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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 08:36 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:29 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 08:25 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 08:20 Teiwaz wrote:On August 23 2011 07:43 Souli wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2011 07:20 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 07:16 okrane wrote:
Dumb question: why do marines need 45hp w/o combat shield and 55hp with combat shield later in the game?
How would 10hp less to marines change the match-ups? Terrans need marines for DPS, especially in TvZ. Once aoe enters the fray, 45hp marines die. Like really fast. The problem comes from the timing between lots of marines -> aoe enters the fray. 1-1-1 nails this timing. I suggest Blizzard may swap storm research with feedback. That wouldn't only make them equal to ghosts (storm - emp) but also maybe stop the push. Any comments? That would be a horrible decision IMO as it would make a huge timing push vZ possible - at least I think that. No, I really like the "no super saturation with MULES" idea WAY better - super saturation for the race that get's the most out of a mineral surplus, yeah, great idea Blizzard... Where's this mule stuff coming from? Mules causing a headache is just a meaningless side effect of the allin being so strong that it can trap you on one base. If you aren't trapped on one base mules are fine. Only solutions I can see are a) nerf marine dps at least temporarily (give it back with upgrade) or b) slow down Terran tech so Protoss can get aoe and a decent gateway force against mass marine with support. The way I see it, the 111 push starts 2 or so mules after the mineral line has been saturated. How much is that? ~500 minerals worth of marines? Dunno but its beside the point. You don't nerf a fundamental aspect of the game like that to deal with a specific timing problem. The 1/1/1 composition is easy to deal with lategame, it's purely a timing issue. Solution is to slow Terran down, not nerf them permanently. Nerfing mules would break tvz horribly it's so reliant on marines.
Well then maybe Terrans should find a way to counter Zerg without being reliant on purely marines. Nerfing MULEs is probably the one thing that should be done to bring every race's macro mechanic in line with eachother, in order to provide a more equal footing in high level play, as it is, Terrans gain a huge economic advantage for no reason other than picking Terran against Zerg or Protoss players. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a caster say "well X is ahead on Workers, but Y is getting more income because of MULEs"
I think it should be noted that you all subconsciously know MULEs are OP, as people jump in this thread and talk about nerfing things like Marine HP or Marine Range, and someone comes up with a logical reason to nerf MULEs and everyone immediately reacts with "BUT THAT BREAKS THE GAME"
On August 23 2011 08:40 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:31 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Not only does it take away the ridiculous advantage Terran players have in 1 Base or Equal Base situations, when dealing with this particular push in discussion, many high level Korean players find that the number of Marines it what makes this push so potent, reduce the huge advantage in mineral income, and you reduce the number of marines at this stage in the game without re-balancing any single combat unit. Terran is not automatically ahead in equal base situations. You can't just say "hey, he's mining more minerals because of mules, he must be ahead". Neither is it reasonable to expect terrans to expand at the same rate as the other races. Mules are the terrans macro boost, the "big thing" kinda like spawn larva or chronoboost/warpgates. All of them are imbalanced on paper, but it somehow balances out in the end. What you are suggesting is gutting the terrans primary macro boost because you think it could fix the 1-1-1 and everything else would be just *fine and dandy*. I really don't think you understand how big of an impact your proposed changes would have.
I apologize, I left out "equal amount of workers lost to harassment" in my previous post. I'm not suggesting you "gut" Terrans macro boost, I'm not saying to remove MULEs, I'm saying that after a mineral line becomes saturated, MULEs should suffer just like every other macro mechanic a race has does. Be happy, that change would mean Scans would be more "affordable" and you could even drop supply, which is ALSO a macro mechanic Terran has, but never needs to use.
On August 23 2011 08:41 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:28 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Most "standard" Terran builds revolve around getting your OC at around 15 Supply, which, at that point in the game, Protoss/Zerg Macro mechanics have hardly kicked in enough to warrant complaint about super-saturation being necessary.
Furthermore, a nerf to MULEs regarding super-saturation does have a "side benefit" for Terrans. Since you won't be gaining a ridiculous income advantage due to MULEs, you won't mine out your bases as fast, meaning you'll be on equal footing for longer, which in turn leads to DIFFERENT timings evolving in the Terran metagame. A 4 worker difference by the time mules come into play is standard. A little more than 2 workers for chrono, then another 2+ from the 35s it takes to make an orbital (it's usually something like 38-40s since it doesn't line up perfectly). That's enough to give Protoss a few hundred resource lead, and if chrono is used even more, the lead increases until Terran saturation.
Wait.....so.....one MULE doesn't make up for a 4-5 worker deficit? I'm pretty sure it does.
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On August 23 2011 07:39 Kamais_Ookin wrote:
Is there any replays of a perfectly executed 1/1/1 from a pro player? I tried one earlier today and I messed up a bit and would like to see how they do it.
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On August 23 2011 08:48 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:43 Executor1 wrote:
Mutas have always been a problem in zvp im surprised they have never been touched, the answer to mass muta has always been "Kill them before they get there" or "make sure to keep their muta numbers low" The fact that once a player gets to a certain number of units there is no good way to take it out seems a little bit ridiculous if you are staying on even footing in every other aspect of the game. 200/200 void ray is imba too. Same solution, don't let them get it. This is Starcraft not turtlecraft. Koreans don't have problems with mass X because they actually attack.
Is 200/200 even imba have never seen it against 3/3 all marine probobly not, but 1/1/1 happens all the time mass voidray never happens.
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On August 23 2011 08:54 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Well then maybe Terrans should find a way to counter Zerg without being reliant on purely marines. Nerfing MULEs is probably the one thing that should be done to bring every race's macro mechanic in line with eachother, in order to provide a more equal footing in high level play, as it is, Terrans gain a huge economic advantage for no reason other than picking Terran against Zerg or Protoss players. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a caster say "well X is ahead on Workers, but Y is getting more income because of MULEs"
They may well be imba at the point where making more workers isn't useful anymore. They aren't before that though, at least not noticeably, and most importantly they have very little bearing on the push this thread is about. This push happens when making more workers is still very good. MC lost game 1 despite having like 10 more workers the whole time. That's better than a mule. Ergo the issue ain't the mule.
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I am confused as to what your pictures are supposed to represent? You are floating like 4k mins in the last one at 9:30? I feel like having that many mins plus warpgate tech is good?? Maybe I misunderstood your point.
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rofl people hopping on the "game is dying" bandwagon because of 1/1/1
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On August 23 2011 08:54 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I think it should be noted that you all subconsciously know MULEs are OP, as people jump in this thread and talk about nerfing things like Marine HP or Marine Range, and someone comes up with a logical reason to nerf MULEs and everyone immediately reacts with "BUT THAT BREAKS THE GAME"
Nobody in their right mind is asking for a marine nerf, unless maybe if its something that can neglected with an upgrade later on. This MULE idea cannot.
Everyone immediatly reacts that way because they know its a bad idea. It just seems like you cannot accept that when everyone is against you, maybe your idea isn't that great after all?
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On August 23 2011 08:59 hugedong wrote:
rofl people hopping on the "game is dying" bandwagon because of 1/1/1
As an esport? TvT can't sustain the game forever, it needs the other races. It most certainly will die if the domination of Terrans isn't dealt with.
I am confused as to what your pictures are supposed to represent? You are floating like 4k mins in the last one at 9:30? I feel like having that many mins plus warpgate tech is good?? Maybe I misunderstood your point.
He's basically just showing the potential total resources you have to work with, to stop this push. If you theorycraft something that those resources can't produce, then that theorycraft cannot stop this push.
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On August 23 2011 08:51 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:46 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 08:40 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:31 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Not only does it take away the ridiculous advantage Terran players have in 1 Base or Equal Base situations, when dealing with this particular push in discussion, many high level Korean players find that the number of Marines it what makes this push so potent, reduce the huge advantage in mineral income, and you reduce the number of marines at this stage in the game without re-balancing any single combat unit. Terran is not automatically ahead in equal base situations. You can't just say "hey, he's mining more minerals because of mules, he must be ahead". Neither is it reasonable to expect terrans to expand at the same rate as the other races. Mules are the terrans macro boost, the "big thing" kinda like spawn larva or chronoboost/warpgates. All of them are imbalanced on paper, but it somehow balances out in the end. What you are suggesting is gutting the terrans primary macro boost because you think it could fix the 1-1-1 and everything else would be just *fine and dandy*. I really don't think you understand how big of an impact your proposed changes would have. So what? Why does Blizz have those fancy patch test servers anyway? They could just as easily say that a new patch is coming, say that its some random thing, like +5 sec to thank build time, and not even document the MULE change, all the while its being tested by the players on the test server. Then, they can analyze the data, and see if it helps, or if its too drastic, or what ever. Blizzard seems to only take baby steps with patches. A big nerf on a races mineral gathering would be huge at this point, and it would require more testing than the few players on test realm. It could be done with HOTS if Blizzard deems it necessary though.
But a big nerf on zealot build time and warpgate time, core mechanics, were just done with big steps? KA removal, voidray speed removal were baby steps? Pylon range change, baby steps? Roach range change, baby steps?
Right.
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On August 23 2011 08:43 sekritzzz wrote:
I think rather than tweaking any terran units, blizzard should just re-do the terran "special" skill. The mule is basically the core of this build. The mule is the only reason this build can outproduce the protoss. Not to mention I've always hated the fact that forgetting to mule isn't punishable because you can just do it twice at the same time (unlike inject/chrono).
Yeah, gotta agree.
The MULE mechanics are a joke when you compare them to the other races abilities. There's no penalty to forgetting a MULE other than being behind for a short period of time; and by "being behind" I mean "equal to the enemy but further behind where you could've been."
That they can (and I've seen pros do it) drop like 8 freaking MULEs on one mining patch is absurd to me. Can you imagine Zergs dropping 8 larva injects on a hatch just 'cause they forgot? Lulz.
EDIT: For what it's worth - I think Protoss got nerfed too hard a few patches back. I don't really play Protoss, and I can't stand the race but some of the nerfs they got seem to be having an impact now that is setting them back further than predicted.
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On August 23 2011 08:59 SPQRGaius wrote:
I am confused as to what your pictures are supposed to represent? You are floating like 4k mins in the last one at 9:30? I feel like having that many mins plus warpgate tech is good?? Maybe I misunderstood your point.
It's because people were saying that you can have 3 Colossus out at the 10:00 minute mark.
The picture tell you how many ressources you are going to have -> data-based theorycrafting
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I would just like to add this into the discussion about MULEs:
From Liquipedia:
"MULEs are as effective as around 4 (±0.3) SCVs, as SCVs average 42-43 minerals per game-minute on blue mineral patches (for two or less workers per patch)."
Meaning in a 1-Base vs 1-Base situation, after worker saturation is reached, Terrans have the equivalent income of if they had two additional mineral patches. I'm not quite sure how this is seen as balanced what-so-ever.
Terran players claim MULEs are necessary to "keep up" with Drone and Probe production, meaning that if Terran players simply can't "super saturate" with MULEs, that would be exactly what they claim they need MULEs for: keeping up, not exceeding.
I'll say it again
Change the MULE mechanic as to not allow "super saturation"
Not only does this come across as more balanced in the game as a whole, but it specifically reduces the potency of the current "1-1-1 All-In" by reducing the number of Marines in the push, which is the issue top tier players such as oGsMC appear to have problems finding a way to counter.
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The general balance discussion thread is right over there. Please post mule-related stuff in it instead?
Protoss players can have 10 more probes than Terran when this push happens, and have been ahead in income the entire game, and they still get crushed. It is NOT an issue with MULEs.
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On August 23 2011 08:54 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:36 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 08:29 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 08:25 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 08:20 Teiwaz wrote:On August 23 2011 07:43 Souli wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2011 07:20 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 07:16 okrane wrote:
Dumb question: why do marines need 45hp w/o combat shield and 55hp with combat shield later in the game?
How would 10hp less to marines change the match-ups? Terrans need marines for DPS, especially in TvZ. Once aoe enters the fray, 45hp marines die. Like really fast. The problem comes from the timing between lots of marines -> aoe enters the fray. 1-1-1 nails this timing. I suggest Blizzard may swap storm research with feedback. That wouldn't only make them equal to ghosts (storm - emp) but also maybe stop the push. Any comments? That would be a horrible decision IMO as it would make a huge timing push vZ possible - at least I think that. No, I really like the "no super saturation with MULES" idea WAY better - super saturation for the race that get's the most out of a mineral surplus, yeah, great idea Blizzard... Where's this mule stuff coming from? Mules causing a headache is just a meaningless side effect of the allin being so strong that it can trap you on one base. If you aren't trapped on one base mules are fine. Only solutions I can see are a) nerf marine dps at least temporarily (give it back with upgrade) or b) slow down Terran tech so Protoss can get aoe and a decent gateway force against mass marine with support. The way I see it, the 111 push starts 2 or so mules after the mineral line has been saturated. How much is that? ~500 minerals worth of marines? Dunno but its beside the point. You don't nerf a fundamental aspect of the game like that to deal with a specific timing problem. The 1/1/1 composition is easy to deal with lategame, it's purely a timing issue. Solution is to slow Terran down, not nerf them permanently. Nerfing mules would break tvz horribly it's so reliant on marines. Well then maybe Terrans should find a way to counter Zerg without being reliant on purely marines. Nerfing MULEs is probably the one thing that should be done to bring every race's macro mechanic in line with eachother, in order to provide a more equal footing in high level play, as it is, Terrans gain a huge economic advantage for no reason other than picking Terran against Zerg or Protoss players. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a caster say "well X is ahead on Workers, but Y is getting more income because of MULEs" I think it should be noted that you all subconsciously know MULEs are OP, as people jump in this thread and talk about nerfing things like Marine HP or Marine Range, and someone comes up with a logical reason to nerf MULEs and everyone immediately reacts with "BUT THAT BREAKS THE GAME" Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:40 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:31 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Not only does it take away the ridiculous advantage Terran players have in 1 Base or Equal Base situations, when dealing with this particular push in discussion, many high level Korean players find that the number of Marines it what makes this push so potent, reduce the huge advantage in mineral income, and you reduce the number of marines at this stage in the game without re-balancing any single combat unit. Terran is not automatically ahead in equal base situations. You can't just say "hey, he's mining more minerals because of mules, he must be ahead". Neither is it reasonable to expect terrans to expand at the same rate as the other races. Mules are the terrans macro boost, the "big thing" kinda like spawn larva or chronoboost/warpgates. All of them are imbalanced on paper, but it somehow balances out in the end. What you are suggesting is gutting the terrans primary macro boost because you think it could fix the 1-1-1 and everything else would be just *fine and dandy*. I really don't think you understand how big of an impact your proposed changes would have. I apologize, I left out "equal amount of workers lost to harassment" in my previous post. I'm not suggesting you "gut" Terrans macro boost, I'm not saying to remove MULEs, I'm saying that after a mineral line becomes saturated, MULEs should suffer just like every other macro mechanic a race has does. Be happy, that change would mean Scans would be more "affordable" and you could even drop supply, which is ALSO a macro mechanic Terran has, but never needs to use. Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:41 aksfjh wrote:On August 23 2011 08:28 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Most "standard" Terran builds revolve around getting your OC at around 15 Supply, which, at that point in the game, Protoss/Zerg Macro mechanics have hardly kicked in enough to warrant complaint about super-saturation being necessary.
Furthermore, a nerf to MULEs regarding super-saturation does have a "side benefit" for Terrans. Since you won't be gaining a ridiculous income advantage due to MULEs, you won't mine out your bases as fast, meaning you'll be on equal footing for longer, which in turn leads to DIFFERENT timings evolving in the Terran metagame. A 4 worker difference by the time mules come into play is standard. A little more than 2 workers for chrono, then another 2+ from the 35s it takes to make an orbital (it's usually something like 38-40s since it doesn't line up perfectly). That's enough to give Protoss a few hundred resource lead, and if chrono is used even more, the lead increases until Terran saturation. Wait.....so.....one MULE doesn't make up for a 4-5 worker deficit? I'm pretty sure it does.
Oh, you want us to use less of our most essential unit? Okay, let's completely rethink the entire matchup so blizzard won't feel bad when they nerf something. Your train of thought is completely puzzling to me. Oh and on mules, they offer a burst income to Terran's enconomy.. It all balances out when you look at the resources collected. Other races have the ability to produce workers much faster than terran, so it would only make sense to give us something right? Or no, probably in your biased mind it's allll okay. If you want us to learn how to use marines less in the matchup, please, oh god of the game, tell us how we could possibly do this.
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On August 23 2011 09:01 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:54 VirgilSC2 wrote:
I think it should be noted that you all subconsciously know MULEs are OP, as people jump in this thread and talk about nerfing things like Marine HP or Marine Range, and someone comes up with a logical reason to nerf MULEs and everyone immediately reacts with "BUT THAT BREAKS THE GAME" Nobody in their right mind is asking for a marine nerf, unless maybe if its something that can neglected with an upgrade later on. This MULE idea cannot. Everyone immediatly reacts that way because they know its a bad idea. It just seems like you cannot accept that when everyone is against you, maybe your idea isn't that great after all?
I've seen quite a few people agree with me in this thread, it's just that Terran players love their MULEs so much.
Scan the last few pages, I seem to see like 8 ideas for Marine Nerfs popping up that nobody gives two cents about.
The MULE "nerf" I'm suggesting actually just brings it in line with the macro mechanics of the other two races.
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On August 23 2011 08:59 hugedong wrote:
rofl people hopping on the "game is dying" bandwagon because of 1/1/1
Well it's gonna be a lot of tvt in the future, enjoy. Or maybe your gonna get so bored that even you realise the power of 1/1/1 i dont even watch tvt anymore in tournaments if it isnt a final, but thats just me.
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On August 23 2011 09:01 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:51 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:46 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 08:40 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:31 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Not only does it take away the ridiculous advantage Terran players have in 1 Base or Equal Base situations, when dealing with this particular push in discussion, many high level Korean players find that the number of Marines it what makes this push so potent, reduce the huge advantage in mineral income, and you reduce the number of marines at this stage in the game without re-balancing any single combat unit. Terran is not automatically ahead in equal base situations. You can't just say "hey, he's mining more minerals because of mules, he must be ahead". Neither is it reasonable to expect terrans to expand at the same rate as the other races. Mules are the terrans macro boost, the "big thing" kinda like spawn larva or chronoboost/warpgates. All of them are imbalanced on paper, but it somehow balances out in the end. What you are suggesting is gutting the terrans primary macro boost because you think it could fix the 1-1-1 and everything else would be just *fine and dandy*. I really don't think you understand how big of an impact your proposed changes would have. So what? Why does Blizz have those fancy patch test servers anyway? They could just as easily say that a new patch is coming, say that its some random thing, like +5 sec to thank build time, and not even document the MULE change, all the while its being tested by the players on the test server. Then, they can analyze the data, and see if it helps, or if its too drastic, or what ever. Blizzard seems to only take baby steps with patches. A big nerf on a races mineral gathering would be huge at this point, and it would require more testing than the few players on test realm. It could be done with HOTS if Blizzard deems it necessary though. But a big nerf on zealot build time and warpgate time, core mechanics, were just done with big steps? KA removal, voidray speed removal were baby steps? Pylon range change, baby steps? Roach range change, baby steps? Right.
Many of the things you list happened a long time ago though, Blizzard is getting more careful with changes - and the game seemed really balanced too until the Koreans rediscovered 1-1-1. Some of the biggest changes were done a while ago (VR nerf, roach buff etc.) yet they still only changed one unit at a time. This MULE idea changes how many minerals the terran player has from the moment he drops his first MULE to until the map is mined out. I think you can see the difference.
I don't see the need for the sarcasm though. Did I upset you somehow?
On August 23 2011 09:06 VirgilSC2 wrote:
The MULE "nerf" I'm suggesting actually just brings it in line with the macro mechanics of the other two races.
The macro mechanics between each race are radically different. There is absolutely no logic to this statement.
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On August 23 2011 09:04 Razuik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:54 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 23 2011 08:36 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 08:29 IVN wrote:On August 23 2011 08:25 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 08:20 Teiwaz wrote:On August 23 2011 07:43 Souli wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2011 07:20 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 07:16 okrane wrote:
Dumb question: why do marines need 45hp w/o combat shield and 55hp with combat shield later in the game?
How would 10hp less to marines change the match-ups? Terrans need marines for DPS, especially in TvZ. Once aoe enters the fray, 45hp marines die. Like really fast. The problem comes from the timing between lots of marines -> aoe enters the fray. 1-1-1 nails this timing. I suggest Blizzard may swap storm research with feedback. That wouldn't only make them equal to ghosts (storm - emp) but also maybe stop the push. Any comments? That would be a horrible decision IMO as it would make a huge timing push vZ possible - at least I think that. No, I really like the "no super saturation with MULES" idea WAY better - super saturation for the race that get's the most out of a mineral surplus, yeah, great idea Blizzard... Where's this mule stuff coming from? Mules causing a headache is just a meaningless side effect of the allin being so strong that it can trap you on one base. If you aren't trapped on one base mules are fine. Only solutions I can see are a) nerf marine dps at least temporarily (give it back with upgrade) or b) slow down Terran tech so Protoss can get aoe and a decent gateway force against mass marine with support. The way I see it, the 111 push starts 2 or so mules after the mineral line has been saturated. How much is that? ~500 minerals worth of marines? Dunno but its beside the point. You don't nerf a fundamental aspect of the game like that to deal with a specific timing problem. The 1/1/1 composition is easy to deal with lategame, it's purely a timing issue. Solution is to slow Terran down, not nerf them permanently. Nerfing mules would break tvz horribly it's so reliant on marines. Well then maybe Terrans should find a way to counter Zerg without being reliant on purely marines. Nerfing MULEs is probably the one thing that should be done to bring every race's macro mechanic in line with eachother, in order to provide a more equal footing in high level play, as it is, Terrans gain a huge economic advantage for no reason other than picking Terran against Zerg or Protoss players. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a caster say "well X is ahead on Workers, but Y is getting more income because of MULEs" I think it should be noted that you all subconsciously know MULEs are OP, as people jump in this thread and talk about nerfing things like Marine HP or Marine Range, and someone comes up with a logical reason to nerf MULEs and everyone immediately reacts with "BUT THAT BREAKS THE GAME" On August 23 2011 08:40 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:31 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Not only does it take away the ridiculous advantage Terran players have in 1 Base or Equal Base situations, when dealing with this particular push in discussion, many high level Korean players find that the number of Marines it what makes this push so potent, reduce the huge advantage in mineral income, and you reduce the number of marines at this stage in the game without re-balancing any single combat unit. Terran is not automatically ahead in equal base situations. You can't just say "hey, he's mining more minerals because of mules, he must be ahead". Neither is it reasonable to expect terrans to expand at the same rate as the other races. Mules are the terrans macro boost, the "big thing" kinda like spawn larva or chronoboost/warpgates. All of them are imbalanced on paper, but it somehow balances out in the end. What you are suggesting is gutting the terrans primary macro boost because you think it could fix the 1-1-1 and everything else would be just *fine and dandy*. I really don't think you understand how big of an impact your proposed changes would have. I apologize, I left out "equal amount of workers lost to harassment" in my previous post. I'm not suggesting you "gut" Terrans macro boost, I'm not saying to remove MULEs, I'm saying that after a mineral line becomes saturated, MULEs should suffer just like every other macro mechanic a race has does. Be happy, that change would mean Scans would be more "affordable" and you could even drop supply, which is ALSO a macro mechanic Terran has, but never needs to use. On August 23 2011 08:41 aksfjh wrote:On August 23 2011 08:28 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Most "standard" Terran builds revolve around getting your OC at around 15 Supply, which, at that point in the game, Protoss/Zerg Macro mechanics have hardly kicked in enough to warrant complaint about super-saturation being necessary.
Furthermore, a nerf to MULEs regarding super-saturation does have a "side benefit" for Terrans. Since you won't be gaining a ridiculous income advantage due to MULEs, you won't mine out your bases as fast, meaning you'll be on equal footing for longer, which in turn leads to DIFFERENT timings evolving in the Terran metagame. A 4 worker difference by the time mules come into play is standard. A little more than 2 workers for chrono, then another 2+ from the 35s it takes to make an orbital (it's usually something like 38-40s since it doesn't line up perfectly). That's enough to give Protoss a few hundred resource lead, and if chrono is used even more, the lead increases until Terran saturation. Wait.....so.....one MULE doesn't make up for a 4-5 worker deficit? I'm pretty sure it does. Oh, you want us to use less of our most essential unit? Okay, let's completely rethink the entire matchup so blizzard won't feel bad when they nerf something. Your train of thought is completely puzzling to me. Oh and on mules, they offer a burst income to Terran's enconomy.. It all balances out when you look at the resources collected. Other races have the ability to produce workers much faster than terran, so it would only make sense to give us something right? Or no, probably in your biased mind it's allll okay. If you want us to learn how to use marines less in the matchup, please, oh god of the game, tell us how we could possibly do this.
I think you're overreacting.
MULE's don't offer a burst income. After your Orbital Command, with proper energy usage on nothing but MULEs, you will ALWAYS have a MULE mining. You only fall behind if you use a scan, or drop supply, which is EXACTLY the same as: Protoss using Chrono on Tech rather than Probes.
As for the versatility of the Marine in TvZ, it has nothing to do with this thread, so I'll leave it out.
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On August 23 2011 08:49 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:40 MattBarry wrote:
Who cares if foreign Terrans are bad? You should balance the game at the highest levels of play and at the highest level of play Terran is dominating. As for whether 1/1/1 is imbalanced, hmm. As a Protoss player I'm in inclined to jump the gun and say yes but it might not be. I think it should be given time.
Translation: I really hope this Terran nerf helps my level of play. I'm tired of losing to Terrans some/most/all/none of the time! The ONLY investments you have in this discussion/debate are as a viewer and as a lesser player. Since this 1-1-1 build hasn't become nearly every TvP, your investment as a viewer is a sign of caution at most. Balance among the highest levels should be the first goal of the developers, but it shouldn't be the overall goal. If Terran becomes impossible to play except at the highest levels, who in their right mind would want to practice losing so much in order to get to that high of play? We're already at a point where populations of Terran outside the tip top echelon of play are dwindling. For SC2 to be successful, all 3 races have to be viable at all levels.
I usually limit myself to watching GSL, and the build practically shows up every PvT Bo3. At times, twice, if the Terran loses game 1. And yes, it completely ruins my viewing experience.
I don't care about it much as a player, since most Terrans in Masters on EU seem incapable of defending the 3 Gate VR with it. There are builds and strategies which annoy me a lot more when I play.
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On August 23 2011 09:08 rdr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:59 hugedong wrote:
rofl people hopping on the "game is dying" bandwagon because of 1/1/1 Well it's gonna be a lot of tvt in the future, enjoy. Or maybe your gonna get so bored that even you realise the power of 1/1/1 i dont even watch tvt anymore in tournaments if it isnt a final, but thats just me.
Keep in mind, you are concluding that it will be all terran all the time after 1 MLG and not ever 1 full GSL. Just because a tournament is dominated by a race once, doesn't mean we should all call balance into question by suggesting ridiculous balance changes that effects the entire race's viability.
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EPT
