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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 22:18 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:16 Dalavita wrote:On August 23 2011 22:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:![[image loading]](http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/6254/lolmules2.png) I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is why MULEs present a bit of a problem in their current state. Since it's TvT, the guy with more SCVs should have an equal amount of mules as well. Also, that number means nothing, it's not sustained at 1.1k, that's just burst income when the mules bring back a truckton of minerals at the same time, since you drop them off at the same time. The guy with more SCVs actually has 1 less MULE because his 3rd is floating. This game was like what....an hour and a half ago? What I'm trying to point out is that in NO OTHER MIRROR can a player with a 30 harvester deficit EVER be even on income.
Also, that number means nothing, it's not sustained at 1.1k, that's just burst income when the mules bring back a truckton of minerals at the same time, since you drop them off at the same time.
I saw that game as well, and I'm pretty sure Tastless commented on it, around the lines of "He just dropped like six mules, he must have been scanning the energy for a scan".
Good job capturing the image just as all those mules brought in the minerals at the same time. It literally means nothing in the long run of the game.
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On August 23 2011 22:20 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:18 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 23 2011 22:16 Dalavita wrote:On August 23 2011 22:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is why MULEs present a bit of a problem in their current state. Since it's TvT, the guy with more SCVs should have an equal amount of mules as well. Also, that number means nothing, it's not sustained at 1.1k, that's just burst income when the mules bring back a truckton of minerals at the same time, since you drop them off at the same time. The guy with more SCVs actually has 1 less MULE because his 3rd is floating. This game was like what....an hour and a half ago? What I'm trying to point out is that in NO OTHER MIRROR can a player with a 30 harvester deficit EVER be even on income. Now you're bringing a TvT game into your mule crusade? Really man? Go to some other thread.
This one was actually just a joke. Saw it when I was watching GSL this evening and had myself a laugh. Everyone has their troll moments man 
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Gasless 1rax expand does beat blink stalker allins. It's very difficult depending on the map, but with perfect play you'll hold, just.
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On August 23 2011 22:20 snowroller1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 21:15 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 22 2011 21:11 snowroller1 wrote:On August 22 2011 21:02 Huntz wrote:hope you realize that for a terran to put up 3-4 bunkers to be safe against an all in + turret will put you so far behind if he doesnt all in its almost instant gg, you wont have the money to tech to deal with things like hts or collosus. as long as protoss scouts the 1/1/1 which is easy to do its easy to hold with good micro Well you could just scan and then know whether it's an all-in or not and regardless even if you make 8 bunkers its only 200 minerals at the end of the day (350 with turret) which is far less than going down the wrong tech tree/cutting probes for 2-3 minutes. scan 220 minerals, robo + 225 minerals + gas? whats your problem? you are so silly young kid. if you spend 800 minerals + turret at the start youll be sitting on max 2 barracks against a macro toss with 4-5 gates and tech, how do you expect terran to win there? What are you spending 800 Minerals on again? The Bunkers? That you salvage so they only actually cost you 200? The sad point is, Terrans actually factor in the minerals they don't gain from a MULE as a LOSS in income, when in reality, in a 1 Base vs 1 Base situation, it just leaves them equal with their opponent. If this Protoss is going for a 1 Base All-In, how does he afford 5 gates plus ANY tech? you are so stupid, if i build 8 bunkers at once i wont have resources to make barracks, and after i salvage them and have minerals to build production ill be 2 barracks against what, 5-6 gates and robo bay? learn to play thanks
600 Minerals for salvaging 8 bunkers is actually....4 Barracks.
Since when can protoss afford 5-6 gates, and colossus on 1 base?
I'll just assume you're kidding.
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Just slow Banshee production. Possibly somewhat delay PDD (more energy or swap with HSM as upgrade). This way protoss knows any tech lab starport push will be slightly weaker and they won't have to coin toss for which all in to defend. Banshee pushes are the only really shitty variations of 1/1/1 from what I noticed. All the rest (even the 2/1 + 1 medivac + stim) can be defended if you don't have to do stupid stuff to defend a possible marine/tank/banshee/raven.
At the moment all protoss does is guess and pick out a defense, usually FE against real 1/1/1, and pray terran actually does it and makes some mistakes.
You're wrong and terran got an earlier push, tough luck.
You're right and terran doesn't make mistakes or just contains, tough luck.
You attack, earlier, hoping to do enough eco damage to delay 1/1/1, sort of might work. A few hundred minerals less, and bit of gas less, a lucky food block and you might get enough reduction out of it to make 1/1/1 non viable.
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On August 23 2011 22:20 snowroller1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 21:15 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 22 2011 21:11 snowroller1 wrote:On August 22 2011 21:02 Huntz wrote:hope you realize that for a terran to put up 3-4 bunkers to be safe against an all in + turret will put you so far behind if he doesnt all in its almost instant gg, you wont have the money to tech to deal with things like hts or collosus. as long as protoss scouts the 1/1/1 which is easy to do its easy to hold with good micro Well you could just scan and then know whether it's an all-in or not and regardless even if you make 8 bunkers its only 200 minerals at the end of the day (350 with turret) which is far less than going down the wrong tech tree/cutting probes for 2-3 minutes. scan 220 minerals, robo + 225 minerals + gas? whats your problem? you are so silly young kid. if you spend 800 minerals + turret at the start youll be sitting on max 2 barracks against a macro toss with 4-5 gates and tech, how do you expect terran to win there? What are you spending 800 Minerals on again? The Bunkers? That you salvage so they only actually cost you 200? The sad point is, Terrans actually factor in the minerals they don't gain from a MULE as a LOSS in income, when in reality, in a 1 Base vs 1 Base situation, it just leaves them equal with their opponent. If this Protoss is going for a 1 Base All-In, how does he afford 5 gates plus ANY tech? you are so stupid, if i build 8 bunkers at once i wont have resources to make barracks, and after i salvage them and have minerals to build production ill be 2 barracks against what, 5-6 gates and robo bay? learn to play thanks
What build are you doing and what all in are you facing that you have two barracks and 8 bunkers at the time where if the protoss was macroing enough to support 5 gate + tech...that's like saying if I build 6 cannons to prepare against a roach/ling all in and it doesn't come that it's unfair.
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The people that don't think 1-1-1 is a problem seem to be falling into two distinct camps.
Camp A: admits that Protoss right now is severely struggling to beat this, and acknowledge that it's a problem that it's so hard to stop even when blind-countered, but believe that a solution will be found within the existing game eventually (i.e. without a balance patch).
Camp B: Thinks Protoss players are just QQing whiners and that players like Genius and MC just do crazy all ins themselves or lose virtually every game because they are retards. Every game a P wins vs T, whether or not anything like 1-1-1 is used, is quoted as evidence supporting this stance.
The problem is, the group of people that believe this is a real problem and does need patching are fighting a losing battle - they can't convince Camp A because only "more time with no solution" will convince Camp A. They also can't convince Camp B because Camp B are essentially trolls (well, Can't Tell If troll or actually believes the collective players of one race are dumber than another. So troll in practice if not always in intent).
The original post was a detailed, well thought out, and nicely evidenced post that went a long way to explaining why Protoss struggles with it, and why we are seeing fast expand builds from P in situations where it makes no sense to someone unfamiliar with this (e.g. when Killer kept trying fast Nexus at IEM and the chat was full of "wtf? why? huh? lol?").
Net result: solutions are looking hard to find - on both sides. People that understand the issue but don't think it's a balance problem nevertheless seem pretty bad at suggesting any actual ingame solutions. But at the same time, people that DO think it's a problem seem pretty bad at suggesting how to change the game to fix it without wrecking something else.
TL;DR No matter which camp you're in, the answer right now almost HAS to be "wait and see" because there's no reasonable alternative currently available.
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What I'm trying to point out is that in NO OTHER MIRROR can a player with a 30 harvester deficit EVER be even on income.
If the protoss uses his chrono on nexus he can catch up quickly against a protoss player using his chrono on army, zerg can choose to build more drones instead of attacking units as well. We have all seen matches where the harvester imbalance is not as drastic as it seems, because zerg and toss can double worker production whenever they feel like it.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rnGpm.jpg)
Did the same thing for Terran with a second supply depot to deny early scouting. Of course a 9 Scout still passes the wall-in on Xel'Naga, but on 4 player maps you won't be able to scout the Terran. I also had a scouting SCV outside the whole time.
Results:
8:08
3430 Minerals, 1132 Gas
9:00
4195, 1332 Gas
9:30
4605 Minerals, 1407 Gas
(The gas numbers look glitched because after a game pause the full 5 gas per transfer won't be added)
If you want to add-in the lost scv mining time because of the buildings, you should go for a number between 50 and 100 (just imagine that you have 1/2 scvs which are going to be building stuff the whole time)
I don't know when the OP decided to take his second gas, but for me as a Protoss player it seems to be way to early, normally you don't want your opponent to scout it.
-> In comparison the Gas numbers are around the same but the Terran should be able to get a +500 Mineral Lead easily. Keep in mind that some Terrans decide to Scan, that would cost around 250 Minerals.
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On August 23 2011 22:38 Binabik wrote:Did the same thing for Terran with a second supply depot to deny early scouting. Of course a 9 Scout still passes the wall-in on Xel'Naga, but on 4 player maps you won't be able to scout the Terran. I also had a scouting SCV outside the whole time. Results: 8:08 3430 Minerals, 1132 Gas 9:00 4195, 1332 Gas 9:30 4605 Minerals, 1407 Gas (The gas numbers look glitched because after a game pause the full 5 gas per transfer won't be added) If you want to add-in the lost scv mining time because of the buildings, you should go for a number between 50 and 100 (just imagine that you have 1/2 scvs which are going to be building stuff the whole time) I don't know when the OP decided to take his second gas, but for me as a Protoss player it seems to be way to early, normally you don't want your opponent to scout it. -> In comparison the Gas numbers are around the same but the Terran should be able to get a +500 Mineral Lead easily. Keep in mind that some Terrans decide to Scan, that would cost around 250 Minerals.
Could you repost your Protoss one as well please? I can't even remember what page it's on.
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You usually want an early second gas for sentries while you make more gates/nexus/whatever. Waiting for a stalker to stop scouting is a really late gas I'd say.
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On August 23 2011 22:41 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Could you repost your Protoss one as well please? I can't even remember what page it's on.
It's in the OP, but I didn't do it.
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why is people crying about 1-1-1 now it's been a year and this build has not been changed in anyway. the units used in 1-1-1 have not changed at all in patches. Like many zerg players who started facing new 2 rax, or new blue flame builds, will have to adapt, most players will look to the pro's for new builds. If pro's have no new builds everyone crys nerf? wth.
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On August 23 2011 22:51 momonami5 wrote:
why is people crying about 1-1-1 now it's been a year and this build has not been changed in anyway. the units used in 1-1-1 have not changed at all in patches. Like many zerg players who started facing new 2 rax, or new blue flame builds, will have to adapt, most players will look to the pro's for new builds. If pro's have no new builds everyone crys nerf? wth.
Protoss got nerfed is what changed. The usual responses to a greedy build like 1/1/1 got gutted.
People do have a new build, it just dies if the Terran scouts you and responds correctly.
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On August 23 2011 22:51 momonami5 wrote:
why is people crying about 1-1-1 now it's been a year and this build has not been changed in anyway. the units used in 1-1-1 have not changed at all in patches. Like many zerg players who started facing new 2 rax, or new blue flame builds, will have to adapt, most players will look to the pro's for new builds. If pro's have no new builds everyone crys nerf? wth.
This build hasnt, but the protoss counter all ins have.
Remember voids were nerfed and the warp gate timing was nerfed. And since the early game threat from the protoss side is now gone, a terran can pull off this kind of build while cutting more corners, and making it stronger when it hits.
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On August 22 2011 06:12 DooMDash wrote:
I think the counter to 1-1-1 is time. How many games have your Protoss players played against bio builds? How long did it take people to kind of quiet down about Marauders realizing they weren't the end all most imba unit in the world? Look at the drop in Terran win % when archons got changed. I think Terrans have been great at adapting to every patch change or meta game change, and this 1-1-1 stuff just came out and people seem so unwilling to continue trying for more than a month.
I don't think you were around when the beta began then.
I played Terran in the beta at a very high level, and the 1/1/1 build was the "Standard" back then. If 12 months is an amount of time for something to "just come out", then I guess we still haven't figured out how to beat marauders considering it only took us a couple weeks. Honest to God, marauders were never whined about that much. It was for a month I think where people didn't understand the concept of heavy chargelots in the mid game and sentry force fielding in the early game, which makes me think that saying this 1-1-1 build has "just come out" is complete bogus. It's been since day 1 of beta. This doesn't prove imbalance btw, this is just saying that the 1-1-1 hasn't JUST come out.
I'm not going to say it needs to be nurfed, because I'm not Blizzard. However, I will say that until it does get nurfed or until it doesn't, continue practicing rather than wasting your practice time writing threads about imbalance. The 30 minutes it took u to look over a forum and reply and write on a thread is 30 minutes NOT going into practicing AGAINST a specific build you may be writing about, in this case the 1-1-1. That goes for everyone, even myself.
Do you guys want to know how to beat the 1-1-1?
Quote - "I have a professional player tip. Here's how you LEARN to beat a strategy. You play against it. You play against it, a lot." - Kudoku
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On August 23 2011 23:07 Kudoku wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:12 DooMDash wrote:
I think the counter to 1-1-1 is time. How many games have your Protoss players played against bio builds? How long did it take people to kind of quiet down about Marauders realizing they weren't the end all most imba unit in the world? Look at the drop in Terran win % when archons got changed. I think Terrans have been great at adapting to every patch change or meta game change, and this 1-1-1 stuff just came out and people seem so unwilling to continue trying for more than a month. I don't think you were around when the beta began then. I played Terran in the beta at a very high level, and the 1/1/1 build was the "Standard" back then. If 12 months is an amount of time for something to "just come out", then I guess we still haven't figured out how to beat marauders considering it only took us a couple weeks. Honest to God, marauders were never whined about that much. It was for a month I think where people didn't understand the concept of heavy chargelots in the mid game and sentry force fielding in the early game, which makes me think that saying this 1-1-1 build has "just come out" is complete bogus. It's been since day 1 of beta. This doesn't prove imbalance btw, this is just saying that the 1-1-1 hasn't JUST come out. I'm not going to say it needs to be nurfed, because I'm not Blizzard. However, I will say that until it does get nurfed or until it doesn't, continue practicing rather than wasting your practice time writing threads about imbalance. The 30 minutes it took u to look over a forum and reply and write on a thread is 30 minutes NOT going into practicing AGAINST a specific build you may be writing about, in this case the 1-1-1. That goes for everyone, even myself. Do you guys want to know how to beat the 1-1-1? Quote - "I have a professional player tip. Here's how you LEARN to beat a strategy. You play against it. You play against it, a lot." - Kudoku
If by a couple weeks 2/3 entire seasons of GSL you're right  It took MC to show us forcefields are actually good and can be used offensively. But those were the days you could 4 gate to diamond.
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Suppose - for a moment that it is in fact imba. If so, practicing more against it is nothing more than banging your head against a wall - you'll never improve against it because there's nothing to improve on, you're losing because it's just plain broken. Or you'll "improve" in the sense that they have fewer marines left when they kill you.
Professional Protoss players appear - given comments on twitters, and their games (MC v Puma G3, Genius vs Virus, Killer vs Select) - to have given up trying and they just allin or try wacky shit. Or 15 nexus and pray Terran scouts you last..If pros have given up against a build I'm certainly not wasting my time against it.
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On August 23 2011 23:15 Yaotzin wrote:
Suppose - for a moment that it is in fact imba. If so, practicing more against it is nothing more than banging your head against a wall - you'll never improve against it because there's nothing to improve on, you're losing because it's just plain broken. Or you'll "improve" in the sense that they have fewer marines left when they kill you.
Professional Protoss players appear - given comments on twitters, and their games (MC v Puma G3, Genius vs Virus, Killer vs Select) - to have given up trying and they just allin or try wacky shit. Or 15 nexus and pray Terran scouts you last..If pros have given up against a build I'm certainly not wasting my time against it.
Is there a vod or replay of that MC Puma game? I feel like I am missing out.
And yeah thats my sentiments. Im just gonna accept my losses on the ladder and move on. I still hold it off but....yeah Im not pro.
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On August 23 2011 22:54 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:51 momonami5 wrote:
why is people crying about 1-1-1 now it's been a year and this build has not been changed in anyway. the units used in 1-1-1 have not changed at all in patches. Like many zerg players who started facing new 2 rax, or new blue flame builds, will have to adapt, most players will look to the pro's for new builds. If pro's have no new builds everyone crys nerf? wth. Protoss got nerfed is what changed. The usual responses to a greedy build like 1/1/1 got gutted. People do have a new build, it just dies if the Terran scouts you and responds correctly.
What changes did protoss go through that affected their ability to hold the 1/1/1?
Not saying there arent any, i just cant remember them.
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EPT
