EPTThe Infestor: An Honest Discussion - Page 19
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Adventurekid
Sweden505 Posts
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:02 thisisSSK wrote: The thing I don't like about infestors is that they are a good counter to EVERYTHING. what are they bad against, really? ghosts/templar? infestors can still fungal groups of them or even mind control and then emp/feedback/storm the other ghosts/templars. I think in one of the MLG games some one basically rushed to infestors on two base on taldarim and pwned the other player (protoss), who was also on two base, with mass lings (mineral dump) and infestors (gas dump). Coca against Huk. But i feel the same, you can never have enough infestors. Theres no reason not to have 15 infestors, they are good against anything. They are good against balls, against harass, against air, they themselves can harass, they can snipe expansions on their own. You won't get a better army if you have 15 Hts or 5 with Mana. But you're army will be infinitely better with 15 Infestors than 5. | ||
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Aiurr
Poland80 Posts
So I think It's just all about the flavour of the season. For example: Hellions wasn't popular until blizzard buffed their icon to blue (seriously). And suddenly people realised it was a good unit. Immedietly after BF hellions became popular they get nerfed to being useless. Now nobody will spend 150/150 for a useless upgrade that does nothing. You won't even kill workers in 2-shots so why would you upgrade it anyway. I think if blizzard wants to make all fun terran units useless they should just remove them. I'd trade reapers and hellions for vultures with spider-mines any time. | ||
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wishbones
Canada2600 Posts
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Ninety-Three
United States68 Posts
On August 29 2011 01:07 Aiurr wrote: Hellions wasn't popular until blizzard buffed their icon to blue (seriously). And suddenly people realised it was a good unit. Immedietly after BF hellions became popular they get nerfed to being useless. Now nobody will spend 150/150 for a useless upgrade that does nothing. You won't even kill workers in 2-shots so why would you upgrade it anyway. Separate thing altogether, but it was just a coincidence that the icon was changed near the same time the shift in the metagame happened. I know that Nada and other top Korean Terrans had been well into a shift into mech in TvT before that, and as far as I understand, that's where hellion use started to get more popular in all matchups shortly afterward from. | ||
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Rasun
United States787 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:02 thisisSSK wrote: The thing I don't like about infestors is that they are a good counter to EVERYTHING. what are they bad against, really? ghosts/templar? infestors can still fungal groups of them or even mind control and then emp/feedback/storm the other ghosts/templars. I think in one of the MLG games some one basically rushed to infestors on two base on taldarim and pwned the other player (protoss), who was also on two base, with mass lings (mineral dump) and infestors (gas dump). I don't understand your point. Basically you said, "I saw a game where a zerg used infestors and totally killed the protoss, obviously infestors are OP." What? You gave so little context or detail, I have no idea what you think is wrong with infestors. | ||
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
Worker harass? Fungal growth + infested terrans Lots of units balled up? Fungal growth High tier units that threaten to kill everything you have? Neural parasite Units to counter infestors? Fungal growth or neural parasite and use them to counter themselves. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On August 29 2011 03:09 Blyadischa wrote: Units to counter infestors? Fungal growth or neural parasite and use them to counter themselves. Please, feedback and emp both have a higher range then fungal, and if you let one of your ghost/templars get NP long enough for the zerg to use it against you, you deserve what happens next. | ||
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Chargelot
2275 Posts
On August 29 2011 03:35 NeonFox wrote: Please, feedback and emp both have a higher range then fungal, and if you let one of your ghost/templars get NP long enough for the zerg to use it against you, you deserve what happens next. Not to mention feedback can actually be map-clicked, essentially bringing it down to an auto-cast. | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On August 29 2011 03:35 NeonFox wrote: Please, feedback and emp both have a higher range then fungal, and if you let one of your ghost/templars get NP long enough for the zerg to use it against you, you deserve what happens next. Feedback has 9, as Fungal. But Fungal has AOE, so effectively higher. On August 29 2011 03:36 Chargelot wrote: Not to mention feedback can actually be map-clicked, essentially bringing it down to an auto-cast. It's not reliable, because you have to hit pixel perfect. Clicking on the model is easier. | ||
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Coopa826
Germany161 Posts
The problem with infestors is that they are the answer to everything. Worker harass? Fungal growth + infested terrans Lots of units balled up? Fungal growth High tier units that threaten to kill everything you have? Neural parasite Units to counter infestors? Fungal growth or neural parasite and use them to counter themselves WTF is this? terrans whining about zerg units being op? wtf so hows ZvT working in late game brofester is zergs maingoal cause its most powerful army zerg can have EFFING GHOSTS COUNTERS BOTH THOSE UNITS snipe is fucking op cause all high tear units of zergs are armoured (ultra infestor broodlord) and snipe simply ignores armour so why dont you use that against t3 and infestor? Emp is even better than feedback cause its aoe and it makes ALL INFESTORS USELESS especially cause infestors clump up no matter who hard you try Ghosts are invisible so you can sneak in and eliminate all infestors before engaging .. why is nobody complaining about this? HERP DERP infestor kill all my marines herp derp of course they do cause they are meant to do so now that terrans figured out that banelings are countered by marine micro they cant accept a unit to exist that is good against marines so sad + Show Spoiler + Units to counter infestors? Fungal growth or neural parasite and use them to counter themselves. what about ghosts what about templar? | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On August 29 2011 03:43 Coopa826 wrote: + Show Spoiler + The problem with infestors is that they are the answer to everything. Worker harass? Fungal growth + infested terrans Lots of units balled up? Fungal growth High tier units that threaten to kill everything you have? Neural parasite Units to counter infestors? Fungal growth or neural parasite and use them to counter themselves WTF is this? terrans whining about zerg units being op? wtf so hows ZvT working in late game brofester is zergs maingoal cause its most powerful army zerg can have EFFING GHOSTS COUNTERS BOTH THOSE UNITS snipe is fucking op cause all high tear units of zergs are armoured (ultra infestor broodlord) and snipe simply ignores armour so why dont you use that against t3 and infestor? Emp is even better than feedback cause its aoe and it makes ALL INFESTORS USELESS especially cause infestors clump up no matter who hard you try Ghosts are invisible so you can sneak in and eliminate all infestors before engaging .. why is nobody complaining about this? HERP DERP infestor kill all my marines herp derp of course they do cause they are meant to do so now that terrans figured out that banelings are countered by marine micro they cant accept a unit to exist that is good against marines so sad + Show Spoiler + Units to counter infestors? Fungal growth or neural parasite and use them to counter themselves. what about ghosts what about templar? Thank you, now please get out. | ||
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Aui_2000
Canada435 Posts
On August 28 2011 16:47 NITTYOLDMAN wrote: IM JUST STATING FACTS IN DEFENSE OF THE INFESTOR: FACT #1: Fungal Growth does much less damage than storm yet costs the same amount of energy FACT#2: (Regarding the argument of Fungal Growth revealing cloaked units) EMP also does this FACT#3 Neural Parasite cannot be casted on a cloaked unit, instead fungal must be casted and then later neural parasite for a total energy drain of 175. This massive energy drain in most cases is worth the price of losing a banshee/dt etc... FACT#4 Infestors are slow and easy for many units to snipe FACT#5 Infestors have a VERY long build time BROOD WAR FACT MIND CONTROL from dark archons was effectively PERMANENT neural parasite...and yet we are still complaining about neural parasite being OP'ed Are you seriously comparing a dark archon's mind control to an infestor's neural parasite? Holy shit. That's like saying BROOD WAR FACT: marine stim doubled their damage output. omfg buff stim!1!1! No, BW and sc2 are different games, stop being an idiot. also: 1. fungal stun/reveal/doesn't need to be teched to/comes out earlier 2. Emp does not lock units in place so they can't run away after being revealed. 3. Why does this matter at all? Actually I love sending single cloaked banshees to pick off a zerg's infestors late game. Unfortunately the energy they lose doesn't mean a thing when they have 15 infestors. I only still do it because they have to use 2 fungals + IT to kill it usually, meaning that I can usually push a bit further/have my drop do more damage. 4. HT's are slower and creep bonus is pretty good 5. You can also essentially build as many as you would like at the same time On August 28 2011 19:11 Olsson wrote: How are you supposed to attack a protoss thats on 3 base on taldarim? We all know that when a protoss gets 4 base vs zerg. Zerg is fucked. On taldarim you can simcity soo well and get away with a third by just putting two cannons and three gateways at the main entrance. I think that zerg can play a game against a 4 base protoss ezpz. Banelings are pretty damn good. Infact, I know some zergs with like 90% wlr on ladder against protosses that don't even need to use infestors to win. I really do hate using destiny as an example, but I think people can tell you that he's gone for 2 base broodlord infestor and won against 3-4 base protoss players. Can you imagine the outcry from zerg players like idra if protoss could have created their deathball (while having a great harass option with infestor drops/burrowed infestors) on 2 base instead of 3? And it's not like feedbacking infestors is the only thing that protoss have to do to win a fight, while I would argue that zergs can essentially a click their army, then just focus on fungaling/neuraling units. The problem is that if protoss misses feedbacks on neural parasiting infestors, they essentially cannot do anything about it unless the infestor had 190+ energy. Also, unless protoss is specifically preparing for an infestor opening (quick obs -> templar tech) on tal darim, it's not too hard for zerg to just lob 50 infested terrans into one of the protoss bases. I will admit that Terran is a lot better at dealing with infestors though. On August 29 2011 03:36 Chargelot wrote: Not to mention feedback can actually be map-clicked, essentially bringing it down to an auto-cast. Do you even play this game? On August 29 2011 03:35 NeonFox wrote: Please, feedback and emp both have a higher range then fungal, and if you let one of your ghost/templars get NP long enough for the zerg to use it against you, you deserve what happens next. Please check your facts before you make you make claims. When I offrace zerg I get neural's off on spell casters surprisingly often. Actually iirc, if an infestor neurals a ghost and the ghost emps it at the same time the infestor will get the neural off (so if the ghost has over 150 energy then he can emp his friends). | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On August 29 2011 03:09 Blyadischa wrote: The problem with infestors is that they are the answer to everything. Worker harass? Fungal growth + infested terrans Lots of units balled up? Fungal growth High tier units that threaten to kill everything you have? Neural parasite Units to counter infestors? Fungal growth or neural parasite and use them to counter themselves. I'm pretty sure Marines are good against everything too but people grew up and stopped crying about those ages ago | ||
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Molybdenum
United States358 Posts
On August 29 2011 03:35 NeonFox wrote: Please, feedback and emp both have a higher range then fungal, and if you let one of your ghost/templars get NP long enough for the zerg to use it against you, you deserve what happens next. From Liquipedia: Fungal Growth: range 9, radius 2 Feedback: range 9, radius 0 EMP: range 10, radius 2 Fungal has a larger effective range than feedback, shorter than EMP though. The big problem I see with fungal is the chainability of it. As was seen on Saturday in MLG, Haypro vs Tyler and in a TvZ (can't remember the players, sorry), chain fungals took down a huge pack of phoenixes and vikings, completely turning the tides of the battle. Once you get your units fungal'd there is absolutely nothing realistic that can be done to save them. No other spell in the game does damage + lockdown, it's just an incredible combination. And now with double DPS, it happens so fast. And, as has been mentioned before, infestors are the answer to everything. Between fungal, infested marine, and neural, they're such a powerful unit. Burrowed movement also makes them super sneaky and tough to kill. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On August 29 2011 03:38 Elefanto wrote: Feedback has 9, as Fungal. But Fungal has AOE, so effectively higher. Sorry for the misinformation then, was sure it was longer. Anyways to further get my point out ot Blyadischa feedback insta-kills an infestor above 90 energy meanwhile you have to chain fungals to kill HTs. None of the casters are better than others they have different roles. Edit : Even as a zerg player myself I believe the infestor should stay as it is but fungal should be changed to slow down units instead of freezing them. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
On August 29 2011 03:09 Blyadischa wrote: The problem with infestors is that they are the answer to everything. Worker harass? Fungal growth + infested terrans Lots of units balled up? Fungal growth High tier units that threaten to kill everything you have? Neural parasite Units to counter infestors? Fungal growth or neural parasite and use them to counter themselves. The problem with ghosts is that they are the answer to everything. Worker harass? Nukes + snipe + auto attack. Lots of units balled up? Nuke + emp. Units to counter ghosts? Only HT's. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On August 28 2011 23:06 Elefanto wrote: Coca against Huk. But i feel the same, you can never have enough infestors. Theres no reason not to have 15 infestors, they are good against anything. They are good against balls, against harass, against air, they themselves can harass, they can snipe expansions on their own. You won't get a better army if you have 15 Hts or 5 with Mana. But you're army will be infinitely better with 15 Infestors than 5. i agree they aren't good against everything though. Banshees when cloaked have a high chance to get over the infestors and if there is no other anti air then the infestor, you will snipe atleast one infestor, and they eat tons of fungals. I generall use 4 banshees flying in from several directions poken infestors. at my level 2 banshees would probably be enough to whipe the floor with the zerg going ling infestor. Also bunkers do good work against them. Another thing is that if the zerg has to much infestors they can't protect them against single unit run ins. And sieged tanks can protect units a range of 2 cells ahead haha. So there are a few things that infestors can't do, but its really micro intensiv. But thats what casters are about. OP if they have energy and the opponent doesn't micro. But if you wear their energy down you have a good chance. oh and bad example from the person above, every non light non bio unit is untouchable by the ghost (exception the archon), thats why they can cloak and have an normal attack heh. to make them different from the other races casters, even though they are not. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On August 29 2011 03:54 Olsson wrote: The problem with ghosts is that they are the answer to everything. Worker harass? Nukes + snipe + auto attack. Lots of units balled up? Nuke + emp. Units to counter ghosts? Only HT's. Let's do a High Templar for good measure. The problem with High Templar is that they are answer to everything. Worker harass? Storm or boss archon warp at enemy expo. Lots of units balled up? Storm or archon splash damage. Units to counter High Templar? Everything that hits ground. | ||
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holynorth
United States590 Posts
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