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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 09:08 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 09:01 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 08:51 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:46 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 08:40 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:31 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Not only does it take away the ridiculous advantage Terran players have in 1 Base or Equal Base situations, when dealing with this particular push in discussion, many high level Korean players find that the number of Marines it what makes this push so potent, reduce the huge advantage in mineral income, and you reduce the number of marines at this stage in the game without re-balancing any single combat unit. Terran is not automatically ahead in equal base situations. You can't just say "hey, he's mining more minerals because of mules, he must be ahead". Neither is it reasonable to expect terrans to expand at the same rate as the other races. Mules are the terrans macro boost, the "big thing" kinda like spawn larva or chronoboost/warpgates. All of them are imbalanced on paper, but it somehow balances out in the end. What you are suggesting is gutting the terrans primary macro boost because you think it could fix the 1-1-1 and everything else would be just *fine and dandy*. I really don't think you understand how big of an impact your proposed changes would have. So what? Why does Blizz have those fancy patch test servers anyway? They could just as easily say that a new patch is coming, say that its some random thing, like +5 sec to thank build time, and not even document the MULE change, all the while its being tested by the players on the test server. Then, they can analyze the data, and see if it helps, or if its too drastic, or what ever. Blizzard seems to only take baby steps with patches. A big nerf on a races mineral gathering would be huge at this point, and it would require more testing than the few players on test realm. It could be done with HOTS if Blizzard deems it necessary though. But a big nerf on zealot build time and warpgate time, core mechanics, were just done with big steps? KA removal, voidray speed removal were baby steps? Pylon range change, baby steps? Roach range change, baby steps? Right. Many of the things you list happened a long time ago though, Blizzard is getting more careful with changes - and the game seemed really balanced too until the Koreans rediscovered 1-1-1. Some of the biggest changes were done a while ago (VR nerf, roach buff etc.) yet they still only changed one unit at a time. This MULE idea changes how many minerals the terran player has from the moment he drops his first MULE to until the map is mined out. I think you can see the difference. I don't see the need for the sarcasm though. Did I upset you somehow?
It just seems ironic to me that they were very very fast to nerf protoss or buff zerg all the time and a lot, but now that people finally accept protoss has issues they talk about how blizzard needs to take baby steps with balance changes or allow the metagame to adjust (for a year or two, maybe 10).
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On August 23 2011 08:59 hugedong wrote:
rofl people hopping on the "game is dying" bandwagon because of 1/1/1
Really? Why watch if outcomes are predetermined and it's full of on sided all ins? I don't watch adults beat on children for same reason and that's what it looks like sometimes in starcraft 2 matches.
Easy to execute and takes an act of god to defend removes the sporting aspect for most people.
Even sportsman themselves which is why MVP swore never to do it again.
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Again, the MULE is not the cause of the 1/1/1 strength. Protoss is ahead in probes by 4-5 (what a mule is worth) and on 2 base, then dies to this push. They have a BETTER economy and die. It is NOT the MULE. So please leave it out of the thread.
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On August 23 2011 09:08 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 09:01 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 08:51 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:46 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 08:40 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:31 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Not only does it take away the ridiculous advantage Terran players have in 1 Base or Equal Base situations, when dealing with this particular push in discussion, many high level Korean players find that the number of Marines it what makes this push so potent, reduce the huge advantage in mineral income, and you reduce the number of marines at this stage in the game without re-balancing any single combat unit. Terran is not automatically ahead in equal base situations. You can't just say "hey, he's mining more minerals because of mules, he must be ahead". Neither is it reasonable to expect terrans to expand at the same rate as the other races. Mules are the terrans macro boost, the "big thing" kinda like spawn larva or chronoboost/warpgates. All of them are imbalanced on paper, but it somehow balances out in the end. What you are suggesting is gutting the terrans primary macro boost because you think it could fix the 1-1-1 and everything else would be just *fine and dandy*. I really don't think you understand how big of an impact your proposed changes would have. So what? Why does Blizz have those fancy patch test servers anyway? They could just as easily say that a new patch is coming, say that its some random thing, like +5 sec to thank build time, and not even document the MULE change, all the while its being tested by the players on the test server. Then, they can analyze the data, and see if it helps, or if its too drastic, or what ever. Blizzard seems to only take baby steps with patches. A big nerf on a races mineral gathering would be huge at this point, and it would require more testing than the few players on test realm. It could be done with HOTS if Blizzard deems it necessary though. But a big nerf on zealot build time and warpgate time, core mechanics, were just done with big steps? KA removal, voidray speed removal were baby steps? Pylon range change, baby steps? Roach range change, baby steps? Right. Many of the things you list happened a long time ago though, Blizzard is getting more careful with changes - and the game seemed really balanced too until the Koreans rediscovered 1-1-1. Some of the biggest changes were done a while ago (VR nerf, roach buff etc.) yet they still only changed one unit at a time. This MULE idea changes how many minerals the terran player has from the moment he drops his first MULE to until the map is mined out. I think you can see the difference.I don't see the need for the sarcasm though. Did I upset you somehow? Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 09:06 VirgilSC2 wrote:
The MULE "nerf" I'm suggesting actually just brings it in line with the macro mechanics of the other two races. The macro mechanics between each race are radically different. There is absolutely no logic to this statement.
The proposed MULE idea actually only effects Terran income of dropping MULEs on already fully saturated mineral lines.
Yes, the macro mechanics are radcially different, but just because three things that are DESIGNED TO BE BALANCED and simply work differently doesn't give one the excuse to break a limitation that neither other race can ever possibly break, at any point in the game.
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On August 23 2011 08:59 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:54 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Well then maybe Terrans should find a way to counter Zerg without being reliant on purely marines. Nerfing MULEs is probably the one thing that should be done to bring every race's macro mechanic in line with eachother, in order to provide a more equal footing in high level play, as it is, Terrans gain a huge economic advantage for no reason other than picking Terran against Zerg or Protoss players. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a caster say "well X is ahead on Workers, but Y is getting more income because of MULEs"
They may well be imba at the point where making more workers isn't useful anymore. They aren't before that though, at least not noticeably, and most importantly they have very little bearing on the push this thread is about. This push happens when making more workers is still very good. MC lost game 1 despite having like 10 more workers the whole time. That's better than a mule. Ergo the issue ain't the mule.
You are wrong. Look at this screen shot. It's from the 1st MC v Puma game on XNC.
![[image loading]](http://www.abload.de/img/mulesxrv7.jpg)
Full saturation at 5:50. Push begins at 9. And I've counted. He has used additional 3 MULEs before the push. How much is that? 3 * 270 minerals? Equals 16 marines.
Now imagine those 3 MULEs could only bring only a 1/2 or a 1/4 of minerals back, because the mineral line is already saturated and they have to wait on SCVs to finish mining. Suddenly the 111 push becomes easily holdable, assuming you scout it and you are not playing stupidly greedy.
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On August 23 2011 09:11 Yaotzin wrote:
Again, the MULE is not the cause of the 1/1/1 strength. Protoss is ahead in probes by 4-5 (what a mule is worth) and on 2 base, then dies to this push. They have a BETTER economy and die. It is NOT the MULE. So please leave it out of the thread.
Actually, there is no rule that says "The Protoss player has to be on two bases for 1-1-1 to be used"
The proposed MULE change ONLY effects Terran in a 1-base vs 1-base situation(or equal base vs equal base), at max saturation.
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On August 23 2011 09:01 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:43 sekritzzz wrote:
I think rather than tweaking any terran units, blizzard should just re-do the terran "special" skill. The mule is basically the core of this build. The mule is the only reason this build can outproduce the protoss. Not to mention I've always hated the fact that forgetting to mule isn't punishable because you can just do it twice at the same time (unlike inject/chrono). Yeah, gotta agree. The MULE mechanics are a joke when you compare them to the other races abilities. There's no penalty to forgetting a MULE other than being behind for a short period of time; and by "being behind" I mean "equal to the enemy but further behind where you could've been." That they can (and I've seen pros do it) drop like 8 freaking MULEs on one mining patch is absurd to me. Can you imagine Zergs dropping 8 larva injects on a hatch just 'cause they forgot? Lulz. EDIT: For what it's worth - I think Protoss got nerfed too hard a few patches back. I don't really play Protoss, and I can't stand the race but some of the nerfs they got seem to be having an impact now that is setting them back further than predicted.
Being "behind" for X seconds because of late mules is actually devastating. Don't tell me you haven't been in or watched a situation where X more units would have saved the day. A delayed mule is a delayed execution. A missed mule (with a scan or supply drop) actually puts Terran behind in a macro race/game. All those mechanics that other races have to offset resource explosions (chrono, larva, warpgates with resource diversive options) are not part of the Terran arsenal. If Terran prepares for the influx of minerals from the extra muling, that's X marines/tanks/marauders/BFH that Terran can't make because he over invested in production. If he doesn't overinvest in production, that's income that's essentially wasted. Terran doesn't just que up or warp in 10 expensive units to offset the cost and get a benefit from.
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On August 23 2011 09:14 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:59 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 08:54 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Well then maybe Terrans should find a way to counter Zerg without being reliant on purely marines. Nerfing MULEs is probably the one thing that should be done to bring every race's macro mechanic in line with eachother, in order to provide a more equal footing in high level play, as it is, Terrans gain a huge economic advantage for no reason other than picking Terran against Zerg or Protoss players. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a caster say "well X is ahead on Workers, but Y is getting more income because of MULEs"
They may well be imba at the point where making more workers isn't useful anymore. They aren't before that though, at least not noticeably, and most importantly they have very little bearing on the push this thread is about. This push happens when making more workers is still very good. MC lost game 1 despite having like 10 more workers the whole time. That's better than a mule. Ergo the issue ain't the mule. You are wrong. Look at this screen shot. It's from the 1st MC v Puma game on XNC. Full saturation at 5:50. Push begins at 9. And I've counted. He has used additional 3 MULEs before the push. How much is that? 3 * 270 minerals? Equals 16 marines.Now imagine those 3 MULEs could only bring only a 1/2 or a 1/4 of minerals back, because the mineral line is already saturated and they have to wait on SCVs to finish mining. Suddenly the 111 push becomes easily holdable, assuming you scout it and you are not playing stupidly greedy. Thank you for taking the time to acquire a screenshot. This information just reinforces what I've been trying to say.
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When Puma starts sieging up the nat:
Army value:
2100/550 for Puma
2025/900 for MC.
Protoss is AHEAD in economy. The mule is NOT the issue here.
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On August 23 2011 09:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 09:08 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 09:01 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 08:51 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:46 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 08:40 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:31 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Not only does it take away the ridiculous advantage Terran players have in 1 Base or Equal Base situations, when dealing with this particular push in discussion, many high level Korean players find that the number of Marines it what makes this push so potent, reduce the huge advantage in mineral income, and you reduce the number of marines at this stage in the game without re-balancing any single combat unit. Terran is not automatically ahead in equal base situations. You can't just say "hey, he's mining more minerals because of mules, he must be ahead". Neither is it reasonable to expect terrans to expand at the same rate as the other races. Mules are the terrans macro boost, the "big thing" kinda like spawn larva or chronoboost/warpgates. All of them are imbalanced on paper, but it somehow balances out in the end. What you are suggesting is gutting the terrans primary macro boost because you think it could fix the 1-1-1 and everything else would be just *fine and dandy*. I really don't think you understand how big of an impact your proposed changes would have. So what? Why does Blizz have those fancy patch test servers anyway? They could just as easily say that a new patch is coming, say that its some random thing, like +5 sec to thank build time, and not even document the MULE change, all the while its being tested by the players on the test server. Then, they can analyze the data, and see if it helps, or if its too drastic, or what ever. Blizzard seems to only take baby steps with patches. A big nerf on a races mineral gathering would be huge at this point, and it would require more testing than the few players on test realm. It could be done with HOTS if Blizzard deems it necessary though. But a big nerf on zealot build time and warpgate time, core mechanics, were just done with big steps? KA removal, voidray speed removal were baby steps? Pylon range change, baby steps? Roach range change, baby steps? Right. Many of the things you list happened a long time ago though, Blizzard is getting more careful with changes - and the game seemed really balanced too until the Koreans rediscovered 1-1-1. Some of the biggest changes were done a while ago (VR nerf, roach buff etc.) yet they still only changed one unit at a time. This MULE idea changes how many minerals the terran player has from the moment he drops his first MULE to until the map is mined out. I think you can see the difference.I don't see the need for the sarcasm though. Did I upset you somehow? On August 23 2011 09:06 VirgilSC2 wrote:
The MULE "nerf" I'm suggesting actually just brings it in line with the macro mechanics of the other two races. The macro mechanics between each race are radically different. There is absolutely no logic to this statement. The proposed MULE idea actually only effects Terran income of dropping MULEs on already fully saturated mineral lines. Yes, the macro mechanics are radcially different, but just because three things that are DESIGNED TO BE BALANCED and simply work differently doesn't give one the excuse to break a limitation that neither other race can ever possibly break, at any point in the game.
Can a terran warp in 50 supply in 5 seconds? Can a terran make 50 units from 6 unit producing structures? No, these are limitations that they cannot break and have to deal with.
When you drop your first MULE your SCV count is usually at 12 (if you're mining gas), so its not like the MULE gets a free node from the start. It matters.
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On August 23 2011 09:14 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:59 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 08:54 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Well then maybe Terrans should find a way to counter Zerg without being reliant on purely marines. Nerfing MULEs is probably the one thing that should be done to bring every race's macro mechanic in line with eachother, in order to provide a more equal footing in high level play, as it is, Terrans gain a huge economic advantage for no reason other than picking Terran against Zerg or Protoss players. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a caster say "well X is ahead on Workers, but Y is getting more income because of MULEs"
They may well be imba at the point where making more workers isn't useful anymore. They aren't before that though, at least not noticeably, and most importantly they have very little bearing on the push this thread is about. This push happens when making more workers is still very good. MC lost game 1 despite having like 10 more workers the whole time. That's better than a mule. Ergo the issue ain't the mule. You are wrong. Look at this screen shot. It's from the 1st MC v Puma game on XNC. Full saturation at 5:50. Push begins at 9. And I've counted. He has used additional 3 MULEs before the push. How much is that? 3 * 270 minerals? Equals 16 marines.Now imagine those 3 MULEs could only bring only a 1/2 or a 1/4 of minerals back, because the mineral line is already saturated and they have to wait on SCVs to finish mining. Suddenly the 111 push becomes easily holdable, assuming you scout it and you are not playing stupidly greedy.
And now, suddenly Terran can't hold off a 4 gate, baneling bust, or even a 3 gate pressure expand. This mule nonsense is horrendously shortsighted and doesn't seem to take into account ANYTHING other than this stupid "1-1-1" timing.
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On August 23 2011 09:18 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 09:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 23 2011 09:08 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 09:01 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 08:51 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:46 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 08:40 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:31 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Not only does it take away the ridiculous advantage Terran players have in 1 Base or Equal Base situations, when dealing with this particular push in discussion, many high level Korean players find that the number of Marines it what makes this push so potent, reduce the huge advantage in mineral income, and you reduce the number of marines at this stage in the game without re-balancing any single combat unit. Terran is not automatically ahead in equal base situations. You can't just say "hey, he's mining more minerals because of mules, he must be ahead". Neither is it reasonable to expect terrans to expand at the same rate as the other races. Mules are the terrans macro boost, the "big thing" kinda like spawn larva or chronoboost/warpgates. All of them are imbalanced on paper, but it somehow balances out in the end. What you are suggesting is gutting the terrans primary macro boost because you think it could fix the 1-1-1 and everything else would be just *fine and dandy*. I really don't think you understand how big of an impact your proposed changes would have. So what? Why does Blizz have those fancy patch test servers anyway? They could just as easily say that a new patch is coming, say that its some random thing, like +5 sec to thank build time, and not even document the MULE change, all the while its being tested by the players on the test server. Then, they can analyze the data, and see if it helps, or if its too drastic, or what ever. Blizzard seems to only take baby steps with patches. A big nerf on a races mineral gathering would be huge at this point, and it would require more testing than the few players on test realm. It could be done with HOTS if Blizzard deems it necessary though. But a big nerf on zealot build time and warpgate time, core mechanics, were just done with big steps? KA removal, voidray speed removal were baby steps? Pylon range change, baby steps? Roach range change, baby steps? Right. Many of the things you list happened a long time ago though, Blizzard is getting more careful with changes - and the game seemed really balanced too until the Koreans rediscovered 1-1-1. Some of the biggest changes were done a while ago (VR nerf, roach buff etc.) yet they still only changed one unit at a time. This MULE idea changes how many minerals the terran player has from the moment he drops his first MULE to until the map is mined out. I think you can see the difference.I don't see the need for the sarcasm though. Did I upset you somehow? On August 23 2011 09:06 VirgilSC2 wrote:
The MULE "nerf" I'm suggesting actually just brings it in line with the macro mechanics of the other two races. The macro mechanics between each race are radically different. There is absolutely no logic to this statement. The proposed MULE idea actually only effects Terran income of dropping MULEs on already fully saturated mineral lines. Yes, the macro mechanics are radcially different, but just because three things that are DESIGNED TO BE BALANCED and simply work differently doesn't give one the excuse to break a limitation that neither other race can ever possibly break, at any point in the game. Can a terran warp in 50 supply in 5 seconds? Can a terran make 50 units from 6 unit producing structures? No, these are limitations that they cannot break and have to deal with. When you drop your first MULE your SCV count is usually at 12 (if you're mining gas), so its not like the MULE gets a free node from the start. It matters. Actually, MULEs and SCVs can mine from the same patch at the same time, so it does get a free patch as soon as you call it down.
On August 23 2011 09:18 Yaotzin wrote:
When Puma starts sieging up the nat:
Army value:
2100/550 for Puma
2025/900 for MC.
Protoss is AHEAD in economy. The mule is NOT the issue here.
You're quoting a statistic from ONE GAME.
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I think it's a pretty big issue with the contain style 1/1/1 which is to me the second scariest part: getting a large army ready to deal with a large marine push, and then the terran just sitting there while reinforcing tanks. It's another variation, and the massive variation available with the 1/1/1 is definitely part of the problem.
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On August 23 2011 09:22 VirgilSC2 wrote:
You're quoting a statistic from ONE GAME.
Would you like a stat from when Protoss expands even earlier than MC, and also dies?
The strength of the 1/1/1 has nothing to do with the mule. Stop poisoning the thread. It is not an issue of being economically overpowered. Keeping up with the Terran economically is quite well understood and not considered a problem at that stage of the game at all.
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On August 23 2011 09:21 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 09:14 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 08:59 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 08:54 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Well then maybe Terrans should find a way to counter Zerg without being reliant on purely marines. Nerfing MULEs is probably the one thing that should be done to bring every race's macro mechanic in line with eachother, in order to provide a more equal footing in high level play, as it is, Terrans gain a huge economic advantage for no reason other than picking Terran against Zerg or Protoss players. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a caster say "well X is ahead on Workers, but Y is getting more income because of MULEs"
They may well be imba at the point where making more workers isn't useful anymore. They aren't before that though, at least not noticeably, and most importantly they have very little bearing on the push this thread is about. This push happens when making more workers is still very good. MC lost game 1 despite having like 10 more workers the whole time. That's better than a mule. Ergo the issue ain't the mule. You are wrong. Look at this screen shot. It's from the 1st MC v Puma game on XNC. Full saturation at 5:50. Push begins at 9. And I've counted. He has used additional 3 MULEs before the push. How much is that? 3 * 270 minerals? Equals 16 marines.Now imagine those 3 MULEs could only bring only a 1/2 or a 1/4 of minerals back, because the mineral line is already saturated and they have to wait on SCVs to finish mining. Suddenly the 111 push becomes easily holdable, assuming you scout it and you are not playing stupidly greedy. And now, suddenly Terran can't hold off a 4 gate, baneling bust, or even a 3 gate pressure expand. This mule nonsense is horrendously shortsighted and doesn't seem to take into account ANYTHING other than this stupid "1-1-1" timing.
You're grabbing at straws. You're ASSUMING that Terran can't hold off a 4-gate, which hits at a point in the game right before, or right as the Terran player could reach Mineral Saturation on one-base, which means up until that point, your MULE is functioning just fine.
You're ASSUMING that Terran can't hold a baneling bust, should they be down a few units, while in reality, if you scout the Baneling bust and reinforce your wall, you can hold a baneling bust just fine.
You're ASSUMING that Terran can't hold a 3-gate pressure expand, see my argument about 4gate.
You know what they say about what happens when you assume.
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On August 23 2011 09:22 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 09:18 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 09:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 23 2011 09:08 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 09:01 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 08:51 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:46 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 08:40 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:31 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Not only does it take away the ridiculous advantage Terran players have in 1 Base or Equal Base situations, when dealing with this particular push in discussion, many high level Korean players find that the number of Marines it what makes this push so potent, reduce the huge advantage in mineral income, and you reduce the number of marines at this stage in the game without re-balancing any single combat unit. Terran is not automatically ahead in equal base situations. You can't just say "hey, he's mining more minerals because of mules, he must be ahead". Neither is it reasonable to expect terrans to expand at the same rate as the other races. Mules are the terrans macro boost, the "big thing" kinda like spawn larva or chronoboost/warpgates. All of them are imbalanced on paper, but it somehow balances out in the end. What you are suggesting is gutting the terrans primary macro boost because you think it could fix the 1-1-1 and everything else would be just *fine and dandy*. I really don't think you understand how big of an impact your proposed changes would have. So what? Why does Blizz have those fancy patch test servers anyway? They could just as easily say that a new patch is coming, say that its some random thing, like +5 sec to thank build time, and not even document the MULE change, all the while its being tested by the players on the test server. Then, they can analyze the data, and see if it helps, or if its too drastic, or what ever. Blizzard seems to only take baby steps with patches. A big nerf on a races mineral gathering would be huge at this point, and it would require more testing than the few players on test realm. It could be done with HOTS if Blizzard deems it necessary though. But a big nerf on zealot build time and warpgate time, core mechanics, were just done with big steps? KA removal, voidray speed removal were baby steps? Pylon range change, baby steps? Roach range change, baby steps? Right. Many of the things you list happened a long time ago though, Blizzard is getting more careful with changes - and the game seemed really balanced too until the Koreans rediscovered 1-1-1. Some of the biggest changes were done a while ago (VR nerf, roach buff etc.) yet they still only changed one unit at a time. This MULE idea changes how many minerals the terran player has from the moment he drops his first MULE to until the map is mined out. I think you can see the difference.I don't see the need for the sarcasm though. Did I upset you somehow? On August 23 2011 09:06 VirgilSC2 wrote:
The MULE "nerf" I'm suggesting actually just brings it in line with the macro mechanics of the other two races. The macro mechanics between each race are radically different. There is absolutely no logic to this statement. The proposed MULE idea actually only effects Terran income of dropping MULEs on already fully saturated mineral lines. Yes, the macro mechanics are radcially different, but just because three things that are DESIGNED TO BE BALANCED and simply work differently doesn't give one the excuse to break a limitation that neither other race can ever possibly break, at any point in the game. Can a terran warp in 50 supply in 5 seconds? Can a terran make 50 units from 6 unit producing structures? No, these are limitations that they cannot break and have to deal with. When you drop your first MULE your SCV count is usually at 12 (if you're mining gas), so its not like the MULE gets a free node from the start. It matters. Actually, MULEs and SCVs can mine from the same patch at the same time, so it does get a free patch as soon as you call it down.
So how the hell does your change actually work if you allow MULEs and SCVs to mine at the same time?
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On August 23 2011 09:25 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 09:22 VirgilSC2 wrote:
You're quoting a statistic from ONE GAME.
Would you like a stat from when Protoss expands even earlier than MC, and also dies? The strength of the 1/1/1 has nothing to do with the mule. Stop poisoning the thread. It is not an issue of being economically overpowered.
Perhaps an early expand isn't the way to counter 1/1/1. I'd say I'm far from "poisoning the thread"
According to many top Korean players, the Marine Count is the hardest thing to deal with in the 1/1/1 timing push, by reducing the insane income advantage a Terran player has in a 1-base to 1-base income situation, the 1/1/1 build has less marines, and therefore becomes more manageable in a 1-base vs 1-base situation with proper preparation from the Protoss player.
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On August 23 2011 09:18 Yaotzin wrote:
When Puma starts sieging up the nat:
Army value:
2100/550 for Puma
2025/900 for MC.
Protoss is AHEAD in economy. The mule is NOT the issue here.
It is.
3 MULEs = 16 marines that Puma had, that he wouldnt have had, if the MULEs werent able to super saturate mineral lines.
If those 3 MULEs hat only brought back 3* 135 minerals, that would be 8 marines less for Puma, and MC could have held a lot easier.
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On August 23 2011 06:06 TimeSpiral wrote:
All we can do is hope the developers let this thing play out for a little while.
That is what is needed.
Let the metagame balance out this little ruffle. It is far from a free win, but it is a potent all-in (which there are many in SC2).
I feel the same way.
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On August 23 2011 09:28 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 09:22 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 23 2011 09:18 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 09:13 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 23 2011 09:08 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 09:01 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 08:51 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:46 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 08:40 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:31 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Not only does it take away the ridiculous advantage Terran players have in 1 Base or Equal Base situations, when dealing with this particular push in discussion, many high level Korean players find that the number of Marines it what makes this push so potent, reduce the huge advantage in mineral income, and you reduce the number of marines at this stage in the game without re-balancing any single combat unit. Terran is not automatically ahead in equal base situations. You can't just say "hey, he's mining more minerals because of mules, he must be ahead". Neither is it reasonable to expect terrans to expand at the same rate as the other races. Mules are the terrans macro boost, the "big thing" kinda like spawn larva or chronoboost/warpgates. All of them are imbalanced on paper, but it somehow balances out in the end. What you are suggesting is gutting the terrans primary macro boost because you think it could fix the 1-1-1 and everything else would be just *fine and dandy*. I really don't think you understand how big of an impact your proposed changes would have. So what? Why does Blizz have those fancy patch test servers anyway? They could just as easily say that a new patch is coming, say that its some random thing, like +5 sec to thank build time, and not even document the MULE change, all the while its being tested by the players on the test server. Then, they can analyze the data, and see if it helps, or if its too drastic, or what ever. Blizzard seems to only take baby steps with patches. A big nerf on a races mineral gathering would be huge at this point, and it would require more testing than the few players on test realm. It could be done with HOTS if Blizzard deems it necessary though. But a big nerf on zealot build time and warpgate time, core mechanics, were just done with big steps? KA removal, voidray speed removal were baby steps? Pylon range change, baby steps? Roach range change, baby steps? Right. Many of the things you list happened a long time ago though, Blizzard is getting more careful with changes - and the game seemed really balanced too until the Koreans rediscovered 1-1-1. Some of the biggest changes were done a while ago (VR nerf, roach buff etc.) yet they still only changed one unit at a time. This MULE idea changes how many minerals the terran player has from the moment he drops his first MULE to until the map is mined out. I think you can see the difference.I don't see the need for the sarcasm though. Did I upset you somehow? On August 23 2011 09:06 VirgilSC2 wrote:
The MULE "nerf" I'm suggesting actually just brings it in line with the macro mechanics of the other two races. The macro mechanics between each race are radically different. There is absolutely no logic to this statement. The proposed MULE idea actually only effects Terran income of dropping MULEs on already fully saturated mineral lines. Yes, the macro mechanics are radcially different, but just because three things that are DESIGNED TO BE BALANCED and simply work differently doesn't give one the excuse to break a limitation that neither other race can ever possibly break, at any point in the game. Can a terran warp in 50 supply in 5 seconds? Can a terran make 50 units from 6 unit producing structures? No, these are limitations that they cannot break and have to deal with. When you drop your first MULE your SCV count is usually at 12 (if you're mining gas), so its not like the MULE gets a free node from the start. It matters. Actually, MULEs and SCVs can mine from the same patch at the same time, so it does get a free patch as soon as you call it down. So how the hell does your change actually work if you allow MULEs and SCVs to mine at the same time? ....MULEs and SCVs can currently mine from the same patch, my proposed change means this CANNOT occur, if you're worried about SCVs stealing patches from MULEs, It can't be THAT complicated for Blizzard to implement a mechanic that gives the MULE priority over the SCV in a conflict situation.
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