Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 73

On August 23 2011 08:29 IVN wrote:

The way I see it, the 111 push starts 2 or so mules after the mineral line has been saturated. How much is that? ~500 minerals worth of marines?

On August 23 2011 08:31 aksfjh wrote:


Only in Korea are Terrans actually dominating (or Koreans competing in foreign tournaments). Elsewhere, Terran is actually about even with everybody else. Too much of ANY nerf could completely tilt Terran to the negative end in and outside of Korea.

On August 23 2011 08:36 Yaotzin wrote:
Dunno but its beside the point. You don't nerf a fundamental aspect of the game like that to deal with a specific timing problem. The 1/1/1 composition is easy to deal with lategame, it's purely a timing issue. Solution is to slow Terran down, not nerf them permanently.

Nerfing mules would break tvz horribly it's so reliant on marines.

On August 23 2011 08:36 Yaotzin wrote:

Dunno but its beside the point. You don't nerf a fundamental aspect of the game like that to deal with a specific timing problem. The 1/1/1 composition is easy to deal with lategame, it's purely a timing issue. Solution is to slow Terran down, not nerf them permanently.

Nerfing mules would break tvz horribly it's so reliant on marines.

On August 23 2011 08:38 Resistentialism wrote:


What about my flightless orbital command idea to discourage rapidly mining out on one base, and then just 1basing your natural?

On August 23 2011 08:31 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Not only does it take away the ridiculous advantage Terran players have in 1 Base or Equal Base situations, when dealing with this particular push in discussion, many high level Korean players find that the number of Marines it what makes this push so potent, reduce the huge advantage in mineral income, and you reduce the number of marines at this stage in the game without re-balancing any single combat unit.

On August 23 2011 08:31 aksfjh wrote:


Only in Korea are Terrans actually dominating (or Koreans competing in foreign tournaments). Elsewhere, Terran is actually about even with everybody else. Too much of ANY nerf could completely tilt Terran to the negative end in and outside of Korea.

On August 23 2011 08:36 Yaotzin wrote:

Dunno but its beside the point. You don't nerf a fundamental aspect of the game like that to deal with a specific timing problem. The 1/1/1 composition is easy to deal with lategame, it's purely a timing issue. Solution is to slow Terran down, not nerf them permanently.

Nerfing mules would break tvz horribly it's so reliant on marines.

On August 23 2011 08:36 Yaotzin wrote:

Dunno but its beside the point. You don't nerf a fundamental aspect of the game like that to deal with a specific timing problem. The 1/1/1 composition is easy to deal with lategame, it's purely a timing issue. Solution is to slow Terran down, not nerf them permanently.

Nerfing mules would break tvz horribly it's so reliant on marines.

On August 23 2011 08:31 aksfjh wrote:


Only in Korea are Terrans actually dominating (or Koreans competing in foreign tournaments). Elsewhere, Terran is actually about even with everybody else. Too much of ANY nerf could completely tilt Terran to the negative end in and outside of Korea.

On August 23 2011 08:28 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Most "standard" Terran builds revolve around getting your OC at around 15 Supply, which, at that point in the game, Protoss/Zerg Macro mechanics have hardly kicked in enough to warrant complaint about super-saturation being necessary.

Furthermore, a nerf to MULEs regarding super-saturation does have a "side benefit" for Terrans. Since you won't be gaining a ridiculous income advantage due to MULEs, you won't mine out your bases as fast, meaning you'll be on equal footing for longer, which in turn leads to DIFFERENT timings evolving in the Terran metagame.

On August 23 2011 08:04 Toadvine wrote:


I tend to remember people who put some care into their posts. You should probably take that as a compliment. Not that I agreed at the time, but having a properly formulated opinion to disagree with is valuable in itself. By the way, I think a lot of Protosses were ready to accept some kind of nerf to KA, and there were reasonable suggestions floating around that thread. Of course, this was way too complicated for Blizzard's balance team, so they removed it completely.

I dunno, I tend to think of myself as a reasonable person. When Zergs were complaining about ZvP, I wouldn't tell them to l2p or use nydus moar. I don't even necessarily care about game balance in my own play, because I can 3 Gate VR a Terran doing a tech opening, and kill him 70% of the time, completely sidestepping the 1/1/1 issue in the first place.

What really pisses me off is the mongoloidness of it all. If Terrans were doing sick harassment with great micro and multitasking, expanding at good timings and playing with a well defined lategame in mind, I wouldn't complain that much if they were dominating Protoss left and right. Zergs are kind of doing that at the moment, and I still like watching high-level PvZ - and I'm completely in favor of letting that matchup work itself out.

But this, is just massing tons of stuff off 1 base, and then ramming it down the opponent's throat. It makes for absolutely terrible, disheartening games, and makes SC2 seem like a total joke of an aspiring e-sport. I've never played DotA, and have no idea about the rules, but the DotA2 finals were a lot more interesting and fun to watch than MC vs PuMa. The fact that such a garbage build can be so insanely effective just makes me dislike SC2 as a game, and start thinking that maybe it doesn't deserve all this hype, and this great scene; and that at it's core it's a fairly mediocre RTS riding on the coattails of its predecessor. And the fact that you seemingly can't nerf it without fucking up the whole game only serves to reinforce this idea. :/

On August 23 2011 08:40 Blazinghand wrote:
I agree. If you wanted to do some sort of nerf, it should be an early-game-only nerf. It could even be something as small as reducing marine range down to 4, and giving them an upgrade from the tech lab that brings it back to 5 range-- this would severely cut into the "marines scaling hard" factor since they won't be able to have as many shoot at once, and make the upgrade cheap (50/50) but take a long time (let's say, 120 seconds).

This way, if you want your ranged marines, you need to have a tech lab on a rax for 4 production cycles! That would probably put a pretty solid damper on the 1/1/1

On the other hand, maybe it's still possible that a metagame shift could address this?

On August 23 2011 08:40 Bagi wrote:

Terran is not automatically ahead in equal base situations. You can't just say "hey, he's mining more minerals because of mules, he must be ahead". Neither is it reasonable to expect terrans to expand at the same rate as the other races.

Mules are the terrans macro boost, the "big thing" kinda like spawn larva or chronoboost/warpgates. All of them are imbalanced on paper, but it somehow balances out in the end. What you are suggesting is gutting the terrans primary macro boost because you think it could fix the 1-1-1 and everything else would be just *fine and dandy*. I really don't think you understand how big of an impact your proposed changes would have.

On August 23 2011 07:38 Sabu113 wrote:
Timespiral I'm disappointed. You used to have such nice formatting and font choice to make up for the lack of content.

KA removal is nothing like whatever nerfs (?) were applied to the banshee. It's really amusing that at the height of complaining we were seeing balanced win %...

On August 23 2011 08:04 Toadvine wrote:


I tend to remember people who put some care into their posts. You should probably take that as a compliment. Not that I agreed at the time, but having a properly formulated opinion to disagree with is valuable in itself. By the way, I think a lot of Protosses were ready to accept some kind of nerf to KA, and there were reasonable suggestions floating around that thread. Of course, this was way too complicated for Blizzard's balance team, so they removed it completely.

I dunno, I tend to think of myself as a reasonable person. When Zergs were complaining about ZvP, I wouldn't tell them to l2p or use nydus moar. I don't even necessarily care about game balance in my own play, because I can 3 Gate VR a Terran doing a tech opening, and kill him 70% of the time, completely sidestepping the 1/1/1 issue in the first place.

What really pisses me off is the mongoloidness of it all. If Terrans were doing sick harassment with great micro and multitasking, expanding at good timings and playing with a well defined lategame in mind, I wouldn't complain that much if they were dominating Protoss left and right. Zergs are kind of doing that at the moment, and I still like watching high-level PvZ - and I'm completely in favor of letting that matchup work itself out.

But this, is just massing tons of stuff off 1 base, and then ramming it down the opponent's throat. It makes for absolutely terrible, disheartening games, and makes SC2 seem like a total joke of an aspiring e-sport. I've never played DotA, and have no idea about the rules, but the DotA2 finals were a lot more interesting and fun to watch than MC vs PuMa. The fact that such a garbage build can be so insanely effective just makes me dislike SC2 as a game, and start thinking that maybe it doesn't deserve all this hype, and this great scene; and that at it's core it's a fairly mediocre RTS riding on the coattails of its predecessor. And the fact that you seemingly can't nerf it without fucking up the whole game only serves to reinforce this idea. :/

On August 23 2011 08:43 Executor1 wrote:
Mutas have always been a problem in zvp im surprised they have never been touched, the answer to mass muta has always been "Kill them before they get there" or "make sure to keep their muta numbers low" The fact that once a player gets to a certain number of units there is no good way to take it out seems a little bit ridiculous if you are staying on even footing in every other aspect of the game.

On August 23 2011 08:40 MattBarry wrote:
Who cares if foreign Terrans are bad? You should balance the game at the highest levels of play and at the highest level of play Terran is dominating. As for whether 1/1/1 is imbalanced, hmm. As a Protoss player I'm in inclined to jump the gun and say yes but it might not be. I think it should be given time.

On August 23 2011 08:46 IVN wrote:

So what? Why does Blizz have those fancy patch test servers anyway?

They could just as easily say that a new patch is coming, say that its some random thing, like +5 sec to thank build time, and not even document the MULE change, all the while its being tested by the players on the test server. Then, they can analyze the data, and see if it helps, or if its too drastic, or what ever.