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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 23:18 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:54 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:51 momonami5 wrote:
why is people crying about 1-1-1 now it's been a year and this build has not been changed in anyway. the units used in 1-1-1 have not changed at all in patches. Like many zerg players who started facing new 2 rax, or new blue flame builds, will have to adapt, most players will look to the pro's for new builds. If pro's have no new builds everyone crys nerf? wth. Protoss got nerfed is what changed. The usual responses to a greedy build like 1/1/1 got gutted. People do have a new build, it just dies if the Terran scouts you and responds correctly. What changes did protoss go through that affected their ability to hold the 1/1/1? Not saying there arent any, i just cant remember them.
People never used to try and hold it really, the thinking was "Terran is trying to tech to starport off 5 marines and a bunker? Fuck that shit I'm allining your greedy ass". And that worked, because that's seriously bloody greedy. Then they nerfed the allins to hell and back, so now Terran can get away with being ultra greedy early and make an insanely strong 1base push.
Going straight to starport off a handful of marines really shouldn't actually be possible.
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On August 23 2011 23:15 Yaotzin wrote:
Suppose - for a moment that it is in fact imba. If so, practicing more against it is nothing more than banging your head against a wall - you'll never improve against it because there's nothing to improve on, you're losing because it's just plain broken. Or you'll "improve" in the sense that they have fewer marines left when they kill you.
Professional Protoss players appear - given comments on twitters, and their games (MC v Puma G3, Genius vs Virus, Killer vs Select) - to have given up trying and they just allin or try wacky shit. Or 15 nexus and pray Terran scouts you last..If pros have given up against a build I'm certainly not wasting my time against it.
I would agree if I had not seen pros beat it before like I said. So there is no reason to give up. If you're arguing it's imba on certain maps like Crossfire and Xel Naga I can appreciate it and just wait for Blizzard to update their map pool or veto them.
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Can someone get an interview or a question in to Mr Bowder and hear what the status is on this?
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I only ever see appalling mistakes from the Terran when it's beaten. Forgetting siege mode. Not using it. Losing 3 banshees for nothing. etc. Can you give me one single replay where the push is executed even remotely well and is still held?
This isn't even getting into the fact that it's a stupid 1base allin build - it should be easy to crush, not almost impossible - if indeed it is almost and not completely.
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On August 23 2011 23:22 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:15 Yaotzin wrote:
Suppose - for a moment that it is in fact imba. If so, practicing more against it is nothing more than banging your head against a wall - you'll never improve against it because there's nothing to improve on, you're losing because it's just plain broken. Or you'll "improve" in the sense that they have fewer marines left when they kill you.
Professional Protoss players appear - given comments on twitters, and their games (MC v Puma G3, Genius vs Virus, Killer vs Select) - to have given up trying and they just allin or try wacky shit. Or 15 nexus and pray Terran scouts you last..If pros have given up against a build I'm certainly not wasting my time against it. I would agree if I had not seen pros beat it before like I said. So there is no reason to give up. If you're arguing it's imba on certain maps like Crossfire and Xel Naga I can appreciate it and just wait for Blizzard to update their map pool or veto them.
It can work on any map. Smaller ones are obviously better but it will never fail to do damage to put you in the lead.
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With the rate i have faced this the last couple of days... i can only imagine what the win/loss ratio for PvT is on ladder at diamond+ level
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On August 23 2011 22:30 Paradice wrote:
People that understand the issue but don't think it's a balance problem nevertheless seem pretty bad at suggesting any actual ingame solutions.
Well, if they were good at it and those suggestions proved to be viable solutions, then it wouldn't be much of a problem in the first place?
Not being able to find the (obvious) solution is the problem. The secondary problem is that you really can't either present or refute a suggestion in words and debates - anything written about Starcraft has very little actual value and use. Starcraft is not a game of words. It's a game that can be extremely counter-intuitive and a solution to any given problem is not something you can just work out in your mind based on your current level of understanding and what you know about the game so far (which is really not a lot for most people).
People theorycrafting solutions are just playing a blind guessing game and people refuting those suggested solutions are acting even worse.
So the bottom line is - unless someone is willing to dedicate dozens of hours to just experimenting to the tiniest detail and work out all the small timings and learning exactly how much variance there is due to imperfection of the execution (on either side) and how much of the problem can be solved by better execution, he should not be talking about this. He has nothing worthwhile to say.
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On August 23 2011 23:22 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:15 Yaotzin wrote:
Suppose - for a moment that it is in fact imba. If so, practicing more against it is nothing more than banging your head against a wall - you'll never improve against it because there's nothing to improve on, you're losing because it's just plain broken. Or you'll "improve" in the sense that they have fewer marines left when they kill you.
Professional Protoss players appear - given comments on twitters, and their games (MC v Puma G3, Genius vs Virus, Killer vs Select) - to have given up trying and they just allin or try wacky shit. Or 15 nexus and pray Terran scouts you last..If pros have given up against a build I'm certainly not wasting my time against it. I would agree if I had not seen pros beat it before like I said. So there is no reason to give up. If you're arguing it's imba on certain maps like Crossfire and Xel Naga I can appreciate it and just wait for Blizzard to update their map pool or veto them.
Pro only beats 111 when Terran mess up or mismicro, and that's the problem. It's not right when all they can do is hoping their opponents botch the build.
Anyway, people who think Protoss just qq are delusional or trolling. I'm really frustrated with foreigners "lecturing" Koreans how to beat 111 even though they are miles behind Koreans. I bet those Koreans have spent hours trying to figure this build and have not been able to. I would like to see a foreigner stopping Bomber or MVP 111 and post some vods. Even Korean Terrans and Zergs say 111 imba against Toss.
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On August 23 2011 23:25 Yaotzin wrote:
I only ever see appalling mistakes from the Terran when it's beaten. Forgetting siege mode. Not using it. Losing 3 banshees for nothing. etc. Can you give me one single replay where the push is executed even remotely well and is still held?
This isn't even getting into the fact that it's a stupid 1base allin build - it should be easy to crush, not almost impossible - if indeed it is almost and not completely.
Unfortunately I can't because as I said, I watched it on their(Puzzle and Hero) stream. Maybe if you're lucky you can catch them on stream stopping it. Or go through Hero's replay pack and see if he held it there.
3 gate void-ray all-in is quite hard to hold too, although not on the same level. Naniwa beat someone on the Battlenet invitational even after being scouted. The nature of all-in is like that unfortunately. If all-ins were easy to hold we always see macro games which, while I can appreciate, can also turn into really weird and passive game like Top versus Zenio today.
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vods should be on the esl tv website and replays on the iem website.
And warpgate research time got increased to make up for that stimpack time was increased. So yes this particular push got stronger. Though it was to easy to hold before, guess blizzard thought it would fit anyway.
Don't have problems when i don't go heavy t1 >.< which i don't like to much anyway. So can't really comment on that, especially since i am not at 400apm and so are my opponents, so actually a completly different game imo.
Bare with it it will change one way or the other ... but not after toss got bootet around for 2 weeks. If pros given up on it, which i doubt (atleast the creativ ones  ), it will look badly to blizzard and they will be forced to overbuff toss again ^^. Then terran will find a solution like they always do (strange isn't it :3 ). And at some point it will be even, and terran will be the hardest to play race ever, even harder then bw
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alright so the nicest way atm is to one base fast ranged colli, even then it wont be an easy fight
Hard way is to go expo and try to hold it with gateway/immo
tested 20 games on KR, absolute bullshit, didnt lose once
DK said hes gonna nerf it anyways, dont see what all the QQ is about
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On August 23 2011 23:35 FeyFey wrote:
vods should be on the esl tv website and replays on the iem website.
And warpgate research time got increased to make up for that stimpack time was increased. So yes this particular push got stronger. Though it was to easy to hold before, guess blizzard thought it would fit anyway.
nop, it was made for PvP.
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On August 23 2011 23:18 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:54 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:51 momonami5 wrote:
why is people crying about 1-1-1 now it's been a year and this build has not been changed in anyway. the units used in 1-1-1 have not changed at all in patches. Like many zerg players who started facing new 2 rax, or new blue flame builds, will have to adapt, most players will look to the pro's for new builds. If pro's have no new builds everyone crys nerf? wth. Protoss got nerfed is what changed. The usual responses to a greedy build like 1/1/1 got gutted. People do have a new build, it just dies if the Terran scouts you and responds correctly. What changes did protoss go through that affected their ability to hold the 1/1/1? Not saying there arent any, i just cant remember them.
Certainly they're not talking about the Flux Veins ... That would be outrageous. They are certainly not talking about the KA nerf, because that would also be silly. They are probably just talking about the classic 4gate all-in (warpgate timing).
From a Terran's perspective:
(1) Tech builds are super greedy and are almost always countered by early aggression from the Toss. In this particular build, the Terran typically rushes for a reactor.
(2) The Terran has to wall otherwise early Zealot Stalker Probe pressure can do massive damage.
(3) The wall becomes a very real liability very quickly. 3gate Stargate punishes tech builds so hard, and you end up losing two SD's, a rax, and probably your reactor.
(4) This particular army composition is not very strong until it reaches a certain number and combination of units. The composition is strongest when set up in a contain which includes bunkers, towers, etc ... Keeping the fight in the middle of the map or at the Terran's front door will slow this push so incredibly badly.
(5) Stargate units pose the greatest threat, from what I've seen. Tanks cannot kill Zealots, and you will not have enough DPS to deal with the GS'd Zealots and VRs. You may even throw a phoenix or two in the mix the GB the tanks. Open 1gate Stargate on maps where you are expecting the 111 all-in.
From a person's perspective
The classic rebuttal to a post like mine is to grab some pro replay that supports your argument and say, "Look, if MC cannot do it, how do you expect us to do it?" Unless you're at the pro level you're playing scrubs like me and yourself. They will mess up. You can force them to mess up. You can screw with their plan by pressuring, flanking, setting up ambushes, or doing anything except waiting at your base for the tide of death to sweep you away.
It's really not your concern how, when or if the pros figure it out. What is your concern is how you're going to deal with it. Now, I realize that the vast majority of the metagame on the ladder in SC2 is just pro copycatting, and that is why referencing pros is so prevalant, but don't use the fact that they're struggling as a crutch for your own game.
I struggle versus tons of stuff and get great enjoyment out of troll-raging imbaimba ezmode, but when it truly comes down to it, we choose to play SC2 and have to deal with balance issues. Sometimes we get the nerfs we want, sometimes we get the buffs we want, but these tweaks will never address fundamental game-design issues that are at the heart of a lot of these debates.
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On August 23 2011 23:37 padfoota wrote:
DK said hes gonna nerf it anyways, dont see what all the QQ is about
source?
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On August 23 2011 23:33 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:25 Yaotzin wrote:
I only ever see appalling mistakes from the Terran when it's beaten. Forgetting siege mode. Not using it. Losing 3 banshees for nothing. etc. Can you give me one single replay where the push is executed even remotely well and is still held?
This isn't even getting into the fact that it's a stupid 1base allin build - it should be easy to crush, not almost impossible - if indeed it is almost and not completely. Unfortunately I can't because as I said, I watched it on their(Puzzle and Hero) stream. Maybe if you're lucky you can catch them on stream stopping it. Or go through Hero's replay pack and see if he held it there. 3 gate void-ray all-in is quite hard to hold too, although not on the same level. Naniwa beat someone on the Battlenet invitational even after being scouted. The nature of all-in is like that unfortunately. If all-ins were easy to hold we always see macro games which, while I can appreciate, can also turn into really weird and passive game like Top versus Zenio today.
All-ins should be very difficult to hold you have no idea they're coming, and progressively easier depending how early you scout them. If you lose to 3 Gate VR having scouted it like a minute before the attack hits, you botched your defense, or didn't react correctly.
Metalopolis is an exception, 3 Gate VR is probably too good there, but that's because of the extremely exposed mineral line.
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On August 23 2011 23:37 padfoota wrote:
alright so the nicest way atm is to one base fast ranged colli, even then it wont be an easy fight
Hard way is to go expo and try to hold it with gateway/immo
tested 20 games on KR, absolute bullshit, didnt lose once
DK said hes gonna nerf it anyways, dont see what all the QQ is about
Where did he say that ?
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on black citadel's stream. Nerfing infestor, buffing toss, nerfing terran 1 1 1
They discussed on removing shield but i doubt it will, like he quoted before - nerfing marines is like nerfing sentries - itll break the damn game
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On August 23 2011 23:37 padfoota wrote:
alright so the nicest way atm is to one base fast ranged colli, even then it wont be an easy fight
Hard way is to go expo and try to hold it with gateway/immo
tested 20 games on KR, absolute bullshit, didnt lose once
DK said hes gonna nerf it anyways, dont see what all the QQ is about
You just defended the 1-1-1 push 20 times with fast ranged colli? Nz 
Got replays?
And when did he say he would nerf it?
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On August 23 2011 23:39 padfoota wrote:
on black citadel's stream. Nerfing infestor, buffing toss, nerfing terran 1 1 1
They discussed on removing shield but i doubt it will, like he quoted before - nerfing marines is like nerfing sentries - itll break the damn game
is there a vod of that or something ?
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On August 23 2011 23:40 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:37 padfoota wrote:
alright so the nicest way atm is to one base fast ranged colli, even then it wont be an easy fight
Hard way is to go expo and try to hold it with gateway/immo
tested 20 games on KR, absolute bullshit, didnt lose once
DK said hes gonna nerf it anyways, dont see what all the QQ is about You just defended the 1-1-1 push 20 times with fast ranged colli? Nz Got replays? And when did he say he would nerf it?
im terran...yah sure i went colli off factory and played tvt with it
wat?
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EPT
