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Sc2 finally gets big mention in newspaper
Sc2 barcraft becomes a big hit all over and is attracting tons of people who never knew about the game
Even people ( like myself ) simply discover the game from the internet and become attracted to it that way whether it's through stumbling upon it on reddit or ( the more unsavery option ) of 4chan /v/
And even I have convinced quite a few people to watch and play simply by talking to people and now have some practice partners in platinum who I got to play
You are completely ignoring the true growth that actually is happening. The casual game is declining. Fewer casual gamers are playing, people who play single player...try a few ladder games and then uninstall. They're declining because they got out of the game what they wanted and now they're done with it. But the e-sports community IS growing and seeing as the game is still relatively new and still has plenty of updates/expansions/etc. on the way, it will still grow.
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On August 24 2011 19:13 zatic wrote:
You are way oversimplifying things. Reading your post it seems you think that the entire userbase comes from Youtube?
Now I am not new to SC2, but when I am new to something, I google it. Which, in the case of Starcraft, will bring me straight to TL. And most people coming to TL do exactly that. People coming here from Youtube (literally) are a very small percentage of our users.
If you want to look at SC2 growth, forget about Youtube. Just look at SC2 sales figures. That is pretty much the most reliable indicator for growth you can get.
I just googled "starcraft 2" and TL didnt even show up until the 4th link on the second page for me 
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On August 24 2011 15:50 Danglars wrote:
Honestly, I don't see a way to confirm this graph's legitimacy as faithfully laying out the route that the majority of new players become acquainted with SC2. I haven't seen any published studies on new players to the game giving their reason for joining the game, to start. Nothing like,
* Saw in Store
* Heard from friends that play
* Saw youtube videos
* Dissatisfied with previous RTS
* Saw a tournament / tournament's news article
* Enjoy other Blizzard titles
The de-facto argument is that the biggest contributor to growth of the scene is viewers stumbling upon the youtube videos of your low-tier and getting the game based on liking what they see. Not even an obvious conclusion of anything. I'd argue your first tier of the pyramid and content that grabs new viewers and starts their upward climb is unsupported and pointless.
Furthermore, no discussion to the hype that will generate from Blizzcon and the general hype about the upcoming expansion. Compare that to an unrelated game that never releases a sequel that can have a prize viewing spot /advertising spot in an electronics/video game store to catch my meaning. There are other forces at play generating an influx of new players that hasn't been discussed by OP.
I will briefly touch on some things I disagree with in the upper sections of the pyramid. Team Liquid is placed too high on the accessibility-o-meter to new players. It comes up first page of google on search terms "Starcraft 2" and even third result first page of "Starcraft 2 Strategy" (behind some easily dismissed results selling guides). Google searches (after purchase of game) of units FREQUENTLY come up first with the LiquiPedia article (shoutout to Aesop, GHOSTCLAW while I'm reminded of my love for LiquiPedia). First view here you see live user streams (sure to catch the eye, it did mine) as well as excellent tournament wrapups and posts by the knowledgeable staff front and center. The upward draft of resources for improvement of the game is put too much in the background. Not like tons watch husky and only a few progress to day9 and teamliquid but that there are large percentages going straight from game purchase to teamliquid discussion as well as other avenues. Too much of a gloomy outlook with little reason to believe it.
I think Danglars sets the record staright here, the growth of SC2 is far more complex than a simple up and down pyramid. I don't even understand how the pyramid is meant to reflect growth? Will SC2 grow more if more people subscribe to
The key factor is understanding growth of SC2 is major tourneys - MLG, NASL, Dreamhack etc - MLG particularly exposes other gamers from other games to SC2.
DivinitySC2, I assume you do have some data somewhere but your interpretation of it is highly speculative and very linear. Not particularly convincing.
Also.... HAPPY BIRTHDAY ZATIC.
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On August 24 2011 18:03 Hammer442 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 17:50 Toadvine wrote:On August 24 2011 17:42 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Your little pyramid assumes a lot and has not anything resembling proof to back it up. I could sit here and give you numbers all day showing growth, just because HDH are not gaining subs does not mean SC is stagnating, or actually anything for that matter. Could you? I mean, throw some numbers around. Because. to be honest, SC2 stream viewership numbers on major events have never been particularly impressive to me. IPL Grand Finals get like 30k, IEM Cologne maybe 50k, DreamHack Summer hovered around 70k for most of the tournament. That's really not much, especially if you compare it to the MOBA games, with LoL doubling SC2's numbers at Dreamhack, and the ridiculous amount of viewers for the DotA2 opening tournament. Dreamhack peaked over 90k when MC was playing IdrA and around the same for the finals, MLG numbers have been going nowhere but up, over 100k at anaheim on the stream. The major events are getting the numbers, some events are not being publcized as well as they could be. IEM numbers kind of surprised me because there were some good games.. people just did not know about it. LoL numbers were great but it is an entirely different game and we should not really be judging sc2 growth and success off the back of another game. I am pretty sure LoL were getting extra viewers by Riot adding the stream to the launcher aswell something that sc2 could gain from. The more Blizzard support sc2 and E-sports the more it will grow.
My point is, those numbers aren't really amazing in their own right. At least I don't think they testify to the popularity of the game that would justify, say, a six figure salary for HuK. I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing, I'm just curious how people "in the know" like Diamond or the EG management (Scoots saying that HuK's salary has a huge ROI) quantify the growth of the scene.
And yeah, saying that LoL gets more viewers because Riot makes more of an effort to market it as an e-sport doesn't actually help at all. In the end, if Valve and Riot care about this more, and make serious design decisions based on this fact, then LoL and Dota2 have a better chance of succeeding as e-sports. As opposed to Blizzard, who seemingly don't give a flying fuck. SC2 seemingly has an advantage over LoL in that it's easier to balance and more competitive, but I really don't think it's going to have that advantage over DotA2. Especially with how the game is seemingly reverting back to 1 or 2 basing forever in some matchups.
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This is a terrible illustration.
Doesn't account for so many things, word of mouth, gaming sites not related to SC2 exclusively, cross promotion(ie: people find out about TL from watching MLG), people seeing and SC2 box sitting on the Walmart shelf, the fact that WoW is the largest game in the world and people might look at other Blizzard games, I could go on and on.
The world does not start with youtube. yeah it is a big site, but damn your whole premise is based off the fact that you believe people find SC2 esports from youtube videos more than any other source.
Horrible, baseless, unfounded arguments. Be ashamed.
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I'll agree with the OP that the growth of the Starcraft community is nearing its peak until HOTS, but that doesn't mean that it's in any danger.
We'll see a period of consolidation, and the tournaments and projects that remain will be the strong ones. Somehow I doubt NASL will be among them.
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Are guys like Husky and HD still as relevant as people think they are? I don't subscribe to any youtube channels but are they still growing/gaining more and more viewers or are people just taking it as fact that they are the most popular.
To be honest i haven't heard anything about them in so long, except when they get invited to cast things, which for Husky seems rare (but not unwelcome) and I know HD is at ign now, I don't know how is youtube thing is progressing
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Ummmm, sorry but what is your proof of your statement?
Like, for the thread title that affirms something you kinda provide no real evidence to that claim. Sorry if I missed it or something
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I think your entire hypothesis is wrong. People don't get into esports because they saw a youtube video or googled a random link. They get into esports because they like video games.
Compare: how many grandmothers are watching the GSL vs how many college students.
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On August 24 2011 22:22 Gheed wrote:
I think your entire hypothesis is wrong. People don't get into esports because they saw a youtube video or googled a random link. They get into esports because they like video games.
Compare: how many grandmothers are watching the GSL vs how many college students.
I think this shows the basic flaw of the shown pyramid.
No one is going to wake up and think "Oh I will go to youtube/google and look up SC2".
There's a step prior to that. Something must've happened so that people are actually interested in searching for SC2.
And this thing can be one of a lot of different things. A friend, an article on a gaming related site/magazine (i.e. a review), or someone like Totalbiscuit. I actually think he's way better for new blood in the scene than people like Husky & HD. Their content is exclusivly about SC2 - TB's content is different. Therefore he has fans who haven't made contact with SC2. They're like "Oh I like TB - let me look at this new video he made. Wonder what this SC2 thing is".
I doubt there are many people who're like "I love Husky, but I dont know anything about SC2 - so let me watch one of his SC2 vids and find out what SC2 is".
And based upon what the entry point for the new players is they "jump" to different levels of the pyramid. If TB mentions Teamliquid & GSL they will jump right to the top.
If I recommend Husky & HD to my friend, they'll start watching that. If I recommend Day9, TL & GSL they will watch that - completely circumventing the lower levels.
Therefore I completely disagree with the "we need more youtubers"-notion. Imho we need more people to tell their friends/family how awesome SC2 is. And guide those new guys to whatever we think is interesting for them. Eventually they will find out about the other stuff and then can decide for themselves what's most interesting for them.
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I would look at it from a business point of view. When a business starts up and running, it's initial stages involve a rapid growth until at some point that growth disappears and the revenue of the business stays constant for a while and either growth or decay occurs depending on the circumstances. The revenue in this case would be the fans of sc2 and the so called rotting is either the constant amount of fans sticking to sc2 or the decay. And if its the decay, well thats probably thanks to LoL and Dota 2.
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I just cant understand why everyone wants this to be so big so fast. Let it mature and prosper in its own, there is only so much we can do as a community. Most gaming events are struggling to fit people in as it is. Just let it catch on, it will do fine
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I'll throw in my 2 cents:
I was no complete stranger to pro-gaming in BW, I knew some of the older players like SlayerS_BoxeR and YellOw; in fact I modeled my Terran play after BoxeR to crush my scrub friends at BW (I was also a scrub, mind you.. I didn't play competitvely). I knew that there were proleagues in Korea but I never watched any.. The closest I got was reading the "Pimpest Plays" features on SCLegacy.
Anyhow, fast forward to SC2 beta, and I was without a beta key. Like many others, I turned to YouTube to see SC2 videos. I immediately came upon HDStarcraft, from his namesake alone coming up in searches for HD SC2 content. I quickly learned of Husky, and then I finally got my beta key. I watched the HDH, and that was essentially my introduction to SC2 progaming. I remembered this site, and came to it and discovered the Day[9] Daily and his King of the Beta tournament, which I also followed. Once I started watching Dailies, I basically stopped watching HD/Husky altogether.
A couple months later, the GSL debuts. I watched some a fair bit of Open Seasons 1 and 2, and finally once Open Season 3 started I decided to lay down the cash for GSL and I have been watching GSL almost exclusively for the past few months (I watch the MLG's now, though).
So.. I played StarCraft and Brood War since 2002, and that's my story.. But I've also shown BW and SC2 to friends, as well. My roommate watches GSL/MLG with me all the time when I'm at school, and even started playing SC2 because of me. He used to watch a few Husky videos, even sat in on a couple Dailies, but mostly he ladders on his Bronze account and watches GSL.
My other friend who I got in touch with again this summer never played BW or SC2 to any real degree. He bought SC2 a while after it came out, but he never plays competitively. However, once I showed him MLG and GSL he's absolutely hooked. For a long time he had no idea what units did what, what strategies were appropriate when, but he went headfirst into GSL and now he pays for season tickets despite him never having even done his placement matches on ladder. We're both hitting up Barcraft Toronto this weekend too!
So, I would say that this pyramid presented isn't exactly accurate... I'd argue that word of mouth from those in the community already is the largest part of growing the community. 1+ year after release, anyone that was going to buy SC2 of their own volition has already done so. However, with 2 expansions on the horizon, I'd say there is also a fair market who had heard of SC2 but didn't buy it - they could be roped in with a good marketing campaign from Blizzard for Heart of the Swarm and Legacy of the Void.
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HD and Husky aren't exactly promoting themselves either with respect to their youtube channel so naturally people aren't gonna go visit the website. When I go to an MLG and there are empty chairs I'll think the game is rotting.
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I don't believe that most new people come in through watching Husky etc. I think most new people start watching Starcraft after a friend has recommended it too them or after watching it at a friends house. I have lots of friends who watch pro live Starcraft 2 matches from MLG, GSL, Dreamhack etc who have never played the game and who don't know who Husky or any other youtuber is. They started directly at the top of your pyramid. I think the largest source of new players are the friends of people like us. Word of mouth is the way to go.
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It's because Husky and HD have stopped making as many videos as they used to. In the past HD and Husky churned out casts like they were insane but now Husky is involved in projects and does casts at big LAN events while HD is working at IGN and so doesn't take the time to make youtube videos.
It's pretty simple really
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Goodness grief people jumped on the OP a little harder then they needed to.
I think this pyramid is actually a very helpful and thought provoking illustration. It is not necessarily an objective scientific truth but it visualizes a very interesting concept.
TL members tend to forget how daunting it can be to jump down the rabbit hole into really following the SC2 scene. Personally, I started like alot of other people, a youtube search turned up some HD Starcraft vids. A couple of months later I am ass deep in the community.
But it takes time, because the idea of following SC2 as a professional sport requires a bit more easing into for some parts of the general population then the average TL poster might think. And it doesn't mean they are any less valuable to have as part of the community, or have less potential for being high end contributors, it is just harder to reach them.
What the OP is getting at is that casting a wider net, and reducing the amount of friction or obstacles to getting into the scene can only help. Nowadays I am as hardcore and committed as any other TL member, does it matter that I got here from a youtube search instead of following BW for the past 12 years?
I think it is an important point. It is chic to hate on high energy / low content casters like HD / Husky, but they are way more important to sustainable community growth then you think. The OP is about finding novel ways to broaden their fan base and bring more newbies into contact with SC2.
TLDR: The illustration is directionally informative, and describes my SC2 experience. I agree with the premise that introducing more people to the "bottom tier", the most accessible of sc2 content, is a key concept to growing the community.
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Growth for SC2 will follow the WoW scheme for a while. Each game/expansion will come out and you'll have a large influx of players. Then, after the game/expansion has been out for a while, the population will stagnate/start to slowly decline. Then, another expansion will come out.
However, because this is an e-sport (and not an MMO), one of two things will happen once LotV comes out.
1) The game is actually well balanced. Blizzard has added enough units to make all races viable in all situations, as well as making all races interesting and varied. This will mean that once the influx of players from LotV start leaving (the casuals), SC2 will be able to stand on its own as a good e-sport. It will then continue to thrive at tournaments and whatnot and, from Youtube, Facebook, tournaments, 3rd party websites, word of mouth, and more, we'll continue to get more people into the scene based on the fact that SC2 can stand as a worthy e-sport.
2) The game isn't well balanced. Not just in terms of the races being equal, but the gameplay being balanced and fun. If the game isn't well balanced, this could mean that there is one dominant race, or one underpowered race, or one stagnant/boring race, or certain matchups (or all of them) are really focused on 1 or 2 basing because those builds are just so powerful, or gameplay mechanics end up being just too dull to excite. If this is the case, then, after LotV, the SC2 scene will lose the casuals, and then it will slowly lose e-sports enthusiasts because it isn't balanced/entertaining/whatever the problem is, and it will slowly die out.
In the end, the only thing that will truly keep SC2 going is if it's worthy of being a good e-sport. That means balanced races that all have a variety of options and gameplay mechanics that cause tension/excitement while spectating. Only time will tell. With two more expansions, SC2 still has quite a long life to go no matter what.
That said, I would never expect SC2 to become mainstream, mostly because it's not a sport (and should never be thought of as such). I also do think it'll overtake MOBA's in pure viewership count. I expect DotA2 to destroy some records once that comes out, mostly because it's constantly action packed, simpler to follow, and much simpler to get into and play. But this isn't a bad thing. SC2 has a great scene. The only thing we could hope for is for foreign game quality to increase and match Korean game quality.
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I actually discovered Day[9] right after Husky/HD/PsyStarcraft. The guy's on YouTube, he's easily accessible for people who are watching your "Tier 1 tubers".
Just because Day[9] has a lot of intelligent things to say about the game doesn't mean he belongs at the top of the tier, if I'm understanding your chart correctly. He's a teacher as much as a theorycrafter, and therefore is as much a part of the entry-level Starcraft 2 players as the top (indeed, he's probably much more important at the bottom than the top).
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I'm pretty sure the crowds are getting bigger, stream numbers are getting higher, and this trend hasn't shown any signs of real stagnation. Seems like steady growth to me
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EPT
