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On August 29 2011 03:38 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 03:35 NeonFox wrote:On August 29 2011 03:09 Blyadischa wrote:
Units to counter infestors? Fungal growth or neural parasite and use them to counter themselves. Please, feedback and emp both have a higher range then fungal, and if you let one of your ghost/templars get NP long enough for the zerg to use it against you, you deserve what happens next. Feedback has 9, as Fungal. But Fungal has AOE, so effectively higher. Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 03:36 Chargelot wrote:On August 29 2011 03:35 NeonFox wrote:On August 29 2011 03:09 Blyadischa wrote:
Units to counter infestors? Fungal growth or neural parasite and use them to counter themselves. Please, feedback and emp both have a higher range then fungal, and if you let one of your ghost/templars get NP long enough for the zerg to use it against you, you deserve what happens next. Not to mention feedback can actually be map-clicked, essentially bringing it down to an auto-cast. It's not reliable, because you have to hit pixel perfect. Clicking on the model is easier.
It's how I trained myself to use it. And even larva vomits with queens. It works on Infestors cause they're actually large on the map. I was speaking from my own point of view, didn't really consider others'. D:
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As a random player I'd say TvP has the same issue as PvZ. If Protoss gets those storms of it might heavily swing the game in their favor, if they get emp'd it's not good but might not loose them the game, atleast not intill teh top lvl. If a zerg gets too chain fungel, NP and spam infested terrans P is in alot of trubble, a lost army against a zerg often means a loss. And if P managae too get those feedbacks and stalker/colossi micro going the game often moves on from there.
If one of them are imbalanced so is the other imo. I find it harder too land good enough emp's vs toss then too micro colossi and feedbacks vs Z tbh, even when they play that Destiny mass infestor style.
Edit: Master lvl btw, if that adds any credit.
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On August 29 2011 07:50 Zypher_ wrote:
As a random player I'd say TvP has the same issue as PvZ. If Protoss gets those storms of it might heavily swing the game in their favor, if they get emp'd it's not good but might not loose them the game, atleast not intill teh top lvl. If a zerg gets too chain fungel, NP and spam infested terrans P is in alot of trubble, a lost army against a zerg often means a loss. And if P managae too get those feedbacks and stalker/colossi micro going the game often moves on from there.
If one of them are imbalanced so is the other imo. I find it harder too land good enough emp's vs toss then too micro colossi and feedbacks vs Z tbh, even when they play that Destiny mass infestor style.
Edit: Master lvl btw, if that adds any credit.
Lol, if a protoss gets his high templar EMP'd he has definitely lost the game unless he had a massive lead. We see this time and time again where gateway armies without HT support absolutely melt to terran armies which drop a couple supply.
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United States7483 Posts
Infestors are just too versatile, I think fungal is fine as is tbh, but infested terrans might be too good (maybe, not sure). That said, having both spells AND neural + burrow move lets the unit do almost everything, and an army of nothing but infestors would be absurdly strong.
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Infestors will still be good after the Nerf. I think the reason Ts and Ps are flipping out right now is that they were never used to not being able to attack straight up. Zergs had to learn to weasel and position themselves long time ago, but Infestor hunting is not the Protoss' specialty.
I just don't understand why Toss can't help but morph their HTs into Archons as if they had the plague. Yeah we have lings, but your zealots are just fine. Storm and feedback until kingdom come before morphing those! You get what you deserve if you charge on with Archons.
Phoenixes and HTs are two good counters. The deathball is gone forever though, and it won't be missed.
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Infestors are very bizarre, in my honest opinion I feel like they were put in place to fill the spellcaster role that was missing in sc2 zerg...
'Fungal Growth' seems to combine a less fatal version of 'Plague' with a more extreme 'Ensnare' from Brood War. My problem with it, is protoss have sentries and high templar, which are very good in their own right. Terran have Ravens and Ghosts, which are also very very useful. And Zerg have THE infestor which to make up for this is just like an overall amazing spellcaster.
It seems to be in place because Zerg have no way to deal with spellcasters i.e Feedback/EMP. And the only way to give them this is to stop units from moving and doing any abilities. Yet I feel if it made units move at 25% of their actual speed, it would be easier for Zerg to avoid a slow ghost trying to get in range for an EMP. And it would add a slight hint of micro-ability for the other races.
I would have absolutely no problem with it, if it couldn't be chain used keeping your units in the same place, incapable of being recovered.
I think everything will be fixed come HotS, if Fungal did not stop movement and abilities, but slow it. And Zerg could have an ability like Dark Swarm from the first game, which gives the units protection from special abilities but maybe not all attacks.
All Zerg need is a tier free spellcaster. That's all that I think is missing. Zerg late game misses the dynamics of the match ups.
I think the reason people cry imbalance is more to do with how frustrating it feels for your army to just be completely frozen leaving a player incapable of doing anything but watch their microless army get surrounded and destroyed.
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On September 06 2011 12:01 silentblob wrote:
Infestors are very bizarre, in my honest opinion I feel like they were put in place to fill the spellcaster role that was missing in sc2 zerg...
'Fungal Growth' seems to combine a less fatal version of 'Plague' with a more extreme 'Ensnare' from Brood War. My problem with it, is protoss have sentries and high templar, which are very good in their own right. Terran have Ravens and Ghosts, which are also very very useful. And Zerg have THE infestor which to make up for this is just like an overall amazing spellcaster.
It seems to be in place because Zerg have no way to deal with spellcasters i.e Feedback/EMP. And the only way to give them this is to stop units from moving and doing any abilities. Yet I feel if it made units move at 25% of their actual speed, it would be easier for Zerg to avoid a slow ghost trying to get in range for an EMP. And it would add a slight hint of micro-ability for the other races.
I would have absolutely no problem with it, if it couldn't be chain used keeping your units in the same place, incapable of being recovered.
I think everything will be fixed come HotS, if Fungal did not stop movement and abilities, but slow it. And Zerg could have an ability like Dark Swarm from the first game, which gives the units protection from special abilities but maybe not all attacks.
All Zerg need is a tier free spellcaster. That's all that I think is missing. Zerg late game misses the dynamics of the match ups.
I think the reason people cry imbalance is more to do with how frustrating it feels for your army to just be completely frozen leaving a player incapable of doing anything but watch their microless army get surrounded and destroyed.
You're right about the surrounded part. It's like FF 4 gates were, except slightly worse(I was Zerg at that time and am Terran now).
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i remember the queen being an excellent fighter [or at least tank] as well ^^ technically it could be considered the second caster....
maybe, just maybe, we'll be seeing more strats involving (mass) queens and (even) more creep generation in a year or so vOv
or perhaps we'll stick them into overlords and go ninja dropping creep tumors all over the map (read: expos) or use them as poor man's medivacs to heal ultras/broodlords.
i certainly don't have the APM for that but such borderline insane gameplay will be needed to make sc2 as watchable as BW's goon dance, drop ship micro etc.
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On August 31 2011 13:22 Psychlone wrote:
Infestors will still be good after the Nerf. I think the reason Ts and Ps are flipping out right now is that they were never used to not being able to attack straight up. Zergs had to learn to weasel and position themselves long time ago, but Infestor hunting is not the Protoss' specialty.
I just don't understand why Toss can't help but morph their HTs into Archons as if they had the plague. Yeah we have lings, but your zealots are just fine. Storm and feedback until kingdom come before morphing those! You get what you deserve if you charge on with Archons.
Phoenixes and HTs are two good counters. The deathball is gone forever though, and it won't be missed.
infestors outrange feedback. So you have to float your incredibly slow moving HT in front of your army while the zerg can keep in the back.
Imo if they changed infestor range down or feedback up it would make the HT a more viable counter [Terran ghosts dont have that trouble obviously/tanks out range everyone unlike the colosis]
Also if infestors could do friend fire the way storm is zerg wouldnt be able to chain spam fungal as liberally because their zerglings would die to.
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A 2 food unit should not be able to spawn 8 stimmed marines. 4 casters should not be able to kill a base in a few seconds flat unless its Ghosts nuking simultaneously.
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All i have to say to this is - destiny.
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On August 29 2011 07:50 Zypher_ wrote:
As a random player I'd say TvP has the same issue as PvZ. If Protoss gets those storms of it might heavily swing the game in their favor, if they get emp'd it's not good but might not loose them the game, atleast not intill teh top lvl. If a zerg gets too chain fungel, NP and spam infested terrans P is in alot of trubble, a lost army against a zerg often means a loss. And if P managae too get those feedbacks and stalker/colossi micro going the game often moves on from there.
If one of them are imbalanced so is the other imo. I find it harder too land good enough emp's vs toss then too micro colossi and feedbacks vs Z tbh, even when they play that Destiny mass infestor style.
Edit: Master lvl btw, if that adds any credit.
You know, that has me thinking - Maybe it's not that infestors are too good, but that High Templar might too shitty at handling them (probably in the movespeed department) - When I watch high level games, HT vs Ghost and HT vs Infestor matchups almost always end poorly for the Protoss. The problem seems to be in how Feedback needs to be used - you almost always have to send the HT forward, and it's SO SLOW that even if you get your feedback off, you're probably going to lose the HT, losing the same amount of gas as your opponent (not an ideal prospect vs zerg, who likely has more bases than you.) And that's supposed to be the "correct" way to use feedback? (the only way to land them against top players, anyway.)
Even if you're doing it right, if your opponent, using an Infestor or Ghost or just 3 stimmed marauders or some mutas or speedlings or whatever, you lose your HT to no effect. Their spellcasters outrange feedback AND have more movespeed. We all know what happens when you both are outranged and outspeeded by the enemy - you get kited. The onus is entirely on the P's opponent to fuck up and let feedbacks land on their spellcasters, which are probably behind their units, so even if feedbacks go off, the HT is still good as dead since it's one of the slowest units in the game.
There doesn't seem to be a "correct" way for protoss to snipe enemy casters like this. They send their HT forward, and hope that their opponent is playing poorly, or they engage and just try to suck the full force of the enemy spellcasters. Protoss really seem to have a disadvantage in high level games lately when the game goes into a heavy spellcaster game, whether it be PVT or PVZ.
My conclusion? It's not the infestor that's OP. It's the Protoss' choices at handling enemy spellcasters.
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On September 06 2011 17:59 arterian wrote:
A 2 food unit should not be able to spawn 8 stimmed marines. 4 casters should not be able to kill a base in a few seconds flat unless its Ghosts nuking simultaneously.
They're temporary unstimmed marines without mobility with 5s delay hey. They're nowhere near as good in an actual army-vs-army battle, their main use is building sniping.
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On September 06 2011 18:04 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 17:59 arterian wrote:
A 2 food unit should not be able to spawn 8 stimmed marines. 4 casters should not be able to kill a base in a few seconds flat unless its Ghosts nuking simultaneously. They're temporary unstimmed marines without mobility with 5s delay hey. They're nowhere near as good in an actual army-vs-army battle, their main use is building sniping.
Yeah, if 40 infested terrans met 40 marines, 40 marines win. Because they run away. ITs are ONLY useful when you are forcing a big fight to happen in a location (fungal) or killing buildings. Marines are good at like... everything.
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In my humble opinion, the Infestor is the only useful unit of the Zerg with active abilities, but it can't attack directly, so it is considered a spellcaster.
Terrans and Protoss units have so many abilities eg.: Force Field, Guardian Shield, Graviton Beam, Siege Mode, Stim Pack, Blink, Turret, Seeker Missiles, Thor's Cannons. - all of these boost the unit's potential in mobility, attack, or buys space on the map.
Now look at Zerg's main units: Roach, Hydra, Zerglings, Mutalisks, Banelings - what do these units do? they JUST ATTACK, nothing more.
That is why the Infestor is the focus of every QQ about Zerg right now. It is the only unit that can give Zerg what the other races already have.
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the roach get healing when it is burrowed, and banelings can explode burrowed.. for me it is a abiltiy... and no other race can make so many dropships like zerg xD.
Also the corruptor has a ability called corruption! and dont forget the queen!
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I never went into the PTR but why was the missile fungal taken out of the patch back then?
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On September 06 2011 18:46 ProxySilmaril wrote:
the roach get healing when it is burrowed, and banelings can explode burrowed.. for me it is a abiltiy... and no other race can make so many dropships like zerg xD.
Also the corruptor has a ability called corruption! and dont forget the queen!
And you want to say that's comparable to Marine/Marauder stim, Siege mode, Thor cannon, Medivac heal, Ghost spells, Raven spells, Banshee cloak, Viking land, Battle cruiser yamato Reaper wallclimb... okay Hellion has no abilities.
On September 06 2011 18:48 IMSmooth wrote:
I never went into the PTR but why was the missile fungal taken out of the patch back then?
It was difficult to hit I guess, though I'd prefer it to be a missile but stronger
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Infestor = bad design choices , no micro against his powers and it's frustrating play against it.
And btw... Fungal ? what a ridicolous name... Dark swarm and plague was much better considering it's an alien unit.
SC2 was really designed by immature minds.
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EPT
