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On August 25 2011 10:05 AidanS wrote:
Infestors are far too good.
With perfect control the only viable counter are ghosts. Everything else is out ranged by fungals 9 plus aoe.
Even neural is a massively OP spell. You should not give a 2 supply unit essentially a 1 shot kill ability unless it is really difficult to cast or effectively defendable with micro.
This is especially problematic versus protoss, a faction that has no combat unit costing less than 2 supply. The spell is supply effective even if you were using it on zealots!
NP kills units? Which game to do you play?
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On August 25 2011 10:04 Mojar wrote:Infested terrans don't win vs marines you can micro marines to avoid being by shot by all the infested terrans, you cant do the same with infested terrans. Show nested quote +It is similar to the Orbital Command's "scan" ability, in the sense that the inappropriate use of this ability is a waste of precious energy, however when used correctly, it is the difference between winning and losing. You cant compare 50 energy on a CC to 100 energy on an Infestor, one is game changing the other is definitely not except in the case of early DT's in TvP, or a cloaked banshee opening in TvT. Show nested quote +He has with him what is most probably the highest maximum potential damage output of any unit in the game. Stupid statement, every unit has an infinite maximum potential damage output if it is kept alive.
You obviously don't understand spell casters. They were built from the ground up to be the units that make the game skill-based. Potential isn't calculated by saying "over an infinite time length", because over an infinite time length, even you will learn how to understand something like logic.
In a 10 minute period, a marine won't accomplish a tenth of an Infestor in good hands.
Even if that marine is constantly attacking.
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Also as soon as zergs get a good unit protoss starts complaining about how they can't use something because of infestors. BUT WAIT ZERG CAN'T USE HYDRAS AGAINST COLOSSUS! lol it's just funny how that happens. As well terrans gotta remember as soon as you get 10 medivac's you don't die to fungal growth at all and even the zerg players start to giggle at the sight of it.
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On August 25 2011 10:07 VectorCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 10:02 akalarry wrote:On August 25 2011 10:00 VectorCereal wrote:On August 25 2011 09:55 NATO wrote:
The problem with infestors (other than simply being too good) is that there is no way for the opponent to use their skill to reduce/overcome the spells of the infestors. Bascially it's all up to if the zerg player is good enough to get the spell off - once that happens there is nothing to do.
Even storms can be dodged to some degree. You can't spread your units out? Sentries are spread against ghosts, why can't people do the same against fungals? Of course doing that wouldn't overcome any part of fungal..right? Also OP you forgot to mention that infested terrans take time to spawn rendering them much less effective than what is implied. On August 25 2011 09:52 akalarry wrote:
the only thing i dont like about infestors is how easily they can take out a base. the main problem is burrow movement. it's ridiculously hard to see them coming unless you have a random turret, cannon, or overseer far away from your base scouts it. Two words. Dark Templar lol. dt is the worst possible comparison. useless in an actual battle, only thing it can do is snipe bases/workers. infestors can do that AND be the most important unit in an actual battle. also killing 5 dts is easier than killing 35 infested terrans. the most important thing is that you get infestors anyway because it's used in an actual fight. a byproduct is that it can tear down a base at will. now if a dt could also fungal then we'd be talking I see you didn't watch MC vs Idra when MC had a DT hitting each hydra once to maximize DPS. Also killing 35 infested terrans takes 1 storm if they are clumped up. All of your argument is situational. Why don't you have cannons at your expos to stop infested terrans? What stops mutas from wrecking you then? By your logic mutalisks are equally as imbalanced because they help in army fights and can take out bases! The comparison was based on what you said. A unit that kills bases effectively. By comparing to the DT I pointed out how easy it is to stop them from killing bases.
cannons don't stop infested terran unless you have 10 cannons around each nexus
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hmmm, when you say IF lose to regular marines, is completely false, if all the eggs hatch immediatly than yes, but you forgot the spawn time, a bunch of eggs being casted around marines will die instantly in equal numbers, from the marines, also the ability to run away and micro against them makes them worthless against things like marines
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ghosts arent even that good against infestors because if their size. While being great against HT's i swear it seems like every emp i use only hits 1-2 infestors max, when they have 8 it feels pretty much like theres nothing I can do 
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On August 25 2011 10:07 VectorCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 10:02 akalarry wrote:On August 25 2011 10:00 VectorCereal wrote:On August 25 2011 09:55 NATO wrote:
The problem with infestors (other than simply being too good) is that there is no way for the opponent to use their skill to reduce/overcome the spells of the infestors. Bascially it's all up to if the zerg player is good enough to get the spell off - once that happens there is nothing to do.
Even storms can be dodged to some degree. You can't spread your units out? Sentries are spread against ghosts, why can't people do the same against fungals? Of course doing that wouldn't overcome any part of fungal..right? Also OP you forgot to mention that infested terrans take time to spawn rendering them much less effective than what is implied. On August 25 2011 09:52 akalarry wrote:
the only thing i dont like about infestors is how easily they can take out a base. the main problem is burrow movement. it's ridiculously hard to see them coming unless you have a random turret, cannon, or overseer far away from your base scouts it. Two words. Dark Templar lol. dt is the worst possible comparison. useless in an actual battle, only thing it can do is snipe bases/workers. infestors can do that AND be the most important unit in an actual battle. also killing 5 dts is easier than killing 35 infested terrans. the most important thing is that you get infestors anyway because it's used in an actual fight. a byproduct is that it can tear down a base at will. now if a dt could also fungal then we'd be talking I see you didn't watch MC vs Idra when MC had a DT hitting each hydra once to maximize DPS. Also killing 35 infested terrans takes 1 storm if they are clumped up. All of your argument is situational. Why don't you have cannons at your expos to stop infested terrans? What stops mutas from wrecking you then? By your logic mutalisks are equally as imbalanced because they help in army fights and can take out bases! The comparison was based on what you said. A unit that kills bases effectively. By comparing to the DT I pointed out how easy it is to stop them from killing bases.
cannons absolutely don't stop infested terrans from killing a nexus. also that mc vs idra game was a poor game by idra, letting his 1 overseer get sniped iirc. mutas can wreck you, but you can see them coming, which is the same reason why doing drops isn't imbalanced. with infestors, you won't see them coming until they are right outside your base, unless you have like 10 observers everywhere, i don't see how you can defend your fourth or fifth against burrowed infestors.
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On August 25 2011 10:09 Sadist wrote:ghosts arent even that good against infestors because if their size. While being great against HT's i swear it seems like every emp i use only hits 1-2 infestors max, when they have 8 it feels pretty much like theres nothing I can do
Snipe them! 
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On August 25 2011 10:08 IceSC wrote:
Also as soon as zergs get a good unit protoss starts complaining about how they can't use something because of infestors. BUT WAIT ZERG CAN'T USE HYDRAS AGAINST COLOSSUS! lol it's just funny how that happens. As well terrans gotta remember as soon as you get 10 medivac's you don't die to fungal growth at all and even the zerg players start to giggle at the sight of it.
completely agree, there are so many preventative measures terran/toss can take to combat the infestors but there are absolutely none that zergs and even terrans (i think) can do to counter protoss late game, why arent aspects of the protoss deathball nerfed?
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On August 25 2011 10:08 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 10:07 VectorCereal wrote:On August 25 2011 10:02 akalarry wrote:On August 25 2011 10:00 VectorCereal wrote:On August 25 2011 09:55 NATO wrote:
The problem with infestors (other than simply being too good) is that there is no way for the opponent to use their skill to reduce/overcome the spells of the infestors. Bascially it's all up to if the zerg player is good enough to get the spell off - once that happens there is nothing to do.
Even storms can be dodged to some degree. You can't spread your units out? Sentries are spread against ghosts, why can't people do the same against fungals? Of course doing that wouldn't overcome any part of fungal..right? Also OP you forgot to mention that infested terrans take time to spawn rendering them much less effective than what is implied. On August 25 2011 09:52 akalarry wrote:
the only thing i dont like about infestors is how easily they can take out a base. the main problem is burrow movement. it's ridiculously hard to see them coming unless you have a random turret, cannon, or overseer far away from your base scouts it. Two words. Dark Templar lol. dt is the worst possible comparison. useless in an actual battle, only thing it can do is snipe bases/workers. infestors can do that AND be the most important unit in an actual battle. also killing 5 dts is easier than killing 35 infested terrans. the most important thing is that you get infestors anyway because it's used in an actual fight. a byproduct is that it can tear down a base at will. now if a dt could also fungal then we'd be talking I see you didn't watch MC vs Idra when MC had a DT hitting each hydra once to maximize DPS. Also killing 35 infested terrans takes 1 storm if they are clumped up. All of your argument is situational. Why don't you have cannons at your expos to stop infested terrans? What stops mutas from wrecking you then? By your logic mutalisks are equally as imbalanced because they help in army fights and can take out bases! The comparison was based on what you said. A unit that kills bases effectively. By comparing to the DT I pointed out how easy it is to stop them from killing bases. cannons don't stop infested terran unless you have 10 cannons around each nexus
10 cannons is a blatant lie. Maybe if I'm sending in 6-7 infestors which is an investment worthy of taking an expansion (see marauder drops). The normal 4 infestors that are used can be stopped easily with well placed cannons, much fewer than 10 at that.
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On August 25 2011 10:09 Sadist wrote:ghosts arent even that good against infestors because if their size. While being great against HT's i swear it seems like every emp i use only hits 1-2 infestors max, when they have 8 it feels pretty much like theres nothing I can do
How many times have we gone over this man... you need to EMP an area with multiple ghosts, not just hope that 1 EMP hits all infestors. Also, cloaking a few ghosts and getting EMPs off works pretty well. We can practice it this weekend if you want.
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On August 25 2011 10:08 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 10:04 Mojar wrote:Infested terrans don't win vs marines you can micro marines to avoid being by shot by all the infested terrans, you cant do the same with infested terrans. It is similar to the Orbital Command's "scan" ability, in the sense that the inappropriate use of this ability is a waste of precious energy, however when used correctly, it is the difference between winning and losing. You cant compare 50 energy on a CC to 100 energy on an Infestor, one is game changing the other is definitely not except in the case of early DT's in TvP, or a cloaked banshee opening in TvT. He has with him what is most probably the highest maximum potential damage output of any unit in the game. Stupid statement, every unit has an infinite maximum potential damage output if it is kept alive. You obviously don't understand spell casters. They were built from the ground up to be the units that make the game skill-based. Potential isn't calculated by saying "over an infinite time length", because over an infinite time length, even you will learn how to understand something like logic. In a 10 minute period, a marine won't accomplish a tenth of an Infestor in good hands. Even if that marine is constantly attacking.
Actually that's the definition of potential. But Im not arguing that a marine is as good as an infestor obviously. I was pointing out that it was a silly way to state the amount of damage an infestor is capable of.
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On August 25 2011 10:09 Slago wrote:
hmmm, when you say IF lose to regular marines, is completely false, if all the eggs hatch immediatly than yes, but you forgot the spawn time, a bunch of eggs being casted around marines will die instantly in equal numbers, from the marines, also the ability to run away and micro against them makes them worthless against things like marines
The statement "Infested Terrans kill Marines in equal numbers" is correct. Every "counter" is completely situational. If I were to throw 30 ITs around a Terran Orbital Command, and he responded with exactly 30 Marines, those marines would die if they were targeted down.
On August 25 2011 10:12 Mojar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 10:08 Chargelot wrote:On August 25 2011 10:04 Mojar wrote:Infested terrans don't win vs marines you can micro marines to avoid being by shot by all the infested terrans, you cant do the same with infested terrans. It is similar to the Orbital Command's "scan" ability, in the sense that the inappropriate use of this ability is a waste of precious energy, however when used correctly, it is the difference between winning and losing. You cant compare 50 energy on a CC to 100 energy on an Infestor, one is game changing the other is definitely not except in the case of early DT's in TvP, or a cloaked banshee opening in TvT. He has with him what is most probably the highest maximum potential damage output of any unit in the game. Stupid statement, every unit has an infinite maximum potential damage output if it is kept alive. You obviously don't understand spell casters. They were built from the ground up to be the units that make the game skill-based. Potential isn't calculated by saying "over an infinite time length", because over an infinite time length, even you will learn how to understand something like logic. In a 10 minute period, a marine won't accomplish a tenth of an Infestor in good hands. Even if that marine is constantly attacking. Actually that's the definition of potential. But Im not arguing that a marine is as good as infestor obviously. I was pointing out that it was a silly way to state the amount of damage an infestor is capable of.
Show me the everlasting Starcraft game, and I'll admit you're correct. If the game doesn't last forever, you're wrong. This is rational potential, not imaginary potential.
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It only feels right that spell-casters have the potential to change games like they do. However, personally, I feel the investment should be higher ;P
Remove +Energy Upgrade and require Fungal to be researched, do the same for EMP, and repeat again for Feedback.
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On August 25 2011 10:11 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 10:09 Sadist wrote:ghosts arent even that good against infestors because if their size. While being great against HT's i swear it seems like every emp i use only hits 1-2 infestors max, when they have 8 it feels pretty much like theres nothing I can do How many times have we gone over this man... you need to EMP an area with multiple ghosts, not just hope that 1 EMP hits all infestors. Also, cloaking a few ghosts and getting EMPs off works pretty well. We can practice it this weekend if you want.
Cloak and snipe overseers.
SUP ZERG.
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For protoss players-
Not sure if people know this already - but phoenix's Graviton beam removes the effect of Neural parasite.
Pretty useful if you have a few phoenixes and infestors neural your collos/archons .. you can just lift the Infestors up which ends the neural parasite. Quite handy in situations.
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On August 25 2011 10:11 VectorCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 10:08 ReignFayth wrote:On August 25 2011 10:07 VectorCereal wrote:On August 25 2011 10:02 akalarry wrote:On August 25 2011 10:00 VectorCereal wrote:On August 25 2011 09:55 NATO wrote:
The problem with infestors (other than simply being too good) is that there is no way for the opponent to use their skill to reduce/overcome the spells of the infestors. Bascially it's all up to if the zerg player is good enough to get the spell off - once that happens there is nothing to do.
Even storms can be dodged to some degree. You can't spread your units out? Sentries are spread against ghosts, why can't people do the same against fungals? Of course doing that wouldn't overcome any part of fungal..right? Also OP you forgot to mention that infested terrans take time to spawn rendering them much less effective than what is implied. On August 25 2011 09:52 akalarry wrote:
the only thing i dont like about infestors is how easily they can take out a base. the main problem is burrow movement. it's ridiculously hard to see them coming unless you have a random turret, cannon, or overseer far away from your base scouts it. Two words. Dark Templar lol. dt is the worst possible comparison. useless in an actual battle, only thing it can do is snipe bases/workers. infestors can do that AND be the most important unit in an actual battle. also killing 5 dts is easier than killing 35 infested terrans. the most important thing is that you get infestors anyway because it's used in an actual fight. a byproduct is that it can tear down a base at will. now if a dt could also fungal then we'd be talking I see you didn't watch MC vs Idra when MC had a DT hitting each hydra once to maximize DPS. Also killing 35 infested terrans takes 1 storm if they are clumped up. All of your argument is situational. Why don't you have cannons at your expos to stop infested terrans? What stops mutas from wrecking you then? By your logic mutalisks are equally as imbalanced because they help in army fights and can take out bases! The comparison was based on what you said. A unit that kills bases effectively. By comparing to the DT I pointed out how easy it is to stop them from killing bases. cannons don't stop infested terran unless you have 10 cannons around each nexus 10 cannons is a blatant lie. Maybe if I'm sending in 6-7 infestors which is an investment worthy of taking an expansion (see marauder drops). The normal 4 infestors that are used can be stopped easily with well placed cannons, much fewer than 10 at that. clearly u havent played pvz against abusers
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Fungal growth prevents units from being loaded into a dropship of any type.
Edit: This is badly worded  . I thought it meant dropships don't work once fungaled.
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Infestors have too much utility for too little of an investment. Infested terrans are essentially free expansion deniers. Neural parasite in combination with fungal growth means that Protoss has no reason or incentive to build colossi, carriers, or a mothership, as these will all be taken and used against them. Fungal growth itself does guaranteed damage (storm is easily dodged in comparison) and prevents ANY micro at all of the units under its effect. That alone should be addressed.
People tell Protoss players that they need to get templar tech - but we can't support templar realistically on two bases - we need a third (which, oh yeah, keeps getting denied because that's what zergs do). Feedback might stop a few infestors, but in reality you catch maybe an infestor or two, but because the range on feedback is terrible, it ends up not behaving as the counter it should be.
I just find it absurd that people will stand by a unit that removes strategy from a real time strategy game. I'd like to see it removed from the game, and give Zerg units a better late game composition instead to compensate.
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On August 25 2011 09:58 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 09:56 cHaNg-sTa wrote:On August 25 2011 09:07 Whitewing wrote:
Infested terran is probably too strong a spell as is, if you sneak a couple infestors into a base an spam them while forces are out of position, you'll take down command centers. Dealing with them without AoE is pretty much impossible for protoss, and thrown into big engagements they can do absurd amounts of damage while soaking hits.
I have no issue with fungal growth or neural parasite though. ... That's like saying DT's sneaking into zerg's base and killing a hatchery = too strong if DTs could cast storm I'd def think it's too strong
DT's can also morph into a pretty good unit called an Archon.. just saying.
Or you can drop 2 DT's and 2 HT's and it will function similarly to 4 infestors.
And yes, I know they don't function completely the same given different scenarios. Just making the point that not all units are the same. Can Infestors be permanently cloaked and go around 1-shotting workers? No. Imagine an Infestor that can fungal+attack/1shot workers while burowed and a DT that can cloak/1shot workers + have the ability to storm everything. Both would be "OP".
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EPT
