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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 21:59 Dalavita wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2011 21:58 Teiwaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 21:54 Hassybaby wrote:
Well there you go guys. Genius showed us how to beat the 1/1/1
Do a quicker all-in Seems true and it makes me really sad... PvT officially a destroyed MU due to "who can all-in faster?" - really Blizzard? Metagame, do you know the word? Chill and wait. It'll get figured out.
Poetic justice, do you know the term? I'll be there and remind you to "chill and wait" when - for the very first time - Terran falls so drastically behind in win% just because of a single build/unit.
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+ Show Spoiler [gsl spoilers] +On August 23 2011 22:01 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:00 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 21:53 SolidGasPro wrote:Genius owned, so I guess it's time for Terran to QQ? Nah, we don't QQ  And why should you???????? In both games terran didnt scout voids. He saw them for the first time, when they were at his ramp. And now 111: you scout it, or blind counter it, and lose anyway. Then again Genius didn't scout the allin the first game until it was too late. But i still saw P qq xd Genius didnt, but MC did, and he still lost those games.
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On August 23 2011 22:04 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:02 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 21:54 w_Ender_w wrote:
I think at this point a lot of you are twisting anything to try to convince yourselves that 1/1/1 is the only thing that matters and its imbalanced. Games with no 1/1/1 involved are being used as examples and people are talking about how wrong people like Artosis and Tyler are because they aren't trying to fit a square peg into a circular hole. Maybe you should stop pulling a Socrates on us and actually read what has been said on the first post before posting. Terran gets more money/minute overtime and has more cost efficient units(siege/marine/banshee) which will never allow the protoss to win in a fair situation. The only way for protoss to win is for the terran to make a mistake by suiciding 3 banshees or something. There's an imbalance when you rely on your opponent to make the mistake rather than you playing good. I've read the OP, its a great well thought our post. However the content and discussion of the thread at this point has very little to do with the spirit of the OP.
You are part of the problem that this thread has very little to do with the OP, because you come in telling people how they are trying to fit "square pegs into circular holes" when mathematically speaking its impossible for a protoss to keep up with a terran in terms of minerals/minute and cost-efficiency. The only way for protoss to deal with a terrans banshee/tank/marine is to get tier 3 units which are cost efficient in comparison to Terran but by the time he has his collusi w/ range, the terran is already bunkered up in his natural which is always a lose-lose situation for protoss.
The best response to 1/1/1 from what I've seen or read in this thread is probably MC's build where he pre-plans to sack his main to re-create it somewhere else.
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On August 23 2011 22:07 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:03 Zorgaz wrote:On August 23 2011 22:01 CellTech wrote:On August 23 2011 22:00 Zorgaz wrote:On August 23 2011 21:57 CellTech wrote:On August 23 2011 21:54 Hassybaby wrote:
Well there you go guys. Genius showed us how to beat the 1/1/1
Do a quicker all-in Except neither game was 1-1-1 you -censored- It was a 2gate maka into 'O sh!t' banshee. 3rd game was marauder expand I think I heard. Well if you have any PvT sense you could clearly see that the VR-allin would crush 1-1-1 atleast as hard as crushed the MM expand build. Yes, you're right. Reactor barracks pumping rines is weaker than a techlab rax pumping marauder/concussive. vs. voids. In the 1-1-1 we would see 1-2 rax at this stage. WITHOUT a addon. AND NO STIM ON THE MARINES. Do you think Banshees and Tanks don't cost gas or something? -.-' No, you'd see one reactored rax. You build another 2 a little before you push. Thanks for making it clear you don't even know what the 1/1/1 is.
Yeah your right theirs only ''1'' correct way to do it you say?!
Well I'll tell you this, spending gas on a reactor instead of just building 3 rax would be a waste of gas. Face it with mules the mineral isn't a problem. But that wasn't even my point and i guess that's must my view. BUT the crucial thing is that he wouldn't have had stim anyway.
Try kiting marines without stim.
Then with stim, see the difference?!
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I love how Yaotzin is on a personal crusade against the 1-1-1 and its heretical followers.
You go man,your fighting a fight,that I personally,don't have the nerves for
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On August 23 2011 22:09 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:07 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:03 Zorgaz wrote:On August 23 2011 22:01 CellTech wrote:On August 23 2011 22:00 Zorgaz wrote:On August 23 2011 21:57 CellTech wrote:On August 23 2011 21:54 Hassybaby wrote:
Well there you go guys. Genius showed us how to beat the 1/1/1
Do a quicker all-in Except neither game was 1-1-1 you -censored- It was a 2gate maka into 'O sh!t' banshee. 3rd game was marauder expand I think I heard. Well if you have any PvT sense you could clearly see that the VR-allin would crush 1-1-1 atleast as hard as crushed the MM expand build. Yes, you're right. Reactor barracks pumping rines is weaker than a techlab rax pumping marauder/concussive. vs. voids. In the 1-1-1 we would see 1-2 rax at this stage. WITHOUT a addon. AND NO STIM ON THE MARINES. Do you think Banshees and Tanks don't cost gas or something? -.-' No, you'd see one reactored rax. You build another 2 a little before you push. Thanks for making it clear you don't even know what the 1/1/1 is. Yeah your right theirs only ''1'' correct way to do it you say?! Well I'll tell you this, spending gas on a reactor instead of just building 3 rax would be a waste of gas. Face it with mules the mineral isn't a problem. And the crucial thing is that he wouldn't have had stim anyway. Try kiting marines without stim. Then with stim, see the difference?!
You don't need more gas you need more minerals. It's a marine allin. Marines cost minerals. You clearly have no clue what this allin is about so why am I bothering.
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On August 23 2011 22:07 Teiwaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 21:59 Dalavita wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2011 21:58 Teiwaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 21:54 Hassybaby wrote:
Well there you go guys. Genius showed us how to beat the 1/1/1
Do a quicker all-in Seems true and it makes me really sad... PvT officially a destroyed MU due to "who can all-in faster?" - really Blizzard? Metagame, do you know the word? Chill and wait. It'll get figured out. Poetic justice, do you know the term? I'll be there and remind you to "chill and wait" when - for the very first time - Terran falls so drastically behind in win% just because of a single build/unit.
Difference is, I won't care when that happens. It'll just be a metagame thing that'll get solved.
In the meantime, have a napkin.
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![[image loading]](http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/6254/lolmules2.png)
I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is why MULEs present a bit of a problem in their current state.
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On August 23 2011 22:11 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:09 Zorgaz wrote:On August 23 2011 22:07 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:03 Zorgaz wrote:On August 23 2011 22:01 CellTech wrote:On August 23 2011 22:00 Zorgaz wrote:On August 23 2011 21:57 CellTech wrote:Except neither game was 1-1-1 you -censored- It was a 2gate maka into 'O sh!t' banshee. 3rd game was marauder expand I think I heard. Well if you have any PvT sense you could clearly see that the VR-allin would crush 1-1-1 atleast as hard as crushed the MM expand build. Yes, you're right. Reactor barracks pumping rines is weaker than a techlab rax pumping marauder/concussive. vs. voids. In the 1-1-1 we would see 1-2 rax at this stage. WITHOUT a addon. AND NO STIM ON THE MARINES. Do you think Banshees and Tanks don't cost gas or something? -.-' No, you'd see one reactored rax. You build another 2 a little before you push. Thanks for making it clear you don't even know what the 1/1/1 is. Yeah your right theirs only ''1'' correct way to do it you say?! Well I'll tell you this, spending gas on a reactor instead of just building 3 rax would be a waste of gas. Face it with mules the mineral isn't a problem. And the crucial thing is that he wouldn't have had stim anyway. Try kiting marines without stim. Then with stim, see the difference?! You don't need more gas you need more minerals. It's a marine allin. Marines cost minerals. You clearly have no clue what this allin is about so why am I bothering.
A marine costs 50 minerals. That means 3 marines costs 150 minerals. I guess maybe I'm doing it wrong but I've NEVER EVER had a problem getting 150 minerals for the marines every 25 seconds (SC2 time)
And as i said that wasn't the point so why are you bothering with it then? The thing about no upgrades for the marines was the point -.-'.
What in Marines with stim>marines don't you get?
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pvt is awesome i dont know what you guys are whining about
there are tanks and ravens and banshees and this is something thats not "mmm+-g when you hit your emp i lose when not i win"
i would like see the first game from virus vs genius with a cc and without the scvs in the push but there we are the game changes and this takes time
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On August 22 2011 21:57 Binabik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 21:51 Tyrant0 wrote:On August 22 2011 21:49 Yaotzin wrote:On August 22 2011 21:47 Tyrant0 wrote:On August 22 2011 21:32 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 22 2011 21:26 Dusen wrote:
the original 1/1/1 build marine,marauder, tank and medivac is countered so hard by like 5 phoenixs.
1 gate exp, into stargate and add on more gates.
The problem is the new style with the raven and banshee, witch is at this moment impossible to counter.
The problem is: Terran can easily deny scouting until Robo/Stargate tech is out that you have to coinflip. If you 1 Gate FE into Stargate to counter even the OLD 1-1-1 build, ANY other Terran build will crush you. If you don't, and he uses the 1-1-1, you lose outright anyway. Terran doesn't have that much control over what you can see. Any decent and willing protoss can deduce whether or not the Terran is making marauders, which pretty much leaves him with teching or expanding greedily. Even if you did go stargate blind, it definitely has functions against a standard bio army. They won't push until their mineral lines are defended. Polt often abuses the fact that no, you can't see if he's going marauders, by going 2rax reactor first and puts a bunker up, making his opponent think it's a 1-1-1. So the Protoss is forced to 1gate FE ASAP, and he then pushes with his 2rax and cancels the expo at worst and he's well ahead. 2 rax pushes can be held by a 1 gate though, unless you think you're going to pull it off close positions. No they can't. People here should really only post when they know what they're talking about. Against 2Rax Reactor/TechLab you have to pull 1 million probes and they're going to die in like 3 seconds.
they easily can, but since you 4g every game i doubt you´d experience it
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On August 23 2011 22:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is why MULEs present a bit of a problem in their current state.
The problem is if you nerf something as essential as the mule you change ALL the Terran builds and probably present severe imbalances lategame when they can't keep up with crono/queen macro. Blizz might consider changing it for HotS but I HIGHLY doubt they'll do anything that severe in WoL.
TL;DR Changing the mule is not an option during the lifetime of WoL.
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On August 23 2011 22:09 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:04 w_Ender_w wrote:On August 23 2011 22:02 sekritzzz wrote:On August 23 2011 21:54 w_Ender_w wrote:
I think at this point a lot of you are twisting anything to try to convince yourselves that 1/1/1 is the only thing that matters and its imbalanced. Games with no 1/1/1 involved are being used as examples and people are talking about how wrong people like Artosis and Tyler are because they aren't trying to fit a square peg into a circular hole. Maybe you should stop pulling a Socrates on us and actually read what has been said on the first post before posting. Terran gets more money/minute overtime and has more cost efficient units(siege/marine/banshee) which will never allow the protoss to win in a fair situation. The only way for protoss to win is for the terran to make a mistake by suiciding 3 banshees or something. There's an imbalance when you rely on your opponent to make the mistake rather than you playing good. I've read the OP, its a great well thought our post. However the content and discussion of the thread at this point has very little to do with the spirit of the OP. You are part of the problem that this thread has very little to do with the OP, because you come in telling people how they are trying to fit "square pegs into circular holes" when mathematically speaking its impossible for a protoss to keep up with a terran in terms of minerals/minute and cost-efficiency. The only way for protoss to deal with a terrans banshee/tank/marine is to get tier 3 units which are cost efficient in comparison to Terran but by the time he has his collusi w/ range, the terran is already bunkered up in his natural which is always a lose-lose situation for protoss. The best response to 1/1/1 from what I've seen or read in this thread is probably MC's build where he pre-plans to sack his main to re-create it somewhere else.
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
+ Show Spoiler +
I just don't see how people in a TL thread are making such definitive statements about what is right and wrong in response to a build when A: you have pro players and commentators saying different things, and B: there obviously isn't a definitive response otherwise it would be stopped.
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On August 23 2011 22:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is why MULEs present a bit of a problem in their current state.
Since it's TvT, the guy with more SCVs should have an equal amount of mules as well.
Also, that number means nothing, it's not sustained at 1.1k, that's just burst income when the mules bring back a truckton of minerals at the same time, since you drop them off at the same time.
The math for mules has been figured out for a while.
Each mules brings in a constant income similar to 4-5 SCVs. The income tab has never been accurate because it only shows current income (which tends to spike when 4-6 mules bring in 30 minerals each at the exact same time, even if they take 2x SCV rounds to do it again), and not an overtime one.
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On August 22 2011 22:30 Binabik wrote:
1Gate Stargate Expand loses against Stim Timings, that's why nobody uses it
not if you only build 3 phoenix
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On August 23 2011 22:16 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is why MULEs present a bit of a problem in their current state. Since it's TvT, the guy with more SCVs should have an equal amount of mules as well. Also, that number means nothing, it's not sustained at 1.1k, that's just burst income when the mules bring back a truckton of minerals at the same time, since you drop them off at the same time.
The guy with more SCVs actually has 1 less MULE because his 3rd is floating.
This game was like what....an hour and a half ago?
What I'm trying to point out is that in NO OTHER MIRROR can a player with a 30 harvester deficit EVER be even on income.
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On August 22 2011 21:15 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 21:11 snowroller1 wrote:On August 22 2011 21:02 Huntz wrote:hope you realize that for a terran to put up 3-4 bunkers to be safe against an all in + turret will put you so far behind if he doesnt all in its almost instant gg, you wont have the money to tech to deal with things like hts or collosus. as long as protoss scouts the 1/1/1 which is easy to do its easy to hold with good micro Well you could just scan and then know whether it's an all-in or not and regardless even if you make 8 bunkers its only 200 minerals at the end of the day (350 with turret) which is far less than going down the wrong tech tree/cutting probes for 2-3 minutes. scan 220 minerals, robo + 225 minerals + gas? whats your problem? you are so silly young kid. if you spend 800 minerals + turret at the start youll be sitting on max 2 barracks against a macro toss with 4-5 gates and tech, how do you expect terran to win there? What are you spending 800 Minerals on again? The Bunkers? That you salvage so they only actually cost you 200? The sad point is, Terrans actually factor in the minerals they don't gain from a MULE as a LOSS in income, when in reality, in a 1 Base vs 1 Base situation, it just leaves them equal with their opponent. If this Protoss is going for a 1 Base All-In, how does he afford 5 gates plus ANY tech?
you are so stupid, if i build 8 bunkers at once i wont have resources to make barracks, and after i salvage them and have minerals to build production ill be 2 barracks against what, 5-6 gates and robo bay? learn to play thanks
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On August 23 2011 22:18 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:16 Dalavita wrote:On August 23 2011 22:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is why MULEs present a bit of a problem in their current state. Since it's TvT, the guy with more SCVs should have an equal amount of mules as well. Also, that number means nothing, it's not sustained at 1.1k, that's just burst income when the mules bring back a truckton of minerals at the same time, since you drop them off at the same time. The guy with more SCVs actually has 1 less MULE because his 3rd is floating. This game was like what....an hour and a half ago? What I'm trying to point out is that in NO OTHER MIRROR can a player with a 30 harvester deficit EVER be even on income.
Now you're bringing a TvT game into your mule crusade? Really man? Go to some other thread.
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On August 23 2011 22:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is why MULEs present a bit of a problem in their current state.
Deary me, not this again. The income tab isn't accurate when it comes to mules. It spikes up right when they deliver their cargo to something much higher than reality. One mule is ~4 scvs. For the guy with a third the number of workers to be even he'd have to have something like 8 mules going at all times.
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On August 22 2011 21:19 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 21:11 snowroller1 wrote:On August 22 2011 21:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 22 2011 20:57 Zowon wrote:On August 22 2011 20:41 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 22 2011 20:28 Binabik wrote:On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way. please tell me the builds you are talking about Exactly. "If you prepare against it, you'll most likely defend it" hardly seems to be true at this point. Terran building Bunkers that "cost" 25 Minerals or Turrets that cost 150 Minerals is a HUGE difference from Protoss choosing the incorrect Tech Path against a Terran. "You can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area" Terrans get greedy and don't build a Bunker + Turret which costs 175 Minerals (300 if you want to get really picky and count the Engineering Bay you're going to get for upgrades anyway). Thorzain, you're basically acknowledging that Terrans can 1 Rax FE (or possibly even 14CC) two of the greediest builds in the game, and with a 175 (300 -_-) Mineral investment, be almost perfectly safe against ANY Protoss All-In, and you're comparing that to countering the 1-1-1? "Phoenix Chargelot is regarded to a pretty good counter to 1-1-1" I've yet to see a super-high level game where Phoenix-Chargelot beats 1-1-1. I've seen games in the GSL where a player goes blind Stargate into Phoenix-Chargelot and loses pretty soundly, so I'm going to go with "pretty good" meaning "the closest I've seen". "1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with builds other than 1 Base, 1Gate Expo, or Nexus first" What builds? You can say "It's holdable" but until ANYONE actually accomplishes it against a player of equal skill level, it's not. Seriously, I like you as a player, but this is just an embarrassing post. Sorry ThorZain, Terran is pretty OP with this build. I was actually at least mildly surprised we didn't see a reaction to this like we did to 5 Rax Reaper from Blizzards end. EDIT: I would just like to throw in here, for the 1,000th time in this thread, the reason 1-1-1 is suddenly popular again is because with the Voidray Nerf, and the Warp Gate nerf, combined with a few other minor balance tweaks,as well as this build not being popular at that point in the metagame left it in a powerful position, one which is now being exploited by Terran players at every level of play. Your saying that terrans can 1rax FE and 14 CC and be almost completely safe? Dude, I'd like to see your statistics on this. Yes. On a 4 player map, that is EXACTLY what I'm saying. First please note I said "possibly even 14CC" which would imply that it may NOT be true. For the low price of 200 Minerals, you can 1 Rax FE with your CC in your main, and hold your ramp with two bunkers, and a turret against.....what....EVERY Protoss 1-Base play? Meanwhile, to hold our ramp with constant Forcefields, Protoss players invest in....4 sentries, which is 200 Minerals AND 400 gas. So yes, I don't even think I need to bother a way to FIND statistics to prove that. i want to see force fields to block scvs and blink against your bunkers If you're still on the early stage of your 1 Rax FE where you actually still only have 1 Rax, and he has Blink off of one base, you're not playing the game correctly and should not be allowed to comment on balance in any respect. Every Sentry a Protoss player makes is one less attacking unit. Factor it in like that. Furthermore, by the time an attack comes, due to the amount of time required for WarpGate research, you WILL be producing off of 3 Barracks, which is more than enough to hold any sort of Protoss poke, especially on the high ground, with two Bunkers and SCVs.
3 naked barracks does not beat 4gates with blink research
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/lolmules2.png/)
