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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
I've seen: 1) Marines 2)Cloak 3) Banshees 4) PDD 5) Tanks 6) BO Loss(Some have argued that the fact that Terran can 1-1-1 all in or Stim timing is the game breaker as each requires a different response and toss cannot scout in time.) Well what is it? | ||
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RajaF
Canada530 Posts
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Choboo
Sweden2088 Posts
On August 24 2011 00:17 GinDo wrote: This thread is giving me a headache. So many people with diffrent opinions, and yet theirs no clear answer what is it about the 1-1-1 that makes it to strong. I've seen: 1) Marines 2)Cloak 3) Banshees 4) PDD 5) Tanks 6) BO Loss(Some have argued that the fact that Terran can 1-1-1 all in or Stim timing is the game breaker as each requires a different response and toss cannot scout in time.) Well what is it? The real imbalanced part is that marines (the main dps unit) cost only minerals and that they can throw away half of their SCVs and still afford to build just as many marines for a new push with MULEs. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
So in the end you're just left with no way of dealing with the marines. As MC said - if we had banelings those marines would be nothing. | ||
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Choboo
Sweden2088 Posts
On August 24 2011 00:21 RajaF wrote: This thread is eerily similar to threads that popped up a few months ago about how colossus are overpowered. No nerf came and lo and behold, who will say that colossus is OP now? Idra | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On August 24 2011 00:17 GinDo wrote: This thread is giving me a headache. So many people with diffrent opinions, and yet theirs no clear answer what is it about the 1-1-1 that makes it to strong. I've seen: 1) Marines 2)Cloak 3) Banshees 4) PDD 5) Tanks 6) BO Loss(Some have argued that the fact that Terran can 1-1-1 all in or Stim timing is the game breaker as each requires a different response and toss cannot scout in time.) Well what is it? All of those. The thing about it is, if you use the optimal build to stop this, it is extremely difficult to do so already, in this case the build is OP already. However, to use this optimal build you must blindly 15 nexus or 1gate expo. The terran can simply scout that and go for a 2rax or something like that, and this will destroy you too. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
The main answer for Puma vs MC game is marines. Without some kind of AoE damage the only way toss can deal with marine DPS is through zealot tank + guardian shield, but the combined effect of tank + banshee sniping the sentry and stalkers, with PDD making the stalkers useless forces toss to rely on zealots vs 30-ish marines and banshees, which is a hard fight no matter what. What makes this build strong is also the unit composition - banshee + tank forces stalker + immo, which both are sort of negated by marines + PDD, the main force in this build Does that sum the build up? Toss no early AoE + GS is negated + stalkers cannot snipe banshee = sad protoss Basically this goes back to the whole marine dps is insane in a ball and how toss can counter it at 10 minutes with no GS available | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On August 23 2011 23:54 IVN wrote: Actually I enjoy watching pro matches far more than playing on ladder. And since watching protoss gosus get owned by an a-move build is no fun at all, it is my concern. Calling this all-in an a+move victory is just a slap in the face. | ||
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
 ? | ||
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somadbro
69 Posts
There are only two builds that give you the time to react properly to a 1-1-1. One is Phoenixes and the other is 1-gate Robo. any other build basically puts you in a coin-flip where the protoss almost always loses because even having obtained the information, it's useless, and this especially is true of any FE. Some people think the FE is the best response, but it's really not. the best builds are fast expands or 1gate robo and phoenixes, but none are truly a 'hard-counter' to the 1-1-1. What I think protoss players are actually complaining about right now, at the heart of the debate, is that there is no build yet discovered that will not, at best, put you into some near-coinflip situation when faced with 1-1-1. fast phoenix and fast obs (1gate-star/robo respectively) are the two builds that allow you to beat the 1-1-1 all-in more reliably than the fast nexus, but the reactions are much more specific. You have to scout what type of 1-1-1 is coming and specifically counter that build. on close positions and smaller maps even those builds can still lose because of how early the push hits your base. the problem as many protoss see it is also that the terran, once sieged, can hold a complete positional advantage so long as they maintain sight of the high ground. what protoss players need to experiment more with is engaging with staggered zealots or, even better, probes to take tank splash without any other units taking damage, using warp prism drops to counter and harass while terran is pushing and containing, working in phoenixes in appropriate numbers to lift tanks, kill terran air units, and harass terran's base, getting voids, using prisms to drop on tanks (which is currently basically impossible, but I think that actually could mean that warp-prism buff to make this possible would be a potential change that wouldn't also necessarily be game-breaking also, which most other suggestions almost certainly are). I think taking an expansion that is far from terran base and defending with only a few cannons could also be a possibility, but at the higher levels really isn't as viable. I think the two biggest ways to help fight this push are currently available. one of the biggest and most important things is that protoss must know when the push leaves the terran base, and the protoss must engage mid-field and force at least one or two sieges before it reaches the toss front door. the other aspect is positioning before engaging. Similar to a terran gasless expand, the protoss needs to use a flanking force to draw tank fire and and damage, and another force to have a main engage, and maybe even another flanking force to really make maximum splash damage ineffective. unfortunately, this requires a lot of multitask and experience, and is really only a viable possibility for very high level players. people on ladder will still get crushed if that's what is necessary. the problem is that one banshee can kill infinite zealots, and missile turrets are very good at holding off small numbers of phoenixes. also, if the protoss too heavily over-commits to counter-harass they won't have enough to hold off the 1-1-1 push. a change is not necessarily warranted, at least not yet. Not all possible reactions have been explored, and this definitely seems to be a case of "the same strategy can't be beaten when adapted to in minor ways, so please nerf that strat." This is something we need to avoid in SC2 because of how much these changes can have huge effects on gameplay. and, especially when not enough exploration has been done, it's important to not make drastic changes. also, any change could be potentially game-breaking because of the effects across all match-ups if made on the terran end: significantly changing how 1-1-1 functions could make it useless thus cornering terrans into early expand or early pressure with little middleground. significantly changing terran marine output could mean that early expands become impossible to hold because the terran can't produce enough units to hold that expansion. if terrans can't produce a large amount of marines off 1 base, they become much more vulnerable to strong pressure or hard contains in almost all match-ups, except perhaps TvT. 1-1-1 currently can be used for all-ins, pressure builds, expands, timing attacks, etc. If that is changed too much, a huge part of terran gameplay will literally be removed, thus narrowing the build choices and lowering the skillcap significantly. thus, if there is a real problem and actual imbalance exists, something probably needs to be done on the protoss side, or it will have to be fixed in HotS. the biggest current change that would make this build no longer viable and also preserve current game balance (at least at a high level)? it's actually a change to the maps: no close spawns, and longer distances between mains, both by air and ground. this would make some ladder matchups very imbalanced (tvz for example) and win rates would be drastically different than what they are currently, but the 1-1-1 all-in certainly wouldn't be as viable. In the most recent high level matchup that featured this game MC lost to Puma on Xel'Naga caverns. MC had a huge lead after holding the initial push, but he didn't scout enough once stopping the push, he didn't respond correctly (going for a late charge), and he didn't scout the SCV pull. His biggest mistake came once the push hit: he didn't pull his probes and he engaged into the tank line. At this point, he's up by an expansion. The terran has pulled all scvs. There is no way that MC can lose even if he loses almost all of his probes so long as he has an observer and enough units to counter once he kills the push. He engages into the tank line which means his poorly spread units got crushed. Guardian shield is a liability in this situation if it requires unit clumping which then makes the tanks much more effective. Also, as any terran will tell you, engaging into a tank line is terribad - you need something to soak tank fire while you hit with a flank. probes and/or zealots work best for this, and actually even without charge. | ||
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Choboo
Sweden2088 Posts
On August 24 2011 00:31 TimeSpiral wrote: Calling this all-in an a+move victory is just a slap in the face. Zerg players say the same thing about blink stalker builds ROFL | ||
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RajaF
Canada530 Posts
That made me lol a bit  | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 24 2011 00:34 ToastieNL wrote: Tanks sorta rape Banelings too ?Baneling/immortal man! Imagine the possibilities. Seriously though, often you'll snipe down the tanks and the banshees/raven and whatnot, but the sheer force of the marines overwhelms you. Some aoe to finish them off is really needed, though sadly only HotS can address that. It's like how Zerg will stream in and try to take out all the marines so their mutas can kill the tanks. Protoss runs in and tries to snipe the tanks/banshees and uh, then they die. Because they don't have anything to take out the marines. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On August 24 2011 00:35 Choboo wrote: Zerg players say the same thing about blink stalker builds ROFL Yeah, of course. It's a pure unit build (probably the only pure unit build in the game) that is ridiculous hard to defeat as Zerg. But, it's not an a+move win. It's an a+move, then b+click your injured Stalkers so you roll the Zerg and take no losses, lol. It sucks for all races to lose to big a+move armies. Everyone has them. Everyone loses to them at some point. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
Actually, he acknowledged on his stream last night that stalker colossus no longer destroyed everything and that NP was good against Colossus. Amazing I know! | ||
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LuisFrost
Mexico130 Posts
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On August 24 2011 00:11 iCanada wrote: And DeMuslim is pretty good, maybe you Toss players have found something. I have experimented and I could find no build that gets storm before 10:20 or so that does NOT pre-empt 1-1-1. And any builds where I could rush the research. I found that terran could just run into me with just about anything and win until i had storm out. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On August 24 2011 00:21 RajaF wrote: This thread is eerily similar to threads that popped up a few months ago about how colossus are overpowered. No nerf came and lo and behold, who will say that colossus is OP now? And colossus was OP, when you factor in that there were many other early game threat from protoss, so the zerg couldnt play as greedy, as they do now. Dont you get the reasoning? Months ago: 4gt was strong, voids were stronger (more damage, and spores were lass mobile) ---> zergs had to play more carefully, meaning less drones, meaning you didnt have the insane eco to stomp colossi when they come out. Now: 4gt and voids are far less of a threat. Zerg can drone his heart out. When the colossus comes, zerg hast the eco to just throw money at this problem. And also the roaches got more range and the infestors got buffed to the point, where they are now the best caster in the game. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On August 24 2011 00:47 LuisFrost wrote: Zergs seem to be having a blast with this thread. The funny parts are the "And then zerg figured it out" When all that happened was like nerfs and buffs. | ||
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