liquipedia), then that means that it takes almost six minutes to regenerate that energy. And that's uninterrupted.
Not to mention that if a HT gets to a full infestor, it can be killed instantly.
As for fungal, you can get off a maximum of two per infestor, and that takes 4 and a half minutes to regen (assuming you did the fungal when at 150 mana). And as for its nine range, against a late-game deathball, getting within range of the colossi is rather difficult, and parasite has the same range. They are also squishyer (not a word, I know) than a real water balloon filled with soldiers infected by an alien virus, mind-controlling parasites, and murderous fungi spores.
I think infestors are balanced out. They serve as a counter to play styles, rather than specific units, as all spell casters do. Regardless of rage against them, they have a job, and they perform it well. And, as the OP said, they are only really effective in the hands of an experienced player. Hate the man, not his tools.
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I think fungal should be changed to slow instead of stun but should last for a longer duration. Also, zerg has no counter to infestor like T or P does so it makes zvz pretty lame. It gets owned by the other 2 spell casters so id say its balanced but its still kind of a lame unit since you cant micro after getting fungaled.
I like where neural parasite is at right now. People were saying before that it doesn't last long enough. I think its pretty good tho, maybe add 3 sec but im fine with it as it is.
Infested terran...idk i just dont like the spell except when its used in cute way like making a wall or surrounding a group of units so they cant get out. It can be used in a fun way in small numbers but when u spam like 30 of them its kind of stupid tbh.
tl;dr I think its balanced but not as fun to use or enjoyable to watch as it could be.
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On August 25 2011 09:40 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 09:38 Benzzro wrote:
I just hate the fact as a Protoss player that hates turtling, I...Well pretty much need to turtle against Infestors, I love moving around with blink stalkers and what not but I think it's pretty stupid to have a spell that just sticks the unit in place, I would love Fungal to just slow, but also cause slower attack speed (A buff for a nerf), something like that, I don't necessarily think it needs to be nerfed, just changed You should watch + Show Spoiler +
JYPs games against DRG, he harrassed all game long and beat the infestor style Zerg not much turtling too!
Which set was it if you don't mind me asking, I only watched like 10 mins of the first game 
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woh u mean if u spread out marines then infestors fungal is really bad and then marines just roll them? O_O and if u afraid of infestors fungaling ur mineral line put 1-2 cannons near the edge of ur mineral patch or on the ledge or turret and 4 marines in a bunker thats really not that much to expend to save a mineral line
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On August 25 2011 09:13 seoulsun wrote:
u do know that without infestors zerg were pretty shit
this was blizzard attempt to fix a broken race
I think so too. Infestor is definitely the best caster in the game, but it just seems like it's necessary in every match-up to combat mid/late-game armies.
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infestor is a powerful unit, just like other units on the game ex. colossus, in other words not OP.
if you are losing to players who use this unit a lot, you are not making enough ghosts/high templars.
Less QQ, More PewPew.
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On August 25 2011 09:29 Senros wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 09:08 MK4512 wrote:
I feel like fungal is a little bit OP right now, whereas most zerg units are UP, so it kind of balances out, but I don't think in the correct way. Infested terrans seem a little OP right now, because of how hard eggs are to kill and how quickly they can be cast.
As a protoss, having 46 damage + lack of mobility kills any kind of play other than 'deathball' play. Because blink stalkers, etc. becomes rather un-viable.
Combined with lings, ultras, or broods, infestors get even better.
Personally I think that infestors should be nerfed a bit, but not before other z units are buffed. Actually, deathablls get wrecked by fungal..so infestors simply make deathball play not that viable.
In comparison to a blink stalker or air army, they do exceedingly well
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EPT
