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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 24 2011 01:03 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 01:01 Resistentialism wrote:
It's not the magic bullet to this problem, and it's a whole can of worms, but: It would huge difference to templar builds if feedback could hit undetected units. That wouldnt solve the problem since the banshees wont die and the raven probably wouldnt either.
No, but the Banshees would be out of energy, so no more cloaking for them.
One of the most painful things about 1/1/1 is that you can very easily get your observer sniped when there's a raven there. Even if you manage to take down the marines and tanks, there are now 2+ cloaked banshees in your base killing your probes. That economic hit can be the thing that allows Terran to overpower you on the second wave.
I really wish this thread hadn't grown to these proportions. Every - single - terran I've met on the ladder in the past two days has done this build, while I'd see it maybe one out of six games before. Yippee.
PvP seems to be the only matchup I win anymore^^
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On August 24 2011 01:04 JelleSlaets wrote:Here are some examples of things you can try. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIKwtI2lTmU
First one HuK manages to get the most baller force fields ever and the marines in front dont even get to kill the immortals. That being said. Thats what the current defense strategy pro's are executing is.
Second one I didnt want, someone else can come in and talk about it.
On the survival one terrans get siege mode faster than that sometimes so you can't just find them with no siege mode all the time. It does buy you time though. Another part of the current strategy.
I did once make a warp prism for laughs against this and warped in zealots and took out the tech lab researching. Oh man was that guy angry, no GG at the end.
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On August 24 2011 00:58 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 00:52 IVN wrote:On August 24 2011 00:31 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 23 2011 23:54 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 23:38 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 23 2011 23:18 Deadlyfish wrote:On August 23 2011 22:54 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:51 momonami5 wrote:
why is people crying about 1-1-1 now it's been a year and this build has not been changed in anyway. the units used in 1-1-1 have not changed at all in patches. Like many zerg players who started facing new 2 rax, or new blue flame builds, will have to adapt, most players will look to the pro's for new builds. If pro's have no new builds everyone crys nerf? wth. Protoss got nerfed is what changed. The usual responses to a greedy build like 1/1/1 got gutted. People do have a new build, it just dies if the Terran scouts you and responds correctly. What changes did protoss go through that affected their ability to hold the 1/1/1? Not saying there arent any, i just cant remember them. Certainly they're not talking about the Flux Veins ... That would be outrageous. They are certainly not talking about the KA nerf, because that would also be silly. They are probably just talking about the classic 4gate all-in (warpgate timing). From a Terran's perspective: (1) Tech builds are super greedy and are almost always countered by early aggression from the Toss. In this particular build, the Terran typically rushes for a reactor. (2) The Terran has to wall otherwise early Zealot Stalker Probe pressure can do massive damage. (3) The wall becomes a very real liability very quickly. 3gate Stargate punishes tech builds so hard, and you end up losing two SD's, a rax, and probably your reactor. (4) This particular army composition is not very strong until it reaches a certain number and combination of units. The composition is strongest when set up in a contain which includes bunkers, towers, etc ... Keeping the fight in the middle of the map or at the Terran's front door will slow this push so incredibly badly.(5) Stargate units pose the greatest threat, from what I've seen. Tanks cannot kill Zealots, and you will not have enough DPS to deal with the GS'd Zealots and VRs. You may even throw a phoenix or two in the mix the GB the tanks. Open 1gate Stargate on maps where you are expecting the 111 all-in. From a person's perspectiveThe classic rebuttal to a post like mine is to grab some pro replay that supports your argument and say, "Look, if MC cannot do it, how do you expect us to do it?" Unless you're at the pro level you're playing scrubs like me and yourself. They will mess up. You can force them to mess up. You can screw with their plan by pressuring, flanking, setting up ambushes, or doing anything except waiting at your base for the tide of death to sweep you away. It's really not your concern how, when or if the pros figure it out. What is your concern is how you're going to deal with it. Now, I realize that the vast majority of the metagame on the ladder in SC2 is just pro copycatting, and that is why referencing pros is so prevalant, but don't use the fact that they're struggling as a crutch for your own game. I struggle versus tons of stuff and get great enjoyment out of troll-raging imbaimba ezmode, but when it truly comes down to it, we choose to play SC2 and have to deal with balance issues. Sometimes we get the nerfs we want, sometimes we get the buffs we want, but these tweaks will never address fundamental game-design issues that are at the heart of a lot of these debates. Actually I enjoy watching pro matches far more than playing on ladder. And since watching protoss gosus get owned by an a-move build is no fun at all, it is my concern. Calling this all-in an a+move victory is just a slap in the face. No it is not. Compared to all ins which actually require great execution and micro (like blink stalkers of one base), this is easy mode. *genuine chuckle*
TimeSpiral's posts in this thread have either been a) about nothing in particular b) nicely formatted with no relevant content. Though I agree that there is nothing fantastic about one base-blink play, you taking offense ("slap in the face") to the 1-1-1 being called an A-move victory is also comical.
We get it TimeSpiral. You play Terran. You don't like infestors. You didn't like KA. You thought the EMP nerf was significant and game-changing. You (self-proclaimed) play at low diamond level. Instead of you championing your "wait and see" philosophy regarding the 1-1-1, perhaps you should apply the same restraint when complaining about TvZ?
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I have an idea.
What about a 1gt FE, into forge and blink, + 3 more gates?
What I'm thinking about is only building blink stalkers and 1 cannon per mineral line, so that the cloakshees can be spotted and taken out by blink stalkers.
Obviously one would have to make many blink stalkers and engage several times, in order to try to decimate the marines force and make the terran use his PDD. One engagement at terran's natural, one in the middle of the map, and the last one at one own's natural. While constantly warping in more blink stalkers.
Obviously this is a very micro intensive build. And since stalkers always leave you with a mineral surplus, one could add more cannons.
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On August 24 2011 01:15 IVN wrote:
I have an idea.
What about a 1gt FE, into forge and blink, + 3 more gates?
What I'm thinking about is only building blink stalkers and 1 cannon per mineral line, so that the cloakshees can be spotted and taken out by blink stalkers.
Obviously one would have to make many blink stalkers and engage several times, in order to try to decimate the marines force and make the terran use his PDD. One engagement at terran's natural, one in the middle of the map, and the last one at one own's natural. While constantly warping in more blink stalkers.
Obviously this is a very micro intensive build. And since stalkers always leave you with a mineral surplus, one could add more cannons.
Its good against the non scv version. Not so great with like 20 SCV's right there.
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On August 24 2011 01:13 Medrea wrote:First one HuK manages to get the most baller force fields ever and the marines in front dont even get to kill the immortals. That being said. Thats what the current defense strategy pro's are executing is. Second one I didnt want, someone else can come in and talk about it. On the survival one terrans get siege mode faster than that sometimes so you can't just find them with no siege mode all the time. It does buy you time though. Another part of the current strategy. I did once make a warp prism for laughs against this and warped in zealots and took out the tech lab researching. Oh man was that guy angry, no GG at the end.
Super bad 111 
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On August 24 2011 01:18 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 01:15 IVN wrote:
I have an idea.
What about a 1gt FE, into forge and blink, + 3 more gates?
What I'm thinking about is only building blink stalkers and 1 cannon per mineral line, so that the cloakshees can be spotted and taken out by blink stalkers.
Obviously one would have to make many blink stalkers and engage several times, in order to try to decimate the marines force and make the terran use his PDD. One engagement at terran's natural, one in the middle of the map, and the last one at one own's natural. While constantly warping in more blink stalkers.
Obviously this is a very micro intensive build. And since stalkers always leave you with a mineral surplus, one could add more cannons. Its good against the non scv version. Not so great with like 20 SCV's right there.
Why not? I think it would be even better with all the SCVs there. Remember - I'm obviously pulling these numbers out of my ass - if you have 10-15 blink stalkers by the time he comes down his ramp, he would have to siege up every time you engage, because blink stalkers can never be owned by rines and banshees. And if the SCVs are there, this means that for every second that you can stall, you get a much greater force compared to the terran (2 base vs 1 base + pulled SCVs).
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On August 24 2011 01:06 IVN wrote:
Well then try playing 1 base blink stalker against terran, and awe at the micro you have to do, compared to the terran, in order to beat him.
I could care less how hard it is to beat you or your gold league opponents. Only games at the highest levels are relevant.
Have you watched the replay of the MC vs Puma game on XNC from the most recent IEM and from Puma's perspective?
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On August 24 2011 01:23 somadbro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 01:06 IVN wrote:
Well then try playing 1 base blink stalker against terran, and awe at the micro you have to do, compared to the terran, in order to beat him.
I could care less how hard it is to beat you or your gold league opponents. Only games at the highest levels are relevant. Have you watched the replay of the MC vs Puma game on XNC from the most recent IEM and from Puma's perspective?
Yeah, ultra easy. Hands down the easiest all in in the game.
Even easier than 4gt - by far - and thats saying a lot.
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On August 24 2011 01:23 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 01:18 Medrea wrote:On August 24 2011 01:15 IVN wrote:
I have an idea.
What about a 1gt FE, into forge and blink, + 3 more gates?
What I'm thinking about is only building blink stalkers and 1 cannon per mineral line, so that the cloakshees can be spotted and taken out by blink stalkers.
Obviously one would have to make many blink stalkers and engage several times, in order to try to decimate the marines force and make the terran use his PDD. One engagement at terran's natural, one in the middle of the map, and the last one at one own's natural. While constantly warping in more blink stalkers.
Obviously this is a very micro intensive build. And since stalkers always leave you with a mineral surplus, one could add more cannons. Its good against the non scv version. Not so great with like 20 SCV's right there. Why not? I think it would be even better with all the SCVs there. Remember - I'm obviously pulling these numbers out of my ass - if you have 10-15 blink stalkers by the time he comes down his ramp, he would have to siege up every time you engage, because blink stalkers can never be owned by rines and banshees. And if the SCVs are there, this means that for every second that you can stall, you get a much greater force compared to the terran (2 base vs 1 base + pulled SCVs).
Too much shit to shoot. Stalkers arent none for being baller in the damage department.
Also 300 minerals in cannons that aren't helping in the fight is a real drag. When going stalkers minerals are key.
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If the terran scans and sees cannons and twillight, he should finish cloak and start picking away at gateways and pylons in the corners of your base.
That's the only major change necessary. He doesn't even have to stop producing for the push; just realize what's up once he pushes out and head back to his base to siege up and expand while harassing with cloaked banshees.
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On August 24 2011 01:23 somadbro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 01:06 IVN wrote:
Well then try playing 1 base blink stalker against terran, and awe at the micro you have to do, compared to the terran, in order to beat him.
I could care less how hard it is to beat you or your gold league opponents. Only games at the highest levels are relevant. Have you watched the replay of the MC vs Puma game on XNC from the most recent IEM and from Puma's perspective?
Are you trying to make his point? Puma does nothing except focus fire sentries once, after his tanks shoot immortals a couple times. At the same time his marines are being chomped on by zealots and he isn't stutter stepping away. It's pretty damn close to a-move.
I was actually expecting something else since you specifically mentioned it yet that was wholly unimpressive from Puma - who is actually a good player.
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On August 24 2011 01:14 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 00:58 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 24 2011 00:52 IVN wrote:On August 24 2011 00:31 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 23 2011 23:54 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 23:38 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 23 2011 23:18 Deadlyfish wrote:On August 23 2011 22:54 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:51 momonami5 wrote:
why is people crying about 1-1-1 now it's been a year and this build has not been changed in anyway. the units used in 1-1-1 have not changed at all in patches. Like many zerg players who started facing new 2 rax, or new blue flame builds, will have to adapt, most players will look to the pro's for new builds. If pro's have no new builds everyone crys nerf? wth. Protoss got nerfed is what changed. The usual responses to a greedy build like 1/1/1 got gutted. People do have a new build, it just dies if the Terran scouts you and responds correctly. What changes did protoss go through that affected their ability to hold the 1/1/1? Not saying there arent any, i just cant remember them. Certainly they're not talking about the Flux Veins ... That would be outrageous. They are certainly not talking about the KA nerf, because that would also be silly. They are probably just talking about the classic 4gate all-in (warpgate timing). From a Terran's perspective: (1) Tech builds are super greedy and are almost always countered by early aggression from the Toss. In this particular build, the Terran typically rushes for a reactor. (2) The Terran has to wall otherwise early Zealot Stalker Probe pressure can do massive damage. (3) The wall becomes a very real liability very quickly. 3gate Stargate punishes tech builds so hard, and you end up losing two SD's, a rax, and probably your reactor. (4) This particular army composition is not very strong until it reaches a certain number and combination of units. The composition is strongest when set up in a contain which includes bunkers, towers, etc ... Keeping the fight in the middle of the map or at the Terran's front door will slow this push so incredibly badly.(5) Stargate units pose the greatest threat, from what I've seen. Tanks cannot kill Zealots, and you will not have enough DPS to deal with the GS'd Zealots and VRs. You may even throw a phoenix or two in the mix the GB the tanks. Open 1gate Stargate on maps where you are expecting the 111 all-in. From a person's perspectiveThe classic rebuttal to a post like mine is to grab some pro replay that supports your argument and say, "Look, if MC cannot do it, how do you expect us to do it?" Unless you're at the pro level you're playing scrubs like me and yourself. They will mess up. You can force them to mess up. You can screw with their plan by pressuring, flanking, setting up ambushes, or doing anything except waiting at your base for the tide of death to sweep you away. It's really not your concern how, when or if the pros figure it out. What is your concern is how you're going to deal with it. Now, I realize that the vast majority of the metagame on the ladder in SC2 is just pro copycatting, and that is why referencing pros is so prevalant, but don't use the fact that they're struggling as a crutch for your own game. I struggle versus tons of stuff and get great enjoyment out of troll-raging imbaimba ezmode, but when it truly comes down to it, we choose to play SC2 and have to deal with balance issues. Sometimes we get the nerfs we want, sometimes we get the buffs we want, but these tweaks will never address fundamental game-design issues that are at the heart of a lot of these debates. Actually I enjoy watching pro matches far more than playing on ladder. And since watching protoss gosus get owned by an a-move build is no fun at all, it is my concern. Calling this all-in an a+move victory is just a slap in the face. No it is not. Compared to all ins which actually require great execution and micro (like blink stalkers of one base), this is easy mode. *genuine chuckle* TimeSpiral's posts in this thread have either been a) about nothing in particular b) nicely formatted with no relevant content. Though I agree that there is nothing fantastic about one base-blink play, you taking offense ("slap in the face") to the 1-1-1 being called an A-move victory is also comical. We get it TimeSpiral. You play Terran. You don't like infestors. You didn't like KA. You thought the EMP nerf was significant and game-changing. You (self-proclaimed) play at low diamond level. Instead of you championing your "wait and see" philosophy regarding the 1-1-1, perhaps you should apply the same restraint when complaining about TvZ?
Obligatory Character Rebuttal
+ Show Spoiler [Doesn't everyone enjoy good form…] +I'm not above complaining. Everyone likes to complain to some extent. And oh boy, SC2 complaining is among the best in the business!
I've brought a few things to the table in this discussion, but I mean overall I really feel like this argument is not really going anywhere. We're on a forum. Everyone's mind is already made up. So who are we trying to convince here? No one is going to concede to your brilliantly outlined logic (not you specifically, QTIP).
This thread is so fast moving, and people following their own sub-threads, that any real discussion points are swept under the rug by MULE / Marine imba posts.
I'm flattered that you're so familiar with my positions on various aspects of this game! You are right on the money, basically. And if I was trying to earn some political capital, for some reason, I would try and be consistent with my nerd-rage-whine-trolling and champion the wait and see for everything (which I've done a few times, I think the God Pen is a pretty bad thing sometimes), but I'm not.
Sometimes I chime in, if I'm feeling whimsical, sometimes its serious, sometimes its inappropriate. Really, who cares?
Relevant Response to the 111 All-In versus Protoss
+ Show Spoiler [Why bog things down with long boring,…] +You claim I have not contributed anything of substance. I thought the response I'm going to post below was fairly substantial. It could all be wrong, sure, but I definitely thought it was a relevant contribution. From a Terran's perspective:
(1) Tech builds are super greedy and are almost always countered by early aggression from the Toss. In this particular build, the Terran typically rushes for a reactor.
(2) The Terran has to wall otherwise early Zealot Stalker Probe pressure can do massive damage.
(3) The wall becomes a very real liability very quickly. 3gate Stargate punishes tech builds so hard, and you end up losing two SD's, a rax, and probably your reactor.
(4) This particular army composition is not very strong until it reaches a certain number and combination of units. The composition is strongest when set up in a contain which includes bunkers, towers, etc ... Keeping the fight in the middle of the map or at the Terran's front door will slow this push so incredibly badly.
(5) Stargate units pose the greatest threat, from what I've seen. Tanks cannot kill Zealots, and you will not have enough DPS to deal with the GS'd Zealots and VRs. You may even throw a phoenix or two in the mix the GB the tanks. Open 1gate Stargate on maps where you are expecting the 111 all-in. Are these not relevant points to this discussion?
I've no problem with self-proclaiming my skill-level. The ladder feels too "committal" for me. I'm not down with that anymore, like I used to be back in the good ol' days.
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On August 24 2011 01:25 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 01:23 somadbro wrote:On August 24 2011 01:06 IVN wrote:
Well then try playing 1 base blink stalker against terran, and awe at the micro you have to do, compared to the terran, in order to beat him.
I could care less how hard it is to beat you or your gold league opponents. Only games at the highest levels are relevant. Have you watched the replay of the MC vs Puma game on XNC from the most recent IEM and from Puma's perspective? Yeah, ultra easy. Hands down the easiest all in in the game. Even easier than 4gt - by far - and thats saying a lot.
what's his sustained apm in the minute right before the push reaches MC's base?
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On August 24 2011 01:28 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 01:23 IVN wrote:On August 24 2011 01:18 Medrea wrote:On August 24 2011 01:15 IVN wrote:
I have an idea.
What about a 1gt FE, into forge and blink, + 3 more gates?
What I'm thinking about is only building blink stalkers and 1 cannon per mineral line, so that the cloakshees can be spotted and taken out by blink stalkers.
Obviously one would have to make many blink stalkers and engage several times, in order to try to decimate the marines force and make the terran use his PDD. One engagement at terran's natural, one in the middle of the map, and the last one at one own's natural. While constantly warping in more blink stalkers.
Obviously this is a very micro intensive build. And since stalkers always leave you with a mineral surplus, one could add more cannons. Its good against the non scv version. Not so great with like 20 SCV's right there. Why not? I think it would be even better with all the SCVs there. Remember - I'm obviously pulling these numbers out of my ass - if you have 10-15 blink stalkers by the time he comes down his ramp, he would have to siege up every time you engage, because blink stalkers can never be owned by rines and banshees. And if the SCVs are there, this means that for every second that you can stall, you get a much greater force compared to the terran (2 base vs 1 base + pulled SCVs). Too much shit to shoot. Stalkers arent none for being baller in the damage department. Also 300 minerals in cannons that aren't helping in the fight is a real drag. When going stalkers minerals are key.
Well on 2 base with only 2 gases, you will have a huge excess of minerals.
And I know that stalkers have abysmal DPS, but with blink they are the most mobile unit in the game, and the unit with the highest retention rate. And if you look at the terran composition, it is immobile as fuck. So the logical conclusion would be to engage with something fast and retreat. Chipping away at his units and buying time so you can outproduce him.
On August 24 2011 01:34 somadbro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 01:25 IVN wrote:On August 24 2011 01:23 somadbro wrote:On August 24 2011 01:06 IVN wrote:
Well then try playing 1 base blink stalker against terran, and awe at the micro you have to do, compared to the terran, in order to beat him.
I could care less how hard it is to beat you or your gold league opponents. Only games at the highest levels are relevant. Have you watched the replay of the MC vs Puma game on XNC from the most recent IEM and from Puma's perspective? Yeah, ultra easy. Hands down the easiest all in in the game. Even easier than 4gt - by far - and thats saying a lot. what's his sustained apm in the minute right before the push reaches MC's base?
That is not important. Many players spam APM like crazy, w/o even doing anything. If the APM tab was any indicator of real, sensible actions, Goody would never win a game. (because his opponents always have 2-3x more APM)
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On August 24 2011 01:34 somadbro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 01:25 IVN wrote:On August 24 2011 01:23 somadbro wrote:On August 24 2011 01:06 IVN wrote:
Well then try playing 1 base blink stalker against terran, and awe at the micro you have to do, compared to the terran, in order to beat him.
I could care less how hard it is to beat you or your gold league opponents. Only games at the highest levels are relevant. Have you watched the replay of the MC vs Puma game on XNC from the most recent IEM and from Puma's perspective? Yeah, ultra easy. Hands down the easiest all in in the game. Even easier than 4gt - by far - and thats saying a lot. what's his sustained apm in the minute right before the push reaches MC's base?
APM? Seriously?
Pros spam. A lot. Their APM means fuckall. Look at what they actually do. Sometimes it's impressive, sometimes it's not. You could've picked far, far better examples. Someone like MVP would put that shitty allin of his to shame.
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On August 24 2011 01:29 Resistentialism wrote:
If the terran scans and sees cannons and twillight, he should finish cloak and start picking away at gateways and pylons in the corners of your base.
That's the only major change necessary. He doesn't even have to stop producing for the push; just realize what's up once he pushes out and head back to his base to siege up and expand while harassing with cloaked banshees.
Obviously the buildings would have to be placed around the cannons. Remember, cannons have a lot larger detection than attack range.
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On August 24 2011 01:14 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 00:58 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 24 2011 00:52 IVN wrote:On August 24 2011 00:31 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 23 2011 23:54 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 23:38 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 23 2011 23:18 Deadlyfish wrote:On August 23 2011 22:54 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:51 momonami5 wrote:
why is people crying about 1-1-1 now it's been a year and this build has not been changed in anyway. the units used in 1-1-1 have not changed at all in patches. Like many zerg players who started facing new 2 rax, or new blue flame builds, will have to adapt, most players will look to the pro's for new builds. If pro's have no new builds everyone crys nerf? wth. Protoss got nerfed is what changed. The usual responses to a greedy build like 1/1/1 got gutted. People do have a new build, it just dies if the Terran scouts you and responds correctly. What changes did protoss go through that affected their ability to hold the 1/1/1? Not saying there arent any, i just cant remember them. Certainly they're not talking about the Flux Veins ... That would be outrageous. They are certainly not talking about the KA nerf, because that would also be silly. They are probably just talking about the classic 4gate all-in (warpgate timing). From a Terran's perspective: (1) Tech builds are super greedy and are almost always countered by early aggression from the Toss. In this particular build, the Terran typically rushes for a reactor. (2) The Terran has to wall otherwise early Zealot Stalker Probe pressure can do massive damage. (3) The wall becomes a very real liability very quickly. 3gate Stargate punishes tech builds so hard, and you end up losing two SD's, a rax, and probably your reactor. (4) This particular army composition is not very strong until it reaches a certain number and combination of units. The composition is strongest when set up in a contain which includes bunkers, towers, etc ... Keeping the fight in the middle of the map or at the Terran's front door will slow this push so incredibly badly.(5) Stargate units pose the greatest threat, from what I've seen. Tanks cannot kill Zealots, and you will not have enough DPS to deal with the GS'd Zealots and VRs. You may even throw a phoenix or two in the mix the GB the tanks. Open 1gate Stargate on maps where you are expecting the 111 all-in. From a person's perspectiveThe classic rebuttal to a post like mine is to grab some pro replay that supports your argument and say, "Look, if MC cannot do it, how do you expect us to do it?" Unless you're at the pro level you're playing scrubs like me and yourself. They will mess up. You can force them to mess up. You can screw with their plan by pressuring, flanking, setting up ambushes, or doing anything except waiting at your base for the tide of death to sweep you away. It's really not your concern how, when or if the pros figure it out. What is your concern is how you're going to deal with it. Now, I realize that the vast majority of the metagame on the ladder in SC2 is just pro copycatting, and that is why referencing pros is so prevalant, but don't use the fact that they're struggling as a crutch for your own game. I struggle versus tons of stuff and get great enjoyment out of troll-raging imbaimba ezmode, but when it truly comes down to it, we choose to play SC2 and have to deal with balance issues. Sometimes we get the nerfs we want, sometimes we get the buffs we want, but these tweaks will never address fundamental game-design issues that are at the heart of a lot of these debates. Actually I enjoy watching pro matches far more than playing on ladder. And since watching protoss gosus get owned by an a-move build is no fun at all, it is my concern. Calling this all-in an a+move victory is just a slap in the face. No it is not. Compared to all ins which actually require great execution and micro (like blink stalkers of one base), this is easy mode. *genuine chuckle* TimeSpiral's posts in this thread have either been a) about nothing in particular b) nicely formatted with no relevant content. Though I agree that there is nothing fantastic about one base-blink play, you taking offense ("slap in the face") to the 1-1-1 being called an A-move victory is also comical. We get it TimeSpiral. You play Terran. You don't like infestors. You didn't like KA. You thought the EMP nerf was significant and game-changing. You (self-proclaimed) play at low diamond level. Instead of you championing your "wait and see" philosophy regarding the 1-1-1, perhaps you should apply the same restraint when complaining about TvZ?
Not that it particularly matters...but I think time spirla's post is one of the most mature and practical approaches here. Instead of idiotic balance whine. And by the way, I'm a high masters random player so you can stfu before you start talking about bias.
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Really, this thread is a testament on why Balance threads are useless. Basically it just boils down to people just having their mind set on their idea with no useful discussion.One of the particular gems that I love about this threads are:
A:¨X build/unit/unit composition is Imba¨
B:"But I saw C, D and E beat it by using this"
A:"Pshhh *insert something about their opponents not being perfect and thus this holds no value*"
*Nobody ever changes their mind*
I'm up for a good discussion on how to solve the problem with our current tools, but this is just a worthless discussion. And yeah I realize that I say this a lot but in the end we have to stop relying on Blizzard to give us solutions. They will eventually stop patching one day
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On August 24 2011 01:30 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 01:23 somadbro wrote:On August 24 2011 01:06 IVN wrote:
Well then try playing 1 base blink stalker against terran, and awe at the micro you have to do, compared to the terran, in order to beat him.
I could care less how hard it is to beat you or your gold league opponents. Only games at the highest levels are relevant. Have you watched the replay of the MC vs Puma game on XNC from the most recent IEM and from Puma's perspective? Are you trying to make his point? Puma does nothing except focus fire sentries once, after his tanks shoot immortals a couple times. At the same time his marines are being chomped on by zealots and he isn't stutter stepping away. It's pretty damn close to a-move. I was actually expecting something else since you specifically mentioned it yet that was wholly unimpressive from Puma - who is actually a good player.
either you didn't watch the replay, didn't watch enough of it, or you don't actually know what to look for.
the point where the actual engagement occurs is not the entire execution of the build by any means. when puma finally 'engages' MC's army and does what you mentioned, his APM is the lowest it is at all game. that's the easy part of the build, when protoss has finally committed to attacking into your siege line.
blink stalkers is impressive at the point where the protoss is blinking each stalker back individually before losing hull damage or dieing.
terrans don't have unit mechanics that allow for that sort of micro, except for the case of very small engagements.
usually, the impressive part of a terran push is about the positioning and timing, and specifically in the case of this 1-1-1 all-in, it's both. the timing - once widespread - becomes less impressive, but the positioning and unit control are still jaw-dropping when done right and at a high level, as puma does in that game. definitely not in any way shape or form what I would call 'unimpressive.'
watch the replay again, and several times over if you have to, and you will understand what I mean.
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