On August 24 2011 00:21 RajaF wrote: This thread is eerily similar to threads that popped up a few months ago about how colossus are overpowered. No nerf came and lo and behold, who will say that colossus is OP now?
Idra
That made me lol a bit
Actually, he acknowledged on his stream last night that stalker colossus no longer destroyed everything and that NP was good against Colossus. Amazing I know!
Whoa... the earth shook a bit there last night. Was wondering what that was.
Also, I'm a zerg player, but wouldn't HT with feedback work well against cloak banshee/raven? Can you even get HT by the time the 1/1/1 hits?
On August 24 2011 00:21 RajaF wrote: This thread is eerily similar to threads that popped up a few months ago about how colossus are overpowered. No nerf came and lo and behold, who will say that colossus is OP now?
The issue with the Colossus hasn't been balance for a really long time, people complain about it because it's a boring unit and too much of P's play is focused around it.
On August 24 2011 00:48 RajaF wrote: Whoa... the earth shook a bit there last night. Was wondering what that was.
Also, I'm a zerg player, but wouldn't HT with feedback work well against cloak banshee/raven? Can you even get HT by the time the 1/1/1 hits?
Even if you can, that's a lot of tech just to Feedback the Raven which might get its PDD off anyway and the Banshee which will probably be low on energy. You will have such a weaker force than if you got a Robo, plus, :loldetection: ? Get it for Archons if you get it
On August 24 2011 00:21 RajaF wrote: This thread is eerily similar to threads that popped up a few months ago about how colossus are overpowered. No nerf came and lo and behold, who will say that colossus is OP now?
Idra
That made me lol a bit
Actually, he acknowledged on his stream last night that stalker colossus no longer destroyed everything and that NP was good against Colossus. Amazing I know!
Whoa... the earth shook a bit there last night. Was wondering what that was.
Also, I'm a zerg player, but wouldn't HT with feedback work well against cloak banshee/raven? Can you even get HT by the time the 1/1/1 hits?
Yes but not storm. And feedbacks won't cut it. Neither would the 1 or maybe 2 archons as you are cutting an ENORMOUS amount of gas to try and rush there.
HT yes storm no. It'll probably work fine. Then you'll realise you just spent 400/500 to feedback a raven, and the marines will roll you.
The issue with the Colossus hasn't been balance for a really long time, people complain about it because it's a boring unit and too much of P's play is focused around it.
Among sensible people yes, but only recently have the usual suspects finally stopped calling it imba.
On August 24 2011 00:50 Yaotzin wrote: HT yes storm no. It'll probably work fine. Then you'll realise you just spent 400/500 to feedback a raven, and the marines will roll you.
Thats only if you aren't researching storm at the same time too.
On August 23 2011 22:51 momonami5 wrote: why is people crying about 1-1-1 now it's been a year and this build has not been changed in anyway. the units used in 1-1-1 have not changed at all in patches. Like many zerg players who started facing new 2 rax, or new blue flame builds, will have to adapt, most players will look to the pro's for new builds. If pro's have no new builds everyone crys nerf? wth.
Protoss got nerfed is what changed. The usual responses to a greedy build like 1/1/1 got gutted.
People do have a new build, it just dies if the Terran scouts you and responds correctly.
What changes did protoss go through that affected their ability to hold the 1/1/1?
Not saying there arent any, i just cant remember them.
Certainly they're not talking about the Flux Veins ... That would be outrageous. They are certainly not talking about the KA nerf, because that would also be silly. They are probably just talking about the classic 4gate all-in (warpgate timing).
From a Terran's perspective: (1) Tech builds are super greedy and are almost always countered by early aggression from the Toss. In this particular build, the Terran typically rushes for a reactor.
(2) The Terran has to wall otherwise early Zealot Stalker Probe pressure can do massive damage.
(3) The wall becomes a very real liability very quickly. 3gate Stargate punishes tech builds so hard, and you end up losing two SD's, a rax, and probably your reactor.
(4) This particular army composition is not very strong until it reaches a certain number and combination of units. The composition is strongest when set up in a contain which includes bunkers, towers, etc ... Keeping the fight in the middle of the map or at the Terran's front door will slow this push so incredibly badly.
(5) Stargate units pose the greatest threat, from what I've seen. Tanks cannot kill Zealots, and you will not have enough DPS to deal with the GS'd Zealots and VRs. You may even throw a phoenix or two in the mix the GB the tanks. Open 1gate Stargate on maps where you are expecting the 111 all-in.
From a person's perspective The classic rebuttal to a post like mine is to grab some pro replay that supports your argument and say, "Look, if MC cannot do it, how do you expect us to do it?" Unless you're at the pro level you're playing scrubs like me and yourself. They will mess up. You can force them to mess up. You can screw with their plan by pressuring, flanking, setting up ambushes, or doing anything except waiting at your base for the tide of death to sweep you away.
It's really not your concern how, when or if the pros figure it out. What is your concern is how you're going to deal with it. Now, I realize that the vast majority of the metagame on the ladder in SC2 is just pro copycatting, and that is why referencing pros is so prevalant, but don't use the fact that they're struggling as a crutch for your own game.
I struggle versus tons of stuff and get great enjoyment out of troll-raging imbaimba ezmode, but when it truly comes down to it, we choose to play SC2 and have to deal with balance issues. Sometimes we get the nerfs we want, sometimes we get the buffs we want, but these tweaks will never address fundamental game-design issues that are at the heart of a lot of these debates.
Actually I enjoy watching pro matches far more than playing on ladder. And since watching protoss gosus get owned by an a-move build is no fun at all, it is my concern.
Calling this all-in an a+move victory is just a slap in the face.
No it is not. Compared to all ins which actually require great execution and micro (like blink stalkers of one base), this is easy mode.
A big f**k you too all the guys on ladder telling me to go play terran then if it is so strong. I want to be able to enjoy the game as the race of my choice.
On August 24 2011 00:52 Yaotzin wrote: Yeah 400/500 is the cost of the first templar. Storm and/or more templar and it just rises very fast :/
I feel like the unit should have more than just 1 spell and 1 unlockable spell. Seems really rushed to me.
Or at least an attack.
That tech tree looks like it should have been built to take this kind of push down. And indeed thats how I bet it was originally designed. But you just cannot get there in time no matter what you do....
On August 23 2011 22:51 momonami5 wrote: why is people crying about 1-1-1 now it's been a year and this build has not been changed in anyway. the units used in 1-1-1 have not changed at all in patches. Like many zerg players who started facing new 2 rax, or new blue flame builds, will have to adapt, most players will look to the pro's for new builds. If pro's have no new builds everyone crys nerf? wth.
Protoss got nerfed is what changed. The usual responses to a greedy build like 1/1/1 got gutted.
People do have a new build, it just dies if the Terran scouts you and responds correctly.
What changes did protoss go through that affected their ability to hold the 1/1/1?
Not saying there arent any, i just cant remember them.
Certainly they're not talking about the Flux Veins ... That would be outrageous. They are certainly not talking about the KA nerf, because that would also be silly. They are probably just talking about the classic 4gate all-in (warpgate timing).
From a Terran's perspective: (1) Tech builds are super greedy and are almost always countered by early aggression from the Toss. In this particular build, the Terran typically rushes for a reactor.
(2) The Terran has to wall otherwise early Zealot Stalker Probe pressure can do massive damage.
(3) The wall becomes a very real liability very quickly. 3gate Stargate punishes tech builds so hard, and you end up losing two SD's, a rax, and probably your reactor.
(4) This particular army composition is not very strong until it reaches a certain number and combination of units. The composition is strongest when set up in a contain which includes bunkers, towers, etc ... Keeping the fight in the middle of the map or at the Terran's front door will slow this push so incredibly badly.
(5) Stargate units pose the greatest threat, from what I've seen. Tanks cannot kill Zealots, and you will not have enough DPS to deal with the GS'd Zealots and VRs. You may even throw a phoenix or two in the mix the GB the tanks. Open 1gate Stargate on maps where you are expecting the 111 all-in.
From a person's perspective The classic rebuttal to a post like mine is to grab some pro replay that supports your argument and say, "Look, if MC cannot do it, how do you expect us to do it?" Unless you're at the pro level you're playing scrubs like me and yourself. They will mess up. You can force them to mess up. You can screw with their plan by pressuring, flanking, setting up ambushes, or doing anything except waiting at your base for the tide of death to sweep you away.
It's really not your concern how, when or if the pros figure it out. What is your concern is how you're going to deal with it. Now, I realize that the vast majority of the metagame on the ladder in SC2 is just pro copycatting, and that is why referencing pros is so prevalant, but don't use the fact that they're struggling as a crutch for your own game.
I struggle versus tons of stuff and get great enjoyment out of troll-raging imbaimba ezmode, but when it truly comes down to it, we choose to play SC2 and have to deal with balance issues. Sometimes we get the nerfs we want, sometimes we get the buffs we want, but these tweaks will never address fundamental game-design issues that are at the heart of a lot of these debates.
Actually I enjoy watching pro matches far more than playing on ladder. And since watching protoss gosus get owned by an a-move build is no fun at all, it is my concern.
Calling this all-in an a+move victory is just a slap in the face.
No it is not. Compared to all ins which actually require great execution and micro (like blink stalkers of one base), this is easy mode.
On August 24 2011 00:57 Yaotzin wrote: Eh I like templar. They're just not supposed to be rushed to, nothing wrong with that.
Collo tree is "designed" to take it down, as it offers AoE, detection, and immortals to soak tank hits. Collos are too late for this though.
Hmmm, yeah your right. Im wrong. Also HT form archons, so thats fair there. Although I dont get why storm doesnt remove cloak like all the other spellcasters AoE's.
On that note. I think the price/performance/build time of the immortal is a bit mismanaged. What a wonky unit.
It's not the magic bullet to this problem, and it's a whole can of worms, but: It would huge difference to templar builds if feedback could hit undetected units.
On August 24 2011 01:01 Resistentialism wrote: It's not the magic bullet to this problem, and it's a whole can of worms, but: It would huge difference to templar builds if feedback could hit undetected units.
That wouldnt solve the problem since the banshees wont die and the raven probably wouldnt either.
On August 23 2011 22:51 momonami5 wrote: why is people crying about 1-1-1 now it's been a year and this build has not been changed in anyway. the units used in 1-1-1 have not changed at all in patches. Like many zerg players who started facing new 2 rax, or new blue flame builds, will have to adapt, most players will look to the pro's for new builds. If pro's have no new builds everyone crys nerf? wth.
Protoss got nerfed is what changed. The usual responses to a greedy build like 1/1/1 got gutted.
People do have a new build, it just dies if the Terran scouts you and responds correctly.
What changes did protoss go through that affected their ability to hold the 1/1/1?
Not saying there arent any, i just cant remember them.
Certainly they're not talking about the Flux Veins ... That would be outrageous. They are certainly not talking about the KA nerf, because that would also be silly. They are probably just talking about the classic 4gate all-in (warpgate timing).
From a Terran's perspective: (1) Tech builds are super greedy and are almost always countered by early aggression from the Toss. In this particular build, the Terran typically rushes for a reactor.
(2) The Terran has to wall otherwise early Zealot Stalker Probe pressure can do massive damage.
(3) The wall becomes a very real liability very quickly. 3gate Stargate punishes tech builds so hard, and you end up losing two SD's, a rax, and probably your reactor.
(4) This particular army composition is not very strong until it reaches a certain number and combination of units. The composition is strongest when set up in a contain which includes bunkers, towers, etc ... Keeping the fight in the middle of the map or at the Terran's front door will slow this push so incredibly badly.
(5) Stargate units pose the greatest threat, from what I've seen. Tanks cannot kill Zealots, and you will not have enough DPS to deal with the GS'd Zealots and VRs. You may even throw a phoenix or two in the mix the GB the tanks. Open 1gate Stargate on maps where you are expecting the 111 all-in.
From a person's perspective The classic rebuttal to a post like mine is to grab some pro replay that supports your argument and say, "Look, if MC cannot do it, how do you expect us to do it?" Unless you're at the pro level you're playing scrubs like me and yourself. They will mess up. You can force them to mess up. You can screw with their plan by pressuring, flanking, setting up ambushes, or doing anything except waiting at your base for the tide of death to sweep you away.
It's really not your concern how, when or if the pros figure it out. What is your concern is how you're going to deal with it. Now, I realize that the vast majority of the metagame on the ladder in SC2 is just pro copycatting, and that is why referencing pros is so prevalant, but don't use the fact that they're struggling as a crutch for your own game.
I struggle versus tons of stuff and get great enjoyment out of troll-raging imbaimba ezmode, but when it truly comes down to it, we choose to play SC2 and have to deal with balance issues. Sometimes we get the nerfs we want, sometimes we get the buffs we want, but these tweaks will never address fundamental game-design issues that are at the heart of a lot of these debates.
Actually I enjoy watching pro matches far more than playing on ladder. And since watching protoss gosus get owned by an a-move build is no fun at all, it is my concern.
Calling this all-in an a+move victory is just a slap in the face.
No it is not. Compared to all ins which actually require great execution and micro (like blink stalkers of one base), this is easy mode.
*genuine chuckle*
I definitely agree with this one. it is very easy to pull off compared to other all ins. and its painful when you're on the receiving end of this
On August 23 2011 22:51 momonami5 wrote: why is people crying about 1-1-1 now it's been a year and this build has not been changed in anyway. the units used in 1-1-1 have not changed at all in patches. Like many zerg players who started facing new 2 rax, or new blue flame builds, will have to adapt, most players will look to the pro's for new builds. If pro's have no new builds everyone crys nerf? wth.
Protoss got nerfed is what changed. The usual responses to a greedy build like 1/1/1 got gutted.
People do have a new build, it just dies if the Terran scouts you and responds correctly.
What changes did protoss go through that affected their ability to hold the 1/1/1?
Not saying there arent any, i just cant remember them.
Certainly they're not talking about the Flux Veins ... That would be outrageous. They are certainly not talking about the KA nerf, because that would also be silly. They are probably just talking about the classic 4gate all-in (warpgate timing).
From a Terran's perspective: (1) Tech builds are super greedy and are almost always countered by early aggression from the Toss. In this particular build, the Terran typically rushes for a reactor.
(2) The Terran has to wall otherwise early Zealot Stalker Probe pressure can do massive damage.
(3) The wall becomes a very real liability very quickly. 3gate Stargate punishes tech builds so hard, and you end up losing two SD's, a rax, and probably your reactor.
(4) This particular army composition is not very strong until it reaches a certain number and combination of units. The composition is strongest when set up in a contain which includes bunkers, towers, etc ... Keeping the fight in the middle of the map or at the Terran's front door will slow this push so incredibly badly.
(5) Stargate units pose the greatest threat, from what I've seen. Tanks cannot kill Zealots, and you will not have enough DPS to deal with the GS'd Zealots and VRs. You may even throw a phoenix or two in the mix the GB the tanks. Open 1gate Stargate on maps where you are expecting the 111 all-in.
From a person's perspective The classic rebuttal to a post like mine is to grab some pro replay that supports your argument and say, "Look, if MC cannot do it, how do you expect us to do it?" Unless you're at the pro level you're playing scrubs like me and yourself. They will mess up. You can force them to mess up. You can screw with their plan by pressuring, flanking, setting up ambushes, or doing anything except waiting at your base for the tide of death to sweep you away.
It's really not your concern how, when or if the pros figure it out. What is your concern is how you're going to deal with it. Now, I realize that the vast majority of the metagame on the ladder in SC2 is just pro copycatting, and that is why referencing pros is so prevalant, but don't use the fact that they're struggling as a crutch for your own game.
I struggle versus tons of stuff and get great enjoyment out of troll-raging imbaimba ezmode, but when it truly comes down to it, we choose to play SC2 and have to deal with balance issues. Sometimes we get the nerfs we want, sometimes we get the buffs we want, but these tweaks will never address fundamental game-design issues that are at the heart of a lot of these debates.
Actually I enjoy watching pro matches far more than playing on ladder. And since watching protoss gosus get owned by an a-move build is no fun at all, it is my concern.
Calling this all-in an a+move victory is just a slap in the face.
No it is not. Compared to all ins which actually require great execution and micro (like blink stalkers of one base), this is easy mode.
*genuine chuckle*
Well then try playing 1 base blink stalker against terran, and awe at the micro you have to do, compared to the terran, in order to beat him.
Man. Terrans rushing up lamps are really stupid *giggles*. Sorry, I couldn't resist myself.
On a more serious note, this is a huge issue. The biggest being that you have to prepare for cloak. If you don't, its a coin flip at best. The terran could always scout you not getting detection and go for it as well. If we really need to adjust anything, I think giving the cloak a 20 or 40 sec longer research time could solve a lot of issues in this matchup.
Nice topic. I really like the way you laid it out. Makes it a lot easier for me to explain it to people who doesn't understand the issue.
EPT
